Forum menu
Lets be honest, if someone the size of Will Smith actually slapped you with the exaggerated back swing hat was evident in that clip, you wouldn't be standing there as composed as that and just carry on.
The man is 6'2" - compared to 5'8" of Chris Rock - and has been in the gym solidly since piling on the lock-down pounds, so it all points to a stage managed act to get a bit more publicity or the slightly maligned affair that is the Oscars.
Watched the Guardian version - so definitely real. I mean they are both good actors, but not good enough to have come up with those reactions. Staged version of that would've been quite different.
The bully’s and the scumbags are usually the people demeaning you, for theirs and others amusement.
Christ, i had that by the tonnage when i was a kid, but i knew the ones who were bully's, and the ones who were just joking, there's a big difference!
Yeah, I never found jokes about my ethnicity funny.
OK. So there’s a bird onstage and she makes the joke. Will Smith gets up there and tw4ts her.
You bunch of sexist idiots.
In your fantasy binary turnabout world wouldn’t the bird*female host get slapped by another bird female actor for having insulted her husband?
BTW ironing
I do enjoy a good Will Smith movie though
Funnily enough I tried to watch Gemini Man last night. It wasn’t a good film (although I’m not convinced this was the fault of Smith)
In your fantasy binary turnabout world wouldn’t the birdfemale host get slapped by another bird female actor for having insulted her husband?
I think the point he is making is that our reactions towards violence, either received or perpetrated, tends to be highly coloured by the gender of the people involved and is thus not consistent. I think that posts point is that this is perhaps hypocritical and problematic given that men are far more likely to be victims of violent attacks. That's how I read it.
The idea that this was staged is laughable. If they were going to stage something it would be to improve the image of the event, not to degrade it.
I thought it was great. We live in world where people have a mindset where they feel they can say & write what they like about people without consequence, even mocking someone's medical condition. Assault can be mental as well as physical, Chris threw the first punch imo.
Good on Will S.
Must say I thought Chris rock took that slap pretty damn well
I don’t particularly condone it, but if you take the piss out of someone’s wife’s Illness, you are always going to risk a kick in.
Try it down the local pub, 25% of the time I wager you’d get more than a slap.
Yeah, I never found jokes about my ethnicity funny.
But do you find parallels between what you experienced and what the Smiths experienced?
I read somewhere that quoted Jada Pinkett Smith as saying she was 'going to be friends with her alopecia.' To me it sounds like she was trying to accept it and maybe Chris Rock thought that meant it was OK to joke about. From her reaction I'd say he judged that wrong.
Will Smith apparently thought it was OK at first too. I wonder if his reaction came from guilt about laughing at it and then realising his wife was actually upset by it.
Wherever it came from, it was completely wrong. The fact he was then allowed to go and receive his Oscar was even worse though.
Comedy is always very finely balanced, and the best comedians practice a lot on smaller audiences and know when and where to deliver specific material. Sometimes it goes wrong and you misjudge things. I don’t think I’d be trying out any edgy roasts at the Oscars though, that seems prettt obvious.
Thing is, it's not 'Comedy' as such, it's an awards show. You can't really make it funny because it's just not.
I can't help thinking 'merican comedy, especially when their mainstream comics start trying to be "edgy" is just varying degrees of personal cruelty, like they've not quite gotten it yet. I reckon yank humour is about 20-30 years behind us, far more advanced, Brits.
Try it down the local pub, 25% of the time I wager you’d get more than a slap.
Sure but this is back to understandable versus acceptable. If you're saying that it's acceptable (I understand you might not be saying that) in some instances for one person to hit another in response to a verbal goading, then we are going run into some problems down the line.
He/she was asking for it is a deeply problematic defence that really shouldn't need to be either explained or debated.
perhaps hypocritical and problematic given that men are far more likely to be victims of violent attacks. That’s how I read it
That too is how I read it, only in Monday Morning Devil’s Advocate mode 😉
Next week - is the term ‘bird’ sexist?
Assault can be mental as well as physical, Chris threw the first punch imo.
That being the case then surely a proportional response could/should have been ‘mental’ also? A few choice words in a mic (from his mightily privileged platform) would have put things straight and may have arguably seated the offender down harder and more resoundingly than would any physical slap?
Next week – is the term ‘bird’ sexist?
Yeah I think the oringal point would have been better received had he not used that particular term!
Also, even if not pressing charges, would the Police not have to get involved anyway?
They split up long ago, and I'm not sure would be much use in a fight anyway. I'd rather have The Clash or someone like that on my side. Definitely not the Human League.
I've come full circle and decided maybe it wasn't staged. With Jusse Smollet recently going to jail for staging an assault, it seems a little too 'on the nose'.
(No pun intended?)
I reckon (sic) yank humour is about 20-30 years behind us, far more advanced, Brits
Whereas I estimate (with great sadness) that British culture (including what passes for ‘humour’) is of now roughly 20 7 years ‘behind*’ US culture and accelerating via the exponential spread of tinternets. Before long we’ll be laughing at ‘the homeless’ and applauding our own jokes/ourselves. Wait, do they applaud themselves or are they applauding the applause?
#whoclapstheclappers
*in chronological and entropic terms.
… thinking about it, Phil Oakey might actually be pretty handy.
If you're going to get violent, best do it properly.
I remember a story about Jerry Sadowitz getting punched out cold by an audience member at a comedy night in Canada by insulting them about the languages they spoke
recorded the live show last night, just watched it back. uncut, no bleeping - no way on earth its staged
Yeah I think the oringal point would have been better received had he not used that particular term!
I thought it was written deliberately using that language to emphasise the gender argument?
Imagine being that naïve that you think this wasn't staged. Terrifying.
Just watched it. Will Smith is clearly going through a tough time; that's a man cracking up right in front of the cameras.
I hope he takes some time out of the public eye; to work through things and get himself better.
I'd be surprised if Chris Rock hasn't experienced stronger reactions than this before.
I really hate the way these hosts 'comedy' is going which seems to basically be about belittling and insulting people.
Couldn't watch Gervais. Makes me cringe.
You can see the celebs chuckling away with it, but then they have cameras pointed at them and are under enormous scrutiny. They HAVE to go along with the joke.
I think that's what Will was doing here until it got too much and he could see that his wife was not taking it well.
It's not ok to attack someone physically, but neither is it to attack verbally, even if you say it's comedy, which seems to be something that's supposed to excuse almost anything.
Nobody looked good here, but, it was only a matter of time.
People are human.
Understandable and acceptable are two different things.
Absolutely this. It is possible to empathise with Smith, and understand what drove him to act as he did. But no, the manner of his response was not acceptable. Justified anger still shouldn't result in a punch in this situation. Demanding an apology would have made the point, while also giving Rock the chance to right the perceived wrong. Smith has power in this situation, he's not an unheard nobody, he could stand up and be heard.
If you watch the un-censored version (the Guardian clip on page 2 of this thread), it doesn't look staged. It also looks like Will Smith wasn't fully "seeing red", because we know he could probably have really flattened Rock if he was.
For all the "well he's laughing until he looks at his wife" people - have you ever been to a comedy gig? Or a show with audience laughter? Laughter is a collective thing, people in a crowd oftern instinctively do it when they hear other people doing it - and then think later about whether they _really_ found that joke funny. The timing doesn't look like Smith's going "ha ha, mocking my wife", he's laughing because the camera's on him, then there's a moment when he twigs and looks to his wife and realises that joke caused offence. Then he's angry.
Whatever your views on him, he behaved in anger (but not necessarily in all-out rage). He's way too professional to swear on live TV, he knows in the USA that's very career-damaging.
And as for them being actors, yes of course they are, but the timing and the language and the way Rock just stands there dumbfounded (and slightly wonky-mouthed) after being slapped for a few moments: it would have been much slicker if it was staged and they wouldn't have permitted any swearing. Watch any out-take reels, most actors swear a _lot_ when they know it's not going to be used. And they instinctively know when to switch it off, or stay in character. And the polished professional performance you see on film may well be the 200th time that that actor has been filmed to "nail" that shot.
The editing (or rather, vision mixing) also doesn't look like it was staged - each nominee would have had a camera on them, and if they knew Will Smith was going to get out of his seat in anger, they'd have _definitely_ planned to capture that moment, and track his march up to the stage.
I remember a story about Jerry Sadowitz getting punched out cold by an audience member at a comedy night in Canada by insulting them about the languages they spoke
Shortest comedy gig ever. 🙂
Iirc, he took to the stage, introduced himself to the audience with 'Hello moose ****ers!' and was then sparkled by a member of the audience.
I still crack up every time I think about it.
No one seems to have mentioned that Will Smith was laughing at the joke before he decided he wasn’t going to laugh at it.
...
It’s very weird.
It is weird. Watch the clip when it cuts back to them. Chris is making a joke, Will is laughing along with him, Jada looks seriously unimpressed with an "oh FFS" expression on her face. It cuts away so we don't see what happens next, then we see Will striding purposefully across the stage and then appearing to give Chris a slap.
Though, remind me again what Will Smith does for a living? I'm not wholly convinced he made contact at all. A grown man giving another a slap, who even does that? Someone the size of Will Smith so incensed that he's driven to violence in front of his peers, Chris Rock should've landed somewhere in the Lower Circle.
The only thing about that entire exchange that seemed genuine was Will effing and jeffing after he'd sat back down.
This is also a man who is apparently happy for his wife to have multiple affairs.
Really not seeing the relevance of that.
And having read Pierre's simultaneous posting, I'm now not sure again. Valid points all.
I can’t help thinking ‘merican comedy, especially when their mainstream comics start trying to be “edgy” is just varying degrees of personal cruelty
American culture is more combative and has a lot more toxic masculinity. This is visible in many films and TV shows, albeit far more pre 2000s. On top of that, there is a lot more hero worship, and those heros are consequently indulged more.
Can you imagine this happening at the BAFTAs?
Storm in a publicity fuelled tea cup.
He slapped him. Right? Few witnesses. Assault is assault. I'm more shocked noone ever ****ted Gervais tbh.
So, lots of people still think it's OK to assault people because of words they said.
Okayyy. Nice.
But not women though, right? We don't hit women.
Somebody call the 1950's. The decade wants it's attitudes back.
(It's clearly kept hold of all of the IQs).
He slapped him. Right? Few witnesses. Assault is assault. I’m more shocked noone ever ****ted Gervais tbh.
Yeah, Ricky Gervais went for the throat a few times with Hollywood, just watch his interactions with Mel Gibson from a few years back and the more recent stuff he's done.
I just see this as a bit publicity thing that's gone completely wrong for the Smiths, honestly, we're talking about a weird married couple who have had several Oprah style TV outings about their marriage troubles, Will has sat there quietly nodding his head for Jada, but he completely loses it over this, all we need now is the Smith kids to get back in the limelight now to sell something or other.
For all the “well he’s laughing until he looks at his wife” people – have you ever been to a comedy gig? Or a show with audience laughter? Laughter is a collective thing, people in a crowd oftern instinctively do it when they hear other people doing it – and then think later about whether they _really_ found that joke funny. The timing doesn’t look like Smith’s going “ha ha, mocking my wife”, he’s laughing because the camera’s on him, then there’s a moment when he twigs and looks to his wife and realises that joke caused offence. Then he’s angry.
Thank you, this has been bugging me (people saying 'he found it funny initially').
These actors live in this weird bubble of smiling for the cameras at all moments. Even if they don't find the jokes funny, they have to look like they're having a great time. To me it didn't look like he was actually laughing at the joke anyway, it looked like the kind of strained smile when he was expecting when being 'roasted' and he knows he's supposed to take it all in good humour.
It's going to take a couple of seconds to go from laughing / smiling politely to losing your shit.
Someone mentioned Sadowitz?:
If they wanted harmless controversy they'd have just mixed the envelopes up again. Not staged violence and profanity.
As if will smith would have wanted this to overshadow him winning an oscar. He ruined what should have been the best moment of his career.
Fair play to Chris Rock though, for not reacting aggressively, maintaining his composure and for hardly budging when he was bitchslapped!
Assuming it was all genuine, it'd would've been fair play to Chris Rock to apologise to her before desperately trying to seek a follow-on gag.
it goes against everything Comics believe. Chris Rock feels he should be free to express his comedy as way he wants to, if people laugh then it can’t be wrong?
There's just one flaw here though, and that's that this is bollocks. Cf: Borat in redneck America.
I'm pro-comedy and anti-censorship. I've watched far darker acts than snotty little pissants like Chris Rock. But a frankly wholly unfunny cheap shot publicly mocking someone's medical condition when their husband is sitting next to them... Yeah, I'm behind Chris Rock's right to make that joke, but I'm also behind Will Smith's right to put him on his arse for it. You'd have to be monumentally stupid or naive to make that sort of demeaning personal attack 'joke' without accepting that there might be repercussions (or concussions) from doing so.
If you're going to target someone and especially if you're going to do it personally in front of others, they have to be in on it, this is the difference between 'banter' and 'bullying'. Banter is what happens between mates when there's a tacit understanding that it's OK. If I were Jada and a best friend made an Action Man joke I'd laugh along (if, y'know, they'd at least made a slight effort, hey Jada I've got my Eagle Eye on you for the next award) but coming from a random stranger in the street I'd be seriously unimpressed. Coming from a stranger intentionally embarrassing me in front of a roomful of peers and potential employers, yeah, I'd probably have wanted to spark him out myself. How chummy CR and WS/JPS are, I do not know.
Can you imagine this happening at the BAFTAs?
I can totally envisage Helen Mirren decking Ricky Gervais.
I'm going for the 'it was staged' view tbh
However
Not sure if I'd resort to fists if someone took the mick out of my wife's medical condition - I've never thrown a punch in 50 years. They'd certainly get to know that it's not alright though
It wasn't a punch it was a flat open handed slap, because paper beats Rock.
....joke nicked from twitter
Was all a bit weird but won't harm anyone's career and Oscars would be made up with the publicity from it. Violence sells however twisted that seems....
it goes against everything Comics believe. Chris Rock feels he should be free to express his comedy as way he wants to, if people laugh then it can’t be wrong?
Ah, yes... the Jimmy Carr defence?
I absolutely agree that you're entitled to say whatever you like, with the proviso that you then have to be prepared to take the reaction that it provokes. You don't get to say whatever you like with impunity
It's funny. @Cougar's come out in favour of the violence is OK in response to words camp too.
Based on previous conversations I'm unsurprised. People seem to be falling on the sides you expect them to - and the anti-freedom-of-speech brigade (who, of course, believe in "free" speech - with "limits") are also a bit pro-actual-violence in the face of jokes they find off-colour.
Very interesting. (If predictable).
Yeah, I’m behind Chris Rock’s right to make that joke, but I’m also behind Will Smith’s right to put him on his arse for it.
It's easy to feel some symptahy for what Will Smith did but if you think about the logic of what you're saying here, you're ostensibly saying that if someone upsets or offends you then you have the right to hit them. That just cannot be right in any civilised society.
but I’m also behind Will Smith’s right to put him on his arse for it.
So you'd be cool if Will Smith gave Rebel Wilson a slap for making a joke about their marriage?