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“Erm, 10 vs 11 speed? I think even I might notice that…. ”
You might notice it, but would it make any difference? Can you ride things with 11 gears you couldn’t with 10?
To be honest I reckon the main difference is just knowing you have spent that much on cable.
I would sure as hell convince myself I can hear the difference for that amount of money. 😉
As my last bike was spec’d 2x to give me low enough gears yet high enough to not spin out too quickly on road sections, I’d probably say yes (especially fully loaded). Could I make do with (3x) 8 or 9? Probably, but that’s not the question.
and are talking about after 100 hours burn in?
but that’s still not the right analogy. We are talking about at least mag 10 cost difference on cables. XT £440 on Merlin, no Deore but with SLX at £350 we are talking approx £250+ ie less than double.
I assume you’ve already fixed the room acoustics since that has a much bigger effect on the sound than cables ever could.
Exactly that.
The real test is to turn the directional cable the wrong way round and listen for the difference, I'm sure you'll hear it immediately...
There is a difference between the quality of groupsets.
The same as there is a difference in the quality of main hifi components and the resulting sound reproduction.
I don't use bell wire for my speakers, I think the stuff I have was £20 for 50m from Ebay.
I would bet that you couldn't tell any difference in a blind test between that and the £500 stuff.
It likes trying to claim you can tell a difference in a cheap inner tube and a more expensive branded one when riding.
My point is that most people’s arguments against high end hifi cables is that they make so little difference that they’re a waste of money, yet most people making that judgement have never listened to such cables for any length of time, and certainly not through kit that would justify them.
I ride 3x9 XT on my 26” Soul with 9mm QR axles. I struggle to see how any of the “advances” that have happened in the 10 years since I built that bike would improve my enjoyment of it.
I can tell the difference between some cables.
I've offered to demonstrate this half a dozen times on here.
I know cables can make a difference. I'm more interested in how other people choose which to buy.
Someone's been reading too much WhatHi-Fi. The point of diminishing returns was passed a good 450eu back, and I seem to recall from a previous thread you have no room treatment/bass traps whatsoever?
I ride 3×9 XT on my 26” Soul with 9mm QR axles. I struggle to see how any of the “advances” that have happened in the 10 years since I built that bike would improve my enjoyment of it.
Well, see, that’s the difference between us right there. Knocking on six years ago me and my mate went out on my Soda and Solaris for a 4 hour ride where we swapped bikes about over a variety of terrain. At the end of it I knew which one I was keeping: the Solaris. Earlier this year I passed my 3x9 XT Soul on to the Loon as it was pretty much gathering dust by that point. And as someone who has to take off the front wheel to put the bike in the car I’m more than happy to ditch the qr.
now, back to Hi-Fi. What is it I’m missing?
Can't work out this new system with Flickr. BBC code?
Or how to use the quotes button.
Help.
“Well, see, that’s the difference between us right there.”
Sure. But it’s all subjective, just like speaker cables really.
“Just like speaker cables really”
naw, more vinyl vs digital I’d say 😜
26” and Deore?
Yeah I do.
@woppit:
Only way know is to go to photo page on Flickr, download suitable size photo then grab the page url and paste that in...
"26” and Deore?
Yeah I do."
Do you really though? Did you hate cycling until the manufacturers came up with the bright idea of increasing wheel diameters by an imperceptible amount? I somehow doubt it.
pics or it didn't happen
Tried. Didn't work.
post the url link, someone’ll fire it up
Epic has been part of our speaker cable range for around ten years – it’s a shielded cable that works with pretty much every style of speaker. From mid-price to high end, Epic brings detail, dynamics, resolution and coherence to every speaker it’s used with. It’s particularly good at bringing control and definition across the bass frequencies as well and can be a really good solution for floor standing speakers.
Epic is based on our multi-award-winning Chord Odyssey speaker cable. Both cables actually have identical conductors, they use 12 AWG oxygen free copper negative and positive conductors which are silver plated and insulated with PTFE before an outer PVC jacket is applied. The key difference is that Epic then has a very effective high frequency combination shield applied, surrounded by a translucent PVC jacket. So the improvements that Epic brings primarily come down to the shielding but the outer jacket also provides an extra degree of mechanical damping.
So WTF is "mechanical damping" in a speaker cable?
metalheart, with regard to your "what am I missing?", for example: after changing the cables, on complex and layered pieces like "Rhesus Perplexus" from the album "Product" by Brand X or Billy Cobham's "Snoopy Search" from "Spectrum", I am suddenly hearing things that simply did not exist in the room previously.
So the more expensive cables are, in at least this one respect, moving the system nearer to it's full potential in relaying everything that's contained in the original recording.
I agree though, that cables of this quality are only likely to improve the performance of a system of similar quality.
If they are attached to less sophisticated gear, they may just highlight it's inadequacies or even make no sonic difference at all...
Mechanical damping means shielding the cable core from vibration present in the room affecting it's performance, typically through the floor. The other shielding in these cables is against signal interference from wifi, typically.
Thanks for the response woppit. I take it you mean that if its £500 cables you'd need, say, £10k on the source, amps and speakers?
If so ahm oot, my pockets aren't that deep, I'm Aberdonian and, if I'm honest, I'm struggling to hear whats missing on mp3's... Plus the majority of what I listen to isn't that sonically layered that I know. I'm more of an 'emotional' listener (currently BPB's I See a Darkness is playing, you get the drift 🙂 )
How many pairs of cable did you try before settling on these?
How did you audition them?
And why do you think the process works differently between expensive gear and cheaper gear?
I ask because after much experimentation on my system and other peoples, I find the differences have little to do with money.
Quick question (from someone who has a relatively nice hi fi but hasn’t played about with cables to a great extent); has anyone ever undertaken a test where the output from the speakers with several different cables is recorded with a room microphone and then the subsequent wave form analysed?
At least that way we’d actually be able to conclusively say there was a difference, rather than blaming any differences on our brains...
Here you go....
Thanks mh. I was about to have another go but started to suffer from fear of failure stress.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;">Thanks for the response woppit. I take it you mean that if its £500 cables you’d need, say, £10k on the source, amps and speakers?</span>
Yes. At minimum, I'd say.
Of course chasing this far down the rabbit hole is an expensive business and if a person is happy with whatever they've got and don't feel the urge to start hunting that's also perfectly fine. ..
My mate who is a neighbour, sits in his conservatory listening to music on an Amazon Alexa device and I must say, whilst I'm there partaking in a spot of social imbibification, I'm quite happy to sit and listen as well.
Nothing quite like personal access to luxurious indulgence though - he and his mrs come across to mine for the occasional treat. 🙂
We’re quick enough to get defensive when someone says “it’s just a pushbike”. People in glass houses and all that
It's quite a good comparison actually, a £300 sound system will be just about good enough, as is a £300 bike.
Go up to about a thousand and you'll get something quite nice indeed, then spending more really is just diminishing return.
Is a ten grand bike or sound system better than a 1 grand, I'd argue almost undoubtedly, but is it ten times better? Not a prayer.
I did, in my dim and distant youth, start down the road of separates but became aware of the ‘listening to the Hi-Fi’ rather than the music syndrome. So decided to do the mountain bike thing instead..... 🤣
why did you not go bi-wired?
are those bannana plugs?
Yes they are.
It's actually no suprise that €500 cables sound better. You hear what you want to hear, you see what you want to see.
Yes. I wanted to hear more, so I bought an upgrade that delivered some more for me to hear. ..
Mr Woppit - so if the speaker cable delivers all the benefits that Chord claim and you have not bi-wired your speakers, surely half of the signal is then "degraded" again when it reaches the crossover bridge connectors? Which are just simple strips of copper, with no shielding or "mechanical damping"?
If you say so.
I've already explained an example of the benefits of the exercise to metalheart in the plainest language I can muster.
Look back up the thread if you're interested.
I've no intention of arguing with your hypothesis.
What did you upgrade from?
mechanical damping! I've heard it all now.
How do the cables know how much the rest of your system cost?
mechanical damping! I’ve heard it all now.
Anyone with a proper sound system would have experienced vibration in thier speaker cable, sometimes they start moving all on thier own. It's to stop all the electrons moving around inside the cable.
Oh, wait.
<div class="bbp-reply-author" style="margin: 0px 12px; padding: 0px; border-width: 0px 0px 1px; border-image: initial; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background: #eeeeee; display: flex; justify-content: flex-start; float: none; text-align: center; width: unset; min-height: 0px; position: relative; color: #444444; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; border-color: initial initial #cccccc initial; border-style: initial initial dotted initial;"></div>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;">Subscriber</div>
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<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: unset; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent; line-height: 1.5rem; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">What did you upgrade from?</p>
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Too-short NAIM NACA4.
Edit: wish you guys would sort out these edit buttons...
I think the EMR reflecting off the sheilding on the cable is corrpting your HTML
Yes. I wanted to hear more, so I bought an upgrade that delivered some more for me to hear. ..
No doubt. However what I am highlighting by posting that image is that your brain is very easily fooled. In that images the two squares, A and B, are actually the exact same shade and colour. However your brain expects them to be different due to chequerboard pattern, but you're being fooled.
This perhaps explains why very expensive loudspeaker cables make such a positive difference to the sound you hear from your hi-fi, while in the absence of any explanation based on physics.
Your brain is very easily fooled
Don't take this personally BTW, everyone's brain is easily fooled. By 'your brain' I really mean 'ones brain'...
NAIM NACA4.
If you can consistently and reliably tell the difference audibly between those two sets of cables in double-blind testing then I'll both give you my bike and discover Jesus.
“Edit: wish you guys would sort out these edit buttons…”
Just use an Apple device. You don’t get the option at all then 🙂
“If you can consistently and reliably tell the difference audibly between those two sets of cables in double-blind testing then I’ll both give you my bike and discover Jesus.”
And so what if he can’t? Do you suddenly become worse at riding a bike if it’s wearing Deore rather than XTR?
550 on speaker cable? You need sectioning. If you buy in in 27.5 lengths it's gonna bring the sound alive....
Oh well. That's me debunked then...
Oh well. That's me debunked then...
Happily sitting here listening to a difference that's glaringly obvious.
Bye.