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If anyone is interested in the interconnectors, here's two I've worked on but there are others in the generic bottom link
http://www2.nationalgrid.com/About-us/European-business-development/Interconnectors/Iceland/
http://www2.nationalgrid.com/About-us/European-business-development/Interconnectors/
Hinkley decision postponed for two months http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35873786
you guys just lose interest once you've had your argumentgasm don't you
Can't read the leaked engineer report behind the paywall myself but looks interesting http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35925637
Well you should probably stock up on candles and a mini generator. Currently waiting for heavy rain to fill our dams to produce electric here as our mainland connection is down till mid June.
so (according to the BBC articles)
the UK statagey to ensure we can meet projected demand has been:
to sell British Energy to the French State owned company EGF,
which seems to be in dire financial trouble
which is...
being bailed out by China's government for a 33% stake in Hinkley C
which is ...
based on technology that is not yet developed and has been delayed numerous time for safety concerns
then ...
commiting to purchase the energy well above the market price
and..
wanting to ensure consumers foot the bill.
Dr Wyman .... might look expensive today, she says, but she argues it boasts the advantage of being generated within the UK, helping the country become more energy [b]self-sufficient[/b].
does this really make any sense?
It will be built their is French pride at stake, Hollande has personally said it will go ahead and EDF have been promised a cash injection from the french government apparently. EDF can't afford to cock this one up, it is their demonstrator to the rest of the world of their nuclear capabilities.
There's lots of quotes about how the agreed price per MWH is higher than the going market rate for energy - but how does it compare with the price of other non-carbon based sources? (And I note here that that price might shoot up massively if renewables had to expand to provide base load)
why would the Chineese state want to buy into this?
future bargaining chip?
If it is such a good investment why does the UK not put in a 1/3rd?
Can't read the leaked engineer report behind the paywall myself but looks interesting
basically says that the engineers building reckon it will over run by years after the deadline when our existing plants will be shut down
it also says the chinese also think it will overrun and want guaranteed compensation from the uk government
(osbornes bet the house on china helping us out, so Im sure theyll get it too, protecting china's cheap steel imports are more important than jobs and communities in Port Talbot after all)
kimbers - Memberbasically says that [s]the engineers building[/s] literally everyone reckons it will over run by years after the deadline when our existing plants will be shut down
FTFY. (I don't like FTFY but I couldn't resist, for this one)
dragon - MemberEDF can't afford to cock this one up, it is their demonstrator to the rest of the world of their nuclear capabilities.
Flamanville 3 is supposed to demonstrate their nuclear capabilities to the rest of the world. I suppose it has- 6 other countries have binned plans to buy these plants from France. Including France.
There's lots of quotes about how the agreed price per MWH is higher than the going market rate for energy - but how does it compare with the price of other non-carbon based sources? (And I note here that that price might shoot up massively if renewables had to expand to provide base load)
it's been touched on earlier in the thread and you can look up strike price of recent cfd's online eg http://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1335815/uk-awards-first-cfd-round. "CfDs guarantee developers a price for the electricity produced for 15 years. The average price awarded for onshore wind was £80.57/MWh while offshore projects averaged £117.14/MWh"
Renewables price are falling all the time - the key things here are the length of the contract for Hinkley is very long in comparison, and the amount of energy we are committing to buying at that price is massively higher than that of renewables developments, making it a comparitively much more expensive investment, hence the fuss.
An indication of prices falling is given by the German market:
Compared to German offshore prices, the payment rate for projects going on line in 2015, 2016 and 2017 is €194/MWh for eight years, falling to €39/MWh (approximately equal to wholesale market price) for the following 12 years.Alternatively, project owners in Germany can choose a lower rate of €154/MWh for the longer period of 12 years followed by €39/MWh for the following eight years.
If it is such a good investment why does the UK not put in a 1/3rd?
Because it isn't. All the talk of UK taxpayers subsidising nos amis in France was poppycock (see previous thread). Lots of aggro when your try to explain you investment maths works!!! reality comes home to roost eventually
Actual footage from the trilateral negotiations has emeged
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[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36903904 ]Hinkley Point: Surprise delay for nuclear plant deal[/url]
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It's hardly a surprise, EDF themselves only voted to go ahead by 10 votes to 7. I'd be more surprised if it goes ahead than doesn't I think.
How much has been spent on it already
As I understand it the Johnson/Lumley Graden bridge has already had over £30m spent on it 😯
Im willing to bet hinckley's al;ready incurred many multiples of that
A lot no doubt, it's part of life with big developments though. Even the comparatively small offshore wind farms that RSPB successfully stopped last week will have had many many millions spent on them already.
[I]A lot no doubt, it's part of life with big developments though. [/I]
Yep. Crossrail had folk working on it from before 1991, so a full 20 years before the project really 'started'.
IS this fallout from Brexit?
I've heard of people buying houses based on the jobs this created. I feel very bad for those people if this is going to lead to large redundancies in the Southwest.
No drama. Parliament is due it's summer break. New cabinet etc, so this will probably be discussed when the Government next meets after the break.
[I]No drama. Parliament is due it's summer break. New cabinet etc, so this will probably be discussed when the Government next meets after the break.[/I]
except that the investors may decide that the risk isn't now worth it for the price, so want a higher price for the electricity...
IS this fallout from Brexit?
It was a crazy project before brexit so maybe not, but if brexit adds to the risks generated by it inevitably massively overrunning in time and budget then it might be. Speculation on speculation really. EDF weren't exactly all behind it so it isn't surprising the government aren't either.
hugely overpriced piece of civil and mechanical steam raising engine, reduce consumption, switch off lights on motorways, building floodlighting, and many other engery waste streams, and spend the cash saved on low engergy products.
[I]hugely overpriced piece of civil and mechanical steam raising engine, reduce consumption, switch off lights on motorways, building floodlighting, and many other engery waste streams, and spend the cash saved on low engergy products. [/I]
Yep agree, do all that but we'll still need new power stations otherwise we'll be short. So FFS someone make a decision!
we also have interconectors between ireland and France for power, what happens when we leave the eec, even less power available, best to stock up on AA batteries now
Below is a list of existing and future interconnectors.
As with other major infrastructure projects future interconnectors face a range of challenges that can impact on timing of delivery. The estimated delivery dates shown below reflects our understanding of developers existing delivery plans for future interconnectors.
PROJECT NAME DEVELOPERS CONNECTING COUNTRY CAPACITY CAP AND FLOOR REGIME? EXEMPTION? DELIVERY DATE/ ESTIMATED DELIVERY DATE
IFA National Grid Interconnector Holdings (NGIH) and RTE France 2000MW No No 1986
Moyle Mutual Energy Ireland 500MW* No No 2002
BritNed NGIH and TenneT Netherlands 1000MW No Yes (Second Package) 2011
EWIC EirGrid Ireland 500MW No No 2012
ElecLink Star Capital Partners Limited and Groupe Eurotunnel France 1000MW No Yes (Third Package) 2019
NEMO NGIH and Elia Belgium 1000MW Yes No 2019
NSN NGIH and Statnett Norway 1400MW Yes No 2020
FAB Link Transmission Investment and RTE France 1400MW Yes No 2022
IFA2 NGIH and RTE France 1000MW Yes No 2020
Viking NGIH and Energinet.dk Denmark 1000MW Yes No 2022
Greenlink Element Power Ireland 500MW Yes No 2021
So build a few gas power stations to fill the gaps in renewables until we can design something else that a) doesn't cost so much. b) works.
Hinckley is a lemon.
This seems a really bad deal.
I'm glad that the new government hasn't just ploughed ahead and signed up.
But, I don't know what their reasons are for delaying the decision.
Pause for thought, evaluate the options, decide.
Our requirement for electricity isn't going to change markedly given Brexit. IMO this delay is May wanting to look at the project again before signing it off on "her watch"
Maybe with the end of austerity we'll bankroll and build it ourselves (I know or own nuclear industry has been privatised and let to go fallow) rather than relying on state loans from China and state engineering from France.
EDFs own internal report reckon it will run hugely over budget and time, the Chinese have been garuantee compo by Osborne when that that happens, May knows it's a stinker
I reckon she'll leave it to her 3 fall guys, Johnson, Davies and Fox, unless she appointed Gove as minister for not listening to nuclear experts
"I reckon she'll leave it to her 3 fall guys, Johnson, Davies and Fox, unless she appointed Gove as minister for not listening to nuclear experts"
😀
Is this a desperation solution though ?
The crazy guaranteed MWh pricing for 35 years !
£18 billion quid* to build it. Billions to decommission it.
* like that won't increase.
Alternatives ? We need fusion to get solved pronto 🙂
Is there no reason we don't plough every penny into tidal power?
Energy self sufficiency must be the top priority of any country.
Imagine being able to tell all the energy rich foreign despots to go **** themselves.
No doubt it will cost an absolute fortune but what an investment.
There again, the tories could build it using tax payers money then flog it to the Chinese for a pound.
[quote=zippykona ]Is there no reason we don't plough every penny into tidal power?
Energy self sufficiency must be the top priority of any country.
Imagine being able to tell all the energy rich foreign despots to go **** themselves.
No doubt it will cost an absolute fortune but what an investment.
There again, the tories could build it using tax payers money then flog it to the Chinese for a pound.
Would you agree with the unions stating that government decision to have a rethink is "bonkers" ?
It seems a crap deal to me, what do the unions know that we dont ?
I'm pro nuke so anti Hinckley. Ap1000 is far further advanced so lower risk. If you need quick build go for Korean gen 3+. Hinckley is Eurofighter, Korean gen 3+ is F18.
How much would it cost the government to place solar panels on the roof of every dwelling/house in the UK and perhaps roll it out as a new work/training scheme to employ tens of thousands of contractors to do the fitting.
If Hinkley point will only produce 7% of the UK's power then surely the solar energy generated on everyones roof would offset the need to build such a nuclear scheme?.
I guess i'm being simplistic but it's better than signing over our power supply to foreign investors.
allthepies - MemberBut, I don't know what their reasons are for delaying the decision.
Neither do they, apparently- 5 days ago Hammond was proudly declaring how it'd go ahead and we were just waiting for EDF. The Chinese signatories for the finance side had been flown in ready to sign the deal, the press conferences had been booked... Suddenly, change of plan. Hurrah for our new government, here's their first test of any note and they have no idea what they're doing, they can't plan 5 days into the future on a project that'll take 20 years minimum.
TBH it feels like they expected EDF to back out, and now are left panicking.
The problem with solar is that it doesn't work at night time. Or during the winter.
TBH it feels like they expected EDF to back out, and now are left panicking.
It's like Johnson campaigning for Brexit all over again 😯
Bargaining chip to be used in Brexit negotiations?
Steelfreak - Member
Bargaining chip to be used in Brexit negotiations?
Interesting.
Explain?
Steelfreak - Member
Bargaining chip to be used in Brexit negotiations?
I suppose that the theory is EDF need the business more than we need electricty
Id say that was rubbish as
A) we are facing a huge energy shortage
B) EDF themselves know its going to be a disaster
Steelfreak - MemberBargaining chip to be used in Brexit negotiations?
France themselves have cancelled their plans to build more reactors of this design, so it's hard to see them being too intimidated by us doing the same as a brexit threat...
It's us that's potentially up shit street here tbh with an aging fleet of reactors and currently no real plan in place to deal with that.
Okay, so here's the rundown.
By 2024 the first AGR reactors will be coming offline. Hinkley B and Hunterston B. Hartlepool and Heysham 1 will follow (Dungeness B has run so little it'll probably be running till the 2120's). ~6400GW down.
2034 sees Torness and Heysham 2 shut down, another ~2400GW down. So, that's 8800GW of generation down in nuclear alone. Add in coal and it gets far worse.
So what's the solution? C'mon big thinkers, you seem to have the answers, how do you replace 8800GW of nigh on 70% capacity?
AP1000 and Hitachi ABWR are due to exit design evaluation within the next year (one then the other, IIRC Hitachi are due out first), they will go ahead and if they are cheaper etc. then Sizewell C will simply be passed on to Hitachi or Westinghouse leaving Hinkley C as this generations equivalent of the Dungeness B fiasco. Chill, these things sort themselves out.
As for fusion, we have access to all of the resulting data and technnology from ITER as part of our EU membersh....oh.
So like I said build a few Gas power stations to provide base for renewables until reactors that work come on line.