Back to that pesky data, casualty stats (using Al Jazeera data) for operation protective edge (up till 19th July):
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@gonzy you've descended back to personal insults once again. If you want a discussion based on different points of view you'll have to restrain yourself.
You are quite correct in that Jews and Muslims lived together for 1000's of years (I said the same myself) but since the formation of Israel that changed as I posted from the 50's onwards Jews wehre expelled from Northern Africa (Morocco/Tunisia)and their homes and possessions effectively stolen.
The kidnap took place in the West Bank as that is where the most Jews where to be found and where they move about relatively freely. It's only 50 miles from Gaza. Those who live nearer Gaza are far more cautious and certainly wouldn't hitch hike.
@notter, thanks for your post I hadn't seen that. I only saw the original BBC piece.
I read that Israel has located 66 tunnels with 25 different access points and over 1000 missiles, I hope once these have been destroyed they will think that is sufficient.
I hope the cease-fire talks are successful. Hamas will have to drop the open borders demand as Israel will not agree to it and I suspect neither will Egypt.
@gonzy on the rape comment above I would say there are extreme views on both sides on this conflict. It does not surprise me to see some Israeli's with appalling views such as this.
you've descended back to personal insults once again
how can my opinion that you are talking out of your backside be seen as a personal insult??
do you hear me crying because i got accused of being an anti-semite..then a nazi...and finally a jihadist??..or maybe like my fellow muslims in Gaza i should accept it as it IS my fault whereas you and your fellow Zionists are the victims?
Just to reinforce the title of this whole thread - The head of UN human rights Navi Pillay has stated that she believes Israel's may have commited war crimes.
I am sure supporters of Israel will now come spouting hysterics like "The UN is one sided bla bla bla"
Not that it matters what the UN think, Israel will just ignore them and not co-operate with any investigations, why should they?
The kidnap took place in the West Bank as that is where the most Jews where to be found and where they move about relatively freely. It's only 50 miles from Gaza. Those who live nearer Gaza are far more cautious and certainly wouldn't hitch hike.
it still doesnt answer my original question of why Gaza is being destroyed over a crime that was committed in the West Bank. For all we know the perpetrators are still holed up in the West Bank...you seem to be quite good at avoiding the issue here...ever considered a career in Israeli politics?
@gonzy - I didn't call you any of those things and If I had of done I would have apologised. I avoided this thread for quite a while after the first round of insults. I can just ignore it and let you all agree with each other. What is happening is terrible on that we can agree.
you just don't seem to get it though...you agree for centuries that Jews and Muslims have lived peacefully alongside each other....but under whose rule was that?
i'll answer for you...it was always under Islamic rule that the Jewish populations were given freedom and protection from persecution. history has shown again and again that the saviour/ally/protector of the Jewish people has always been Islam...yet now look what is happening...
60+years of rule and the Jewish faith has been dragged into the gutter of murder, cruelty, barbarism and downright greed over land. this isn't the doing of the faith itself but more to do with it being hijacked by a bunch of thieving, morally corrupt and devilish Zionist scumbags.
after what they have put the Palestinian people through since they came to power...what did you expect?
did you expect them to roll over and allow the persecution?
as victims of such persecution in the past you would have thought the people of Israel had learnt something...but no, instead they are taking out their blood vengeance on the very people who gave them sanctuary.
I didn't call you any of those things and If I had of done I would have apologised.
i didnt say it was you...but they have been some of the things that have been thrown at me by those who oppose my criticism of Israel...but i wont let it get to me as at the end of the day comments like this are designed to incite anger and it seems that there is a mentality within the pro-Israel/zionist camp that whenever they are criticised they express their shock and anger at being criticised and take it as some sort of insult...and then they start to play the "we are the victim" card.
like i said what i said about you talking out of your beckside was my opinion on your views and were not meant as a personal insult.
it still doesnt answer my original question of why Gaza is being destroyed over a crime that was committed in the West Bank. For all we know the perpetrators are still holed up in the West Bank...you seem to be quite good at avoiding the issue here...ever considered a career in Israeli politics?
Because there is a very clear link to Hamas. I know you don't think so but others do.
Some (many?) on the Palestinian side never accepted the creation of Israel. So much has happened now it's pointless (and impossible) to say who "started it" but I first heard of suicide bombing it was against Israeli's. As for quoting old scriptures Salman Rushdie did that and caused a lot of offense. I suppose you can say the Jewish faith has been dragged down by this in the same way as Islam has been twisted to justify extremist terrorism.
Because there is a very clear link to Hamas. I know you don't think so but others do.
the ones who seem to be adamant that it is Hamas are the Israeli government and the IDF...historically Hamas have always claimed responsibility for their actions against Israel...but it it surprising that they havent claimed responsibility for the 3 boys...which leads me to the conclusion that it wasnt them.
Some (many?) on the Palestinian side never accepted the creation of Israel.
well what do you expect? did you think that every Palestinian would be happy about giving up a portion of their land to anyone? if i put it into a new context for you...you may be happy to give me a room on your house but your wife resists this...you give me the room anyway...but then i take over the house which further infuriates her and she ends up going to war with me as i drive you and your family into the garden shed.
again i'll reiterate this point here for you Jambalaya...i have no issue whatsoever with Judaism. Judaism isnt the problem but Zionism is. at the end of WW2 scores of European Jews who had been driven out of their homes and now needed somewhere to live away from persecution were granted land within Palestine...much to the dismay and disapproval fo the Palestinians and the Arab world. those European Jews who migrated to this new country were not of the same mentality as the native Jews who had been peacefully living in Palestine already for centuries. This new breed of Jew was a follower of the Zionist movement and in order to give their movement some credibility they called the country Israel under the context that thousands of years ago in the bible the holy land had been promised to the children of Israel by God.
they have since continued to hide behind Judaism whilst dragging the religion into the ground and using their so called Israeli identity and Jewish faith as a so called reason to steal land and to kill and dehumanise Palestinians.
that is why thousands of Orthodox Jews around the world are so opposed to Zionism as they can see that what it stands for is not what Judaism stands for. Those who would voice the same opinion form inside Israel are too scared to do so as they fear the repercussions from the zionsts.
Ah, Mehdi Hasan?
This Mehdi Hasan?
Can any religion claim a moral high ground - they are all utterly mental in their extremes and the various acts committed in the name of god over the course of history proves this...
The issue here is humanitarian, simple fact, a group of people took land by force (England) gave it to another group of people (The Jews of that time) who then proceeded to 'occupy' (or steal) additional land from the group of people who originally resided there.
Take an animal, back it into a corner and antagonise it, at some point it gonna fight back.
Doesn't make firing fireworks over the border right as it is an indiscriminate form of attack but what are they meant to do? Watch their garden shrink and standard of living diminish?
Problem would be solved if - Hamas F@CK off somewhere, Israel stop occupying more land and lift stringent border control allowing a decent standard of living to return.
Of course this will never happen... who knows where this will all end, I expect with the removal of Gaza and its people from the map one way or another....
I said this last week on FB and was flamed- Hamas causing an excuse to anexe the Gaza strip. Now the IDF are demolishing homes and commiting Genocide/ethnic cleansing.
Next there will be Jewish settlements on the strip.
mSome points in here surprised me. Shooting Palestinian children isnt a war crime ? www.aljazeera.com/story/201472272438651885
The Israelis will simply invent an excuse to attack Gaza, like they have on this occasion.
No one needs to give the Israelis an excuse.
@ ninfan....your point about mehdi hasan being?
I watched the clip you posted and yes he talks of taking the moral high ground...and in the current gaza context it would be to not deliberately target women and children...but the IDF seems incapable or more to the point simply does not want to.
But listening to the rest of the video he talks about nuclear weapons not being permissable in islam. He agrees with what ayatollah Khomeini stated about this and then mentions ****stans nuclear programme....it sounded to me like he was about to condemn ****stan and condemn their double standards...so i fail to see what is wrong.
Plus criticising him is a bit irrelevant and taking things off topic....but its another example of your diversionary tactics of not addressing the situation at hand
The Israelis will simply invent an excuse to attack Gaza, like they have on this occasion.No one needs to give the Israelis an excuse.
How many Israelis have to die before you think they are justified in defending themselves?
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How many Israelis have to die before you think they are justified in defending themselves?
You are claiming that Gaza was attacked because Israelis had died, ffs have you no shame ? Aren't you embarrassed spouting nonsense like that ?
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Hilarious isn't it 🙄
You are claiming that Gaza was attacked because Israelis had died, ffs have you no shame ? Aren't you embarrassed spouting nonsense like that ?
How many Israelis would have to die before they were allowed to defend themselves? Put a number on it.
Tom Israel are not defending themselves they are collectively punishing civilians . Did you see the film of the 4 boys targeted on the beach and shelled . or the unarmed man in green searching for relatives shot by a sniper then shot again and again as he lay in the open while other unarmed observers in flouresent yellow were pinned down and unable to help. How does a three minute warning by phone to one occupant of a residential tower block before it is destroyed fit in with self defense .
Reprinting a propaganda poster adds nothing .
In answer to your question Israeli forces can take reasonable proportionate steps to prevent a single death . If that was what they were doing I would support them . However this is not self-defense.
Reprinting a propaganda poster adds nothing
Tom gave up trying to defend the actions of the Israeli government in any sort of meaningful way some time back, when he realised how ineffective regurgitating zionist propaganda was, he's now reduced to making occasional troll-like comments, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously.
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And on a more serious note :
[url= http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-07-23/un-one-child-killed-in-gaza-every-hour-for-past-two-days/ ]UN: One child killed in Gaza every hour for past two days[/url]
[i]ffs have you no shame ? Aren't you embarrassed spouting nonsense like that ?[/i]
clearly ernie, the answer is no, they have no shame.
Actually on reflection that poster does prove how effective the Israeli defense mechanism is in comparison to Hamas .Hama's have been unable to penetrate iron dome while the IDF have gleefully battered their way through the human shield of hamas. Personally I am not sure that you can use the term human sheid to describe a scenario where by the aggressor herds targets and civilians into a confined space and then starts lobbing mass effect weapons in with little regard to targeting.
Israel really wants to alien itself from the world. They don't like being popular do they.
hora - MemberIsrael really wants to alien itself from the world. They don't like being popular do they
Historically, have Jews ever been popular as a community? (I don't mean that in an individual manner)
They don't care what joe public thinks, there are enough people in hight places that it doesn't matter one little bit.
[url= http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721?v=9328D951C29F2365084636962340486B ]Here is a very reasoned explanation as to why Israel is losing support[/url] from around the world.
The fact it was written in 2006 is neither here nor there as it is even more relevant with the worlds opinion today.
Personally I am not sure that you can use the term human sheid to describe a scenario where by the aggressor herds targets and civilians into a confined space and then starts lobbing mass effect weapons in with little regard to targeting.
Agreed. Isn't truth usually the first casualty in war, before the bodies start piling up?
The effective (sic) propagandist most often portrays a target to be in someway sub-human/sub-cultured. Here is the [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html ]Independent's report on so-called 'human shields'[/url]
How does a three minute warning by phone to one occupant of a residential tower block before it is destroyed fit in with self defense .
try 57 seconds...
@Tom you must find this to be absolutely hilarious...
it just goes to show that you are as sub-human as those Zionist pigs you're defending
Historically, have Jews ever been popular as a community? (I don't mean that in an individual manner)They don't care what joe public thinks, there are enough people in hight places that it doesn't matter one little bit.
I can't really type what I'm thinking. It'll just come across wrong on this tbh and read bad.
Updated data
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Interestingly, demographics wise males 18-28 make up about 12% of the population, so are heavily overrepresented in the data, while approx 43% of the Gaza population is under 14 so underrepresented.
Sad as every death might be, a dispassionate look at the data certainly doesn't point toward random or untargeted strikes.
I can't really type what I'm thinking. It'll just come across wrong on this tbh and read bad.
seeing the images and videos of the carnage and the suffering the Israelis are causing really makes my blood boil.
i find myself having to be very careful in what i say and how i say it.
feeling this amount of anger...i'm surprised i've managed to restrain myself here.
although some of the pro-zionists, with their goading and trolling have at times crossed that line with what they have said, i'm glad to say that the vast majority of supporters for Palestine have not stooped to their level and refused to make that angry emotional response that the pro-zionists want...
i wont mention any names as there are too many but you guys know who i'm talking about...on behalf of my fellow muslims who are suffering in Gaza and the rest of Palestine i would like to say well done and thank you for your dignified support.
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I am really not sure why you engage with such an obvious troll
The IDF have also used Palestinians as human shields, so they don't even have the moral high ground on that one that keeps getting trotted out.
I don't think the words 'moral high ground' and IDF belong in the same sentence.
Sad as every death might be, a dispassionate look at the data certainly doesn't point toward random or untargeted strikes.
Who created that bar chart and based on whose figures?
The final tragedy is that the actions of the IDF only hasten an endgame where the anti-semitic objectives of all their neighbouring Islamists in the region (of "driving Israel into the sea") triumph, as international support wanes because they are behaving like a bunch of Nazis.
Sad as every death might be, a dispassionate look at the data certainly doesn't point toward random or untargeted strikes.
If it is targeted then the civilian bit must be targeted
What's the point of a 57 second warning? Unless you want to terrorize someone and their family just before you execute them.
There are some very sick people in the IDF.
It is a barking situation one country steals the land from another does a complete blockade of them whilst stealing their land and then considers them terrorists for getting upset by this and defending themselves
Imagine if the arabs did this to israel- full blockade and land grab and were slowly driving Israel into the sea - would they defend themselves?
The world community really needs to react to this as it is indefensible
What's the point of a 57 second warning? Unless you want to terrorize someone and their family just before you execute them.There are some very sick people in the IDF.
They see the Arabs as subhumans? To be executed?
[b][u]Ethnically cleanse the area?[/u][/b] Of course I'm happy to be proven wrong on this but if the IDF announces in a week that they are going to permanently station troops there ...then a settlement and the settlement then needs security to protect them?
They see the Arabs as subhumans? To be executed?
of course...why else would they target civilians?
i dont buy into their justification for attacking hospitals, schools and residential buildings...
that "Hamas fired a rocket form within the ground or from nearby so we levelled the place"..its a load of bollocks
when you have 1.8 million people crammed into a piece of land that measures 25 miles long by 4-8 miles wide...where else are these militants expected to wage their resistance from.
yes just like Israel has a right to defend itself so have the Palestinians...more so considering the disproportionate bombardment they are facing.
also how can the IDF justify levelling a building by using the above excuse? do you really think after firing a rocket Hamas militants are going to hag around for a few hours to see if the Israelis shoot back at them? most of the time with this type of urban warfare you fire a shot then move on...staying as a moving target makes you harder to catch/kill...the IDF know this but it doesnt stop them from levelling nay building they see fit...which takes me back to my belief that the atrocities they are committing are deliberate and that women and mainly children are being systematically targeted and killed.
if the IDF announces in a week that they are going to permanently station troops there ...then a settlement and the settlement then needs security to protect them?
that's always been part of the plan Hora...there is a massive gas reserve off the coast of Gaza...the Israelis have already started to export it out even though it actually belongs to the Palestinians.
they now need the Palestinians out of the way so they can carry on this theft...in doing so they will also gain the Gaza strip so the land gain comes as a bonus.
this is why the assault on Gaza has been a pre-emptive strike that was carefully planned out by the Israeli government and the IDF...to gain more land and secure the gas supply that they have stolen.
they needed a reason to go in so they used the cover of the 3 boys being killed by Hamas.
i dont buy into their justification for attacking hospitals, schools and residential buildings...
that "Hamas fired a rocket form within the ground or from nearby so we levelled the place"..its a load of bollocks
Sorry, are you saying that Hamas are [b]not[/b] firing rockets from hospitals, schools and residential buildings?
or are you saying that them doing so does not suspend the protection of the civilian facility? (if so, one has to wonder why the drafters of the Geneva conventions and associated commentary wasted whole chapters explaining the exact circumstances in which protection of civilian buildings and hospitals ceased)
