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true that
the errors at the time may be a catalogue of human errors that , whilst avoidable , were not criminal
What they did afterwards was as criminal, reprehensible and actually hurt the legacy of the victims and their families and they did it to cover their own arses.
Yes those ****s deserve punishment
Do you think the guilty deserved to be punished for their crime?yes or no?
I do, yes. I think that being punished for wrongdoing is the most natural thing in the world, in a balance sense. Seeking retribution/justice etc is a natural human response to having been wronged. It's still far from "hang em high", I'm not in for any corporal punishment or anything like that.
Some completely disagree and feel that prison should only be used as an opportunity to rehab people and I wonder how they could justify imprisoning any of these involved considering there is nothing to rehab.
I think it may well make other coppers think about covering shit up if they lie in the future.
I thought that prison was a very ineffective deterrent? I have certainly seen that rationale used on here anyway.
Great post by honorablegeorge up there
The HSE have got a few people imprisoned for criminal negligence now, it's certainly a piece of legislation with teeth.
I'm amazed how damning the jury's verdict is. There's nothing that does not come down on the side of the fans is there? Police, ambulance, stadium, engineers all ****ed up. Police to the degree that it was criminal. Wow. That's a pretty deep cover up for 27 years.
Since we've stuck inghams letter up, boris johnsons is worth a look too. Horrible.
It is a fact that the Cup semi-finals happen every year, and that means a large number of fans at an unfamiliar ground. I made no other point, and your attempt to suggest I was in any way blaming the fans is cheap and nasty.
Apologies, it was not intended that way, my point being that once you remove the police and their subsequent cover up actions, this was eventually going to happen. It could have been any of the clubs who take a large amount of fans away with them.
Football grounds have changed for a reason, and it wasn't for the comfort of the fans. It's something I feel passionate about.
I had not seen that letter from Ingham before.He clearly came to the conclusion that we had an honest Police force and backed them up.
The South Yorkshire Police force effectively acted as paramilitary militia for Ingham and his master during the miners strike. I wouldn't have expected much in the way of criticism. That in itself will have helped develop their culture of impunity, given that the government were happy to let them beat the shit out of people they didn't like, then fabricate evidence on an industrial scale to fit them up, en masse.
[url= http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/margaret-thatcher-aide-sir-bernard-3420040 ]Bernhard Ingham is a truly despicable human being[/url]
I thought that prison was a very ineffective deterrent? I have certainly seen that rationale used on here anyway.
The change of being caught and convicted is the more effective as a deterrent and the sentence length.
If we let them walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist, it basically tells all current serving Police that they can lie as much as they like and get away with it.
I was one of the people who 'bought' the lies hook, line and sinker. I like to think I am a relatively sensible person, but the original impression given stayed with me. In my defence I was only 11 at the time of the disaster - i.e. old enough to be aware of the news, but not old enough to really question it. I then spent a long time just assuming what I thought was true was true. To my shame it took until about 3-4 years ago for me to really have a look at what was going on and what had happened. I was ashamed at some of the things I had thought in the past and felt pretty stupid.
The way things were around football in the 80's, this type of thing was pretty much bound to happen. The actions of hooligans [u]had[/u] led to the need for perimeter fencing - I don't think anyone can deny that, but the 'perfect storm' was Hillsborough.
A crap, dilapidated and dangerous stadium, a big game with full attendance and inept policing all combined to create an awful disaster.
Truly and awfully terrible, but not malicious.
What came after is the unforgiveable bit. Pillorying innocent families who had lost loved ones, lying, changing statements, putting all the blame back on the fans because the police were too arrogant to accept any blame. They knew they were wrong, but their attitude of "we made mistakes, but we are the only people who can be the police, so we must keep our jobs". Also notwithstanding the desire to retire on a nice pension.
To keep up the pretence for so long, to let family members go to their graves not knowing the truth and to treat grieving people with such contempt is just beyond the pale.
We all know the feeling. You cock something up at work for example and the opportunity to let someone else carry the can is there. Many would be tempted. A few would do it. But to keep it up for nearly 30 years when you are dealing with 96 deaths is despicable.
eddie11 - MemberSince we've stuck inghams letter up, boris johnsons is worth a look too. Horrible.
FWIW, Johnson was the editor, Simon Heffer wrote the article, at Johnson's request. And Johnson at least apologised (under duress, but still). I don't believe Heffer ever has. He seemed quite pleased to claim responsibility tbh. But then, he is a terrorist, terrorists like claiming responsibility for the damage they cause.
Not very important, this, but I figure we should keep the fantasy to one side of the argument, it keeps things simpler.
If we let them walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist, it basically tells all current serving Police that they can lie as much as they like and get away with it.
Apologies, my post was incorrect, I see it often argued that prison is an INeffective deterrent. I don't know (or care for) the numbers and I agree with you. Wrongdoers need punishing. rehab is secondary.
Dannyh, you're pretty much on the money for me.
dannyh - MemberA crap, dilapidated and dangerous stadium, a big game with full attendance and inept policing all combined to create an awful disaster.
Truly and awfully terrible, but not malicious.
I do think some of the police go beyond "inept". They didn't make unfortunate mistakes - they just didn't do the basic things they needed to do. Duckenfield didn't even go and have a look at the stadium, despite being aware of two previous incidents there. He didn't speak with the previous man in charge to learn about the place. He turned down an offer from same bloke to work with him on the day. The ground had no safety certificate. He didn't put a major emergency plan into place, even with dozens of people dead and dying.
Being put in charge of the safety of 40,000 people and not bothering your arse before hand, and then doing nothing when the disaster did happen goes beyond inept. It's like driving a truck you know to be unsafe on the motorway. If a tyre blows and you crash into someone and ill them, it's not just an unfortunate mistake "Whoops" doesn't cover it. I agree it falls short of malicious, but it's only one rung down,
Apologies, it was not intended that way, my point being that once you remove the police and their subsequent cover up actions, this was eventually going to happen. It could have been any of the clubs who take a large amount of fans away with them.
Thanks. I think we're agreeing actually. My point was that given this sort of situation (FA Cup semi)happened every year, the police couldn't argue that the need to manage large numbers of visiting supporters was unusual. As others noted upthread, there were warnings: not only 1981, but 1988 - there was a crush, at Hillsborough, featuring the same teams. It's the casual disregard for fans' safety and the subsequent cover up that I find the worst aspects of the tragedy.
@ wrecker troll someone else as this is neither the time , nor the place nor the thread for you to "settle scores" on this.
this was eventually going to happen.
No it was not.
Truly and awfully terrible, but not malicious
I'm not flaming you here...I don't think there was any malice or intent to kill anyone. However, our legal system has long punished people for doing things where they were negligent or indifferent and where the thing they did was so bad it deserves criminal punishment. (I agree that this is slightly circular).
The unlawful killing and the cover up are separate issues - although the fact that the killing was unlawful explains why there was a cover up.
@ wrecker troll someone else as this is neither the time , nor the place nor the thread for you to "settle scores" on this.
I am not trolling (and I'm certainly not "settling scores"), I just want to know what flavour "justice" is being sought. It seems a very relevant and perhaps even important question considering the findings. What do you think would be fair?
It depends on the person and what they did.
cover up
Cover up? Back in 1990: "the Taylor Report, concluded that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control."
It was eventually going to happen, the combination of Hillsborough being in poor state, an FA more interested in themselves, the years of poor behaviour of fans up and down the country and the complete hatred between the police and fans meant it was unfortunately more than likely to happen. Bradford should have been a huge wake up call to the state of stadiums, but no one really seemed take much action.
96 people died,more died not knowing the truth would finally come out, they where dads, mothers aunties and uncles, children,freinds and workmates.
Those in charge where found to be negligent, the government in power conspired with the media to blame the fans, senior police officers lied repeatedly, and the sun printed just outside liverpool continued these lies.
Can we ever trust the media and state again, i think not.
Can we ever trust the media and state again, i think not.
So you are going to write that while taking no account of the government sanctioned Taylor report interim or final findings?
Can we ever trust the media and state again, i think not.
Well the same state has just returned a Guilty verdict, so do you trust that?
Junkyard - lazarusNo it was not.
TBH this can be taken different ways. "It was eventually going to happen" can imply powerlessness or inevitability" but it doesn't have to. The same or similiar conditions occurred on other days and in other places; I think it most likely was going to happen, somewhere. Not because it was unavoidable but because the people responsible for avoiding it, wouldn't.
I was just a kid but I remember what it was like, being treated like animals at the football. That was the most important part of it all IMO. Not ground safety, not incompetence, it all in the end came back to not giving a shit. And that all despite us having Ibrox to look back on.
Well the same state has just returned a Guilty verdict, so do you trust that?
the independant jury made the guilty verdict, not the state. and it took a lot of hard work and campaigning by ordinary people to get to the truth.
outofbreath you really are a particularly despicable little troll. I realise that this is te kind of attention you crave so you've 'won' though - so congratulations.
Police Statement firmly blaming senior officers.
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the independant jury made the guilty verdict, not the state. and it took a lot of hard work and campaigning by ordinary people to get to the truth.
Exactly... how many similar instances of cover up and collaboration between state and media are yet to be revealed?
Exactly... how many similar instances of cover up and collaboration between state and media are yet to be revealed?
Cover up? Back in 1990: "the Taylor Report, concluded that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control.".
You're not adding anything to the topic, you're just being an argumentative troll. I assume it's deliberate. 😐
I'm prepared to take the ban if you want me to respond in a manner more suitable.
I do think some of the police go beyond "inept".
Some of the police do indeed go beyond "inept" - a word I probably shouldn't have used as it gives an impression of bumbling bobbies on bikes.
I would say the policing as a whole was inept, but this was 'informed' by entrenched opinions on the part of the police - especially S Yorks given the way this force seemed to operate and be run.
I think there was a prejudice amongst S Yorks police against 'fans' as they set out to be an authoritarian police force. I think there was also probably anti-scouse prejudice as well.
You end up with a situation where the police have their view of their responsibilities warped. They then regarded the fans as a 'problem' they wished would go away, but they would have to deal with. Coming from this angle the actions on the day and the subsequent cover up make a lot more sense (if you can ever apply that word in these circumstances).
outofbreath - MemberCover up? Back in 1990: "the Taylor Report, concluded that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control.".
The IPCC and the RHIP both say there was a coverup. David Cameron agrees and apologised for it. To pretend otherwise is either incredible ignorance- the sort you can only maintain with a lot of effort- or a sick lie.
I just can't quite decide what sort of scumbaggery this is. When I heard the announcement I thought it'd make a real difference to this sort of thing, I guess I underestimated people.
dannyh - MemberComing from this angle the actions on the day and the subsequent cover up make a lot more sense (if you can ever apply that word in these circumstances).
I'd very much agree that attitudes and prejudices of the SYP were a big part of why they acted the way they did, without excusing any of it
so massive payouts to all involved I assume..
No knee jerk silliness please, but [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/17/hillsborough-disaster-police-masonic-conspiracy ]this element bears consideration[/url]:
[b]Senior South Yorkshire police officers who were freemasons orchestrated a “masonic conspiracy” to shift the blame after the Hillsborough disaster in 1989, the inquests into the deaths of the 96 victims have been told.Maxwell Groome, a constable at the time, said that after the disaster at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at Sheffield Wednesday’s football ground, “the word” inside the force was that freemason officers held a meeting to blame superintendent Roger Marshall.[/b]
Groome said he heard that the meeting took place in portable cabins at South Yorkshire police’s area office, and was attended by Chief superintendent David Duckenfield, who had commanded the match.
Questioned by Michael Mansfield QC, representing 75 families whose relatives were killed at Hillsborough, [b]Groome said he believed Duckenfield was “a grandmaster of a particularly influential lodge[/b]” – the Dore lodge in Sheffield.
Groome also told the inquest that senior officers pressured junior officers to change their statements after the disaster, because they were “terrified” of criticism of the force’s command. He said he was “duped” into agreeing to the changes, because he believed if he did not, he would never be called to give evidence to Lord Justice Taylor’s official inquiry or to the first inquest, and his statement would be “magicked away, dumped in a box, never to see the light of day again”.
Groome said a colleague, PC Brookes – whose first name was not given in court – called the inquiry team at West Midlands police to complain it was “a masonic conspiracy”.
Groome said Brookes told him West Midlands police asked if he could prove the conspiracy. Brookes told them he couldn’t, and Groome said they concluded it would not be investigated.
Asked why in earlier accounts about the events of the day he did not include the rumoured meeting of freemason officers, Groome replied: “Basically, I’d have been committing professional suicide.”
Northwind - MemberI just can't quite decide what sort of scumbaggery this is. When I heard the announcement I thought it'd make a real difference to this sort of thing, I guess I underestimated people.
There's plenty of people still determined to be arseholes on this subject.
Thoroughly recommend David Conn's piece here. He's covered this story for longer than I can remember. Things like Duckenfield concocting his lie about Liverpool fans forcing the gate to be opened (when he'd ordered it open himself), the photographer being dispatched to photograph beer cans in the bins, the grieving parents being interrogated on how much their two dead children had to drink. All of this going on while the dead were still lying on the pitch. The lies and cover up were put into action before the ambulances were called.
martinhutch - MemberYou could pursue SYP 'corporately', but I imagine it would be another decade of legal blind alleys and I'd rather that energy/money was put into further work on stadium and public event safety.
What does get my goat is the subsequent cover-up and smear. Those police officers who initiated and participated knowingly in that deception should get their day in court.
I think this is spot on - we all know that they made some tragic errors, they know they made some tragic errors, but trying to convict someone for the deaths rather than the cover up will be a long and costly exercise in revenge as much as justice. The unlawful killing verdict was a [i]majority[/i] verdict, so presumably a criminal jury may also be unable to reach a conclusive verdict, and then what do we do in another 4-5 years and several million pounds down the swanny?
Interesting interview with the match referee when I was in the car earlier - he has supported the families in their fight, but did point out that as a referee, he was well aware why fans were behind fences at the time and grateful for it. Terrible it took this tragedy to get the whole culture change for crowd safety as we know it now.
I've been listening to some of the family testimony on radio5. Very moving.
Glad for all involved.
It's sort of odd that JHJ is determined to subvert the radical and now widely accepted truth (that the state and in particular the South Yorkshire Police, as an institution and criminal enterprise, engaged in a conspiracy to cover up crimes) for a more modest lie (that it was the work of a few rogue Masons)...
I think this is spot on - we all know that they made some tragic errors, they know they made some tragic errors, but trying to convict someone for the deaths rather than the cover up will be a long and costly exercise in revenge as much as justice. The unlawful killing verdict was a majority verdict, so presumably a criminal jury may also be unable to reach a conclusive verdict, and then what do we do in another 4-5 years and several million pounds down the swanny?
There's nothing wrong with a majority verdict. It wasn't a narrow margin. You don't need a unanimous verdict in a criminal trial. The outcome of criminal trials is never guaranteed. I don't think you can say criminal prosecution is an act of revenge when the likely defendants have had every protection and procedural right they were entitled to - and quite a few they weren't entitled to (like having a police force cover up their actions).
Anyone else wishing kelvin mackenzie, Boris and a few others would fall on a very real sword today.
Scumbags the lot of them
That Ingram letter is horrific
[url=
never buy the Sun[/url]
[b]widely accepted truth (that the state and in particular the South Yorkshire Police, as an institution and criminal enterprise, engaged in a conspiracy to cover up crimes)[/b]
What mechanisms did they use to do that?
Why do you suggest involvement of masons is a lie?
its kind of sweet when JHJ tries to get someone to play his game.
At least I have a degree of sweetness... 😉
😀
I bet when that was announced the police chiefs arse went.
Sadly I can't believe anyone set out to kill 96 people no matter what, it's sad all around still imo.
I bet when that was announced the police chiefs arse went.
Pretty sure they've seen this day coming for some time now.
MacKenzie - what a massive cock-weasel. "...somehow I got caught up in it..."
Pretty sure they've seen this day coming for some time now.
Approx 27 years
I think one thing can be said for sure today,and that is that this has been a great victory for the common man over the Establishment.
Justice for the 96!
At last.
How Mackenzie has got the bare-faced front to make a statement like that defies belief!
I'd like to see him go and make the same starement stood in the middle of the Kop on a match day
I can't believe anyone set out to kill 96 people
No-one is suggesting that anyone did.
If anyone deserves a lynching it is Kelvin MacKenzie
If anyone deserves a lynching it is Kelvin MacKenzie
And of course the editor of The Spectator, one Boris Johnson:
The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident.
So the tellers of untruth continue, IMHO, to be tellers of untruths.
What they did to the city, the families and the victims was atrocious at least the police were trying to save their own skins they did not even have an excuse.
I'd like to see him go and make the same starement stood in the middle of the Kop on a match day
Well, now, if he'd been given the title he "joked" about six months or so ago, he may have had the chance.
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I think there was a prejudice amongst S Yorks police against 'fans' as they set out to be an authoritarian police force. I think there was also probably anti-scouse prejudice as well.
Definitely, mostly due to Heysel, and generally against football hooliganism.
It was a widely held view back in the 80's. Every football fan was treated like sh*t. Of course, only a very small percentage caused trouble, but they were reported on whenever there was any fighting, of which there was lots in the 80's.
It continues today - away fans not allowed to leave the ground for 20 mintes etc, coraaled from buses to the ground, even escorted from the motorway direct to the ground.
I could comment on that DD, but I would most definitely make the swear filter explode.
I just sincerely hope that one day that subhuman scumbag gets what he's had coming to him for 27 years
I'm talking about his thoroughly deserved title, obviously...
I can't believe anyone set out to kill 96 peopleNo-one is suggesting that anyone did.
Not even I'm suggesting that, nor am I for one moment disputing
[b]that the state and in particular the South Yorkshire Police, as an institution and criminal enterprise, engaged in a conspiracy to cover up crimes[/b]
However, don't we all deserve to know how much of a role freemasonry played in facilitating such dark and manipulative acts?
And of course the bigger question, do similar levels of cover up continue in other areas to this day...
Large event planned Wednesday night, tommorrow in Liverpool, lime street on st Georges Plateu opposite Lime street station, 17.45 start, music, prayers etc.
http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/travel-updates/Pages/Hillsborough-Commemoration-Event.aspx
David Conn's article in the Guardian is the best summary of the whole incident. It's a long read, but probably gives the best narrative of what happened on the day.
Police Statement firmly blaming senior officers.
Thats not a Police Statement - its a statement by the trade union of police rank and file officers.
[quote=project ]Large event planned Wednesday night, tommorrow in Liverpool, lime street on st Georges Plateu opposite Lime street station, 17.45 start, music, prayers etc.
> http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/travel-updates/Pages/Hillsborough-Commemoration-Event.aspx
br />
See you there - might skip the prayer bit.
The Police Federation is a staff association not a trade union.
yes sorry - quite right - I was speaking colloquially.
I hope that today's verdict provides some relief and comfort to families and friends of those who died and were injured at Hillsborough.
A terrible day and a shameful episode.
To answer outofbreath's what coverup question there is a quantum leap in responsibility between today's verdict that police errors were causal factors in the disaster eg opening the gate, the commander accepting that he believed his job was controlling misbehaviour and having no consideration for crowd safety, and the Taylor reports finding that the police lost control of the crowd.
The cover up is clear from even the basics of ordering officers not to male notes in pocket books but on plain paper The plain paper accounts were amended before they went to the Taylor inquiry. The Hillsborough Independent Panel reported in 2012 that 164 statements had been altered. In 116 of these, criticisms of the police operation and senior officers’ lack of leadership were removed.
As well as the families and friends of those who died, I also feel sympathy for those fans who were in the tunnel - 27yrs of feeling guilt (however unfounded) must eat at your very soul.
The plain paper accounts were amended before they went to the Taylor inquiry. The Hillsborough Independent Panel reported in 2012 that 164 statements had been altered. In 116 of these, criticisms of the police operation and senior officers’ lack of leadership were removed.
Which of course ties in with my link on page 4:
Senior South Yorkshire police officers who were freemasons orchestrated a “masonic conspiracy” to shift the blame after the Hillsborough disaster in 1989, the inquests into the deaths of the 96 victims have been told.
[b]Groome also told the inquest that senior officers pressured junior officers to change their statements after the disaster, because they were “terrified” of criticism of the force’s command. He said he was “duped” into agreeing to the changes, because he believed if he did not, he would never be called to give evidence to Lord Justice Taylor’s official inquiry or to the first inquest, and his statement would be “magicked away, dumped in a box, never to see the light of day again”[/b].Groome said a colleague, PC Brookes – whose first name was not given in court – called the inquiry team at West Midlands police to complain it was “a masonic conspiracy”.
It is as much about clearing the names of the 96 deceased football fans if not more so and the name of Liverpudlians rather than anything else.
May they finally rest in peace.
God bless.
jhj, you're more concerned with exposing a Masonic conspiracy that you are with the momentous achievement of the HFSG. Their perseverance dwarves yours. I wonder sometimes if there is a thread topic which you wouldn't hijack to make us endure your rambling bollocks.
And with that, just **** off.
Which of course ties in with my link on page 4:
Everything ties in when you look at it from under a tinfoil hat. There's a time and a place for nutjob ramblings and this isn't it.
Well I'll be, clear evidence of a conspiracy and yet, as per, a wealth of negativity and denial
just **** off
about sums it up
clear evidence of a conspiracy
There is clear, well-documented evidence of a conspiracy (now proven to a tribunal) between police officers institutionalised and covering up for each other.
There is no such evidence of a conspiracy among masons, just one office whose mate Kevin told him about it in the canteen but Kev didn't think he could prove it.
There is clear, well-documented evidence of a conspiracy (now proven to a tribunal)
And in that same tribunal, describing the same course of events, with no fabrication or fantasy, a police officer mentioned involvement of the masons...
It doesn't in any way discredit the massive time and effort put in by the victims families, or bring into question the credibility of other accounts, however, it provides some insight into a further element of the cover up.
One officer, about whom the coroner said to the jury: “I should say this quite clearly to you: we have no other evidence than this rumour, said to emanate from the [South Yorkshire police] area office. It amounts to no more than what the witness described as ‘scuttlebutt’.’”
The witness described as 'scuttlebutt'. The one witness who made any mention of the Masons - probably you could look up how many witnesses have spoken about the events of the day (I bet it's not a small number) and the people involved, and the [b]one[/b] witness who mentioned the Masons said that what he heard was rumour.
*Slow hand clap*
You're messed up... you're happy to imply I'm being distasteful, then you sink to new lows~ I hope you're proud of yourself.
Anyone would think everyone was scared to talk about the influence of the masons or something...
Why would that be?
I heard the word "mason".It made me [s]think[/s] masturbate.
then you sink to new lows
I know the bastard used indisputable facts and there were no pictures anywhere
Makes you think eh.
the trade union of police rank and file officers.
POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
It's also the organisation that sat on minutes of the meeting at which senior police officers spread "the truth" which got to the Prime Minister and then to The Sun...so they can do one
So the police lied, how did they get away with it? Because the Liverpool fans had a significant scumbag element in it that killed a load of people at Hysel so it wasn't a huge stretch to get folk to believe they did this too.
Far too much victimhood. It was ages ago, it was a mess, the police lied and the Liverpool fans cultivated an image for themselves as murdering hooligans. Now they're all saints? Gimme a break, RIP those who died, now lets move on.