[Closed] HiFi

Does it require special cables?

Relatively small driver = sensible idea for good bass but not huge SPL.

can't we save this for christmas week, when everyone's feeling tetchy ? 😉

I'd say those speakers were best described as "Audio", not "HiFi".

Although I haven't heard them. But I wouldn't be surprised...

Possibly a good replacement for both my floorstanders and modestly priced 5.1... hmm.

I'd say those speakers were best described as "Audio", not "HiFi".

Although I haven't heard them.

🙄

Woppit, are you an engineer?

I'd say those speakers were best described as "Audio", not "HiFi".

here's a review from TAS on their hifi credentials:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker/

Here's a comment from an LS3/5a user (which is only a grade 2 monitor, before anyone starts...):

I own a pair of Pioneer SP-BS22 LR Loudspeakers as well as a pair of Rogers LS3/5a's. The Pioneers are not quite as magical in the midrange but they do throw a mighty large soundstage. The balance is excellent and they seem to go lower than the Rogers. I use the Rogers in a two-channel stereo system and I use the Pioneers as left and right channels in a 5.1 theater system. I can definitely recommend the Pioneers as one of the true bargains in sound.

I was targeting this post at the forum users that end up looking at £300ish Denon systems, etc - i.e .mid-fi...

Pioneer eh?

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Got loads of pioneer gear blud.

Pioneer, the ones with a reasonable hifi heritage - PL12D anyone?

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I would have thought that a 4 inch woofer would need a pretty large Xmax to achieve good bass at normal volumes. Pretty impressive if they manage it for that price.

I had some cheap Pioneer speakers before (albeit with a 6 inch woofer) and they sounded good for the money.

Hmmn, sounds interesting.

Used to have a pair of LS3/5a's years ago.
Naural and smooth with jazz & classical but lacking in welly for more dramatic stuff.
Sound much bigger then they are.

I do hope they turn out to be a real bargain, like Nad 3020's, Pioneer A400's & Creeks were.

Will have a listen when they're out.

I was trying to work out whether my turntable (above) is older than me. It was already old when I got it s/h in about 1984 🙂

retro83 - I think my Linn Kans have only a 4" woofer in them. They seem to create a pretty good level of bass when correctly sited.

Rachel

original linn kans used rejected ls3/5a parts I think, so B110 drivers which were 5 inch.

Having owned 2 pairs of Kans, both Mk1's and LS3/5A's it all depends on the music you listen to on which suit you. The Rogers are stunning on classical but lack warmth or punch whereas the Kans basically shout at you, are bright and lack true bass but grab you by the knackers and involve you like very few others can. BUT and it's a big but, after prolonged listening they become very tiring and they need a very good amp and source to get the best out of them.
Pioneer made some very nice separates many years ago and their budget turntable wasn't bad at all. Their cassette decks were and still are amongst the best made ever.

Japanese never make any good speakers being it costs to much in transportation

cynic-al - Member
Relatively small driver = a girlyman's loudspeaker which fundamentally can't do good bass, due to physics 'n' sh1t.

grantway - Member
Japanese never make any good speakers being it costs to much in transportation

Ha Ha Ha Zero Yes the Japanese did tweak there amps and yet again
The Japs have Not made any descent speakers lol

Got some Dali Zensor 1's, sound great to me....look gd too if that matters.

allthegear - Member
retro83 - I think my Linn Kans have only a 4" woofer in them. They seem to create a pretty good level of bass when correctly sited.

Rachel

That might be true, but it's more expensive making a speaker like that (long excursion) which is why I would be impressed if the Pioneer cheapies can pull it off. More likely that the bookshelf speakers have quite a high roll-off, and the sub is supposed to fill in the gap.

There's been plenty of fantastic Japanese speakers. Speakers in general are quite tough to export due to physical constraints. This just means that we don't hear them, not that they don't exist.

Might sound great. Look bloody ugly.

(Though sadly, to be able to have any decent music in my house now that's also soundproof, my lovely Quad floorstanders are probably going to have to go. Boo.)

Buy a pair of second hand Mission speakers, will defo get better sound for value.

Buy a pair of second hand Mission speakers, will defo get better sound for value.

more hilarity - which particular set of missions are you thinking of ?

those pioneers where designed by Andrew Jones, who used to be senior designer at Kef

Mission 753 Freedom, are they that funny?

They sound very good indeed.

Someone mention Mission?

Mission 780s and 760s are both worth a look, particularly the 780/780SEs, a pair sold on Ebay last week for £35.00. The 780SEs where highly regarded and originally cost around £240.00.

Passive loudspeakers are HiFi twaddle.

Eh?

Mission 753 Freedom, are they that funny?

no, but your statement that any pair of 2nd hand mission speakers will sound better was.

Have you heard the pioneers - they might be outstanding.

Someone explain the difference between volume and SPL?

Well, if you measure SPL, it's Hi Fi. 😀
If you measure volume, its audio.

Seriously, this place.
Everyone's snobby about something.

Used to be very into Hi Fi, but became dissolutioned.
Lots of similarities to religion. The flat earth Linn/Naim evangelicals were bad enough, but when Peter Belt arrived and was taken seriously I sought deprogramming.

Hadge - yes, Linn Kans do benefit from an amp capable of running at low impedances. Luckily, I have a Linn LK280 to drive them - it's more than capable of the job, having originally been built to drive Linn Isobariks...

oh - and I was wrong; it's a 5 inch driver.. 🙂

Rachel

volume: 1-10 (or 11)
SPL: decibels.

I tested/dissembled some 753s when I worked in hifi, I thought they were crap sound and quality, though they looked good. Conversely I had some 760is which were good.

retro83 - Member
That might be true, but it's more expensive making a speaker like that (long excursion) which is why I would be impressed if the Pioneer cheapies can pull it off. More likely that the bookshelf speakers have quite a high roll-off, and the sub is supposed to fill in the gap.

Depends - Kanns and LS3/5as are infinite baffle designs which make the driver move more than bass reflex.

Rusty Shackleford - Member

cynic-al - Member
Relatively small driver = a girlyman's loudspeaker which fundamentally can't do good bass, due to physics 'n' sh1t.

FTFY

Utter BS, but reasonable troll.

sensible idea for good bass but not huge SPL

So "good" in this sentence means reproduction not apparent volume?

Could mean a number of things!

"Good bass" generally means measured extension (eg the low cutt off point at -3dB) so both, kind of.

At low volumes/spls you hear bass less (hence loudness switches) so as I think Rusty is trying to imply, there's an argument that a small driver can't make low bass at high enough volume for you to hear it. It's all subjective of course.

Well I knew about that.. I've compared 30W lead guitar practice amps to 30W bass ones..

Of course, one of the most famous guitar amps of all time was actually a bass amp.
😀

Small drivers can produce excellent, well defined bass.
Rather have a good small speaker rather than a terrible floorstander.

Quality beats quantity - nice, but rare to have both though

Quality, quantity, cheap - pick two!

I like my KEF 104/2s; perhaps a bit ugly....

Got some of these at the moment, they sound bloody superb. They are driven by an old Yamaha A-1020 Amp which must be 20 years old, they are also V V loud but the amp is powerful. Anyone heard these speakers as I dont know that much about them as they are no longer made.
http://www.mission.co.uk/Product.aspx?lang=En&Tab=16&Tab2=e83
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this is the highest quality fidelity. Hi-fi.

At Casa Woppit:

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ProAcs are lovely. Esp with Scanspeak drivers *drool*.

Yep 3rd that. Liked ProAc a lot.

What you want is a set of BnW 802's run off 4 Bryston monoblocs and just in case, a couple of REL Studios in the background.

That was a nice system to install.
(for the nerds - run by a Meridian 800 DVD and 861 Processor, later upgraded to a Lexicon MC12. SPL was not an issue)

Well, whilst we are waving appendages, I have these bad boys powered by a vintage Meridian 101/105 combo. More like shouters than speakers. 🙂

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EDIT:

What you want is a set of BnW 802's run off 4 Bryston monoblocs and just in case, a couple of REL Studios in the background.

Joins in the drooling.

My mate's got a pair of Wilson Benesch ACT speakers. Could buy a car for that....

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Nice Proacs Mr Woppit.

I have heard many positive reviews about them but have never listened to them in the flesh.

I have a pair of Neat Motive SE2s. Lovely little speakers that produce a lot of well controlled bass and areas sweet through the rest of the frequency range.

hoodie - Got some Dali Zensor 1's, sound great to me....look gd too if that matters.

Just got me some Zensor 5's for the TV. Took a while to run in, but they're fab for such small units. Which is just as well given our postage stamp of a living room.

Currently running active SBLs. Contemplating an upgrade to a pair of these badboys 🙂

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Might have to go back to passive for a while though as I'd need to upgrade the active xover and maybe the amps 🙁 The thought of getting them into my 2nd floor flat is also not appealing. Maybe I'll just buy more music...

What did you have before the FRAIM?

Audiophile kit used to be a vice of mine, just as most fishing tackle is designed to catch fishermen rather than fish the same, should be said for the majority of kit tagged "audiophile".

I my experience the first thing to consider is proper acoustic treatment, where you put the speakers and what the sound will refract from or be absorbed by is the first step, a good few weeks can be spent carefully angling the speakers and measuring the distances (you’ll need an expensive laser measure/level)

Then you've got to get the best quality interconnects, find the ones that you cant possibly afford, those are the ones that you’ll need.

If you've gone for non-active speakers then you need to keep the amp to speaker cable short and the interconnects can go the distance. (mono blocks or active are the best way to go, integrated stuff will make you go slowly deaf, sterile and possibly catch the "gays")

After that you need to isolate the kit from the mains, the quality of the power coming into your property will have a noticeable & detrimental effect on the reproduction. Your best option is to stick a battery array in, I used to have an old compaq UPS that ran all my kit from the "clean" battery feed and not only did this make everything sound better it made me thinner, more attractive and able to wheelie down hill one handed. (As you’ll not be able to get one of those old UPS’ then you’ll have to go out and buy a bank of Rolls batteries with a charging system)

By now you'll have spent most of your budget but there's still things that you NEED, if your expensive kit is simply sat on your expensive hifi rack then you are making a CRIMINAL mistake, there are vibrations EVERYWHERE; from passing traffic, airplanes even from your fridge or the wifes hoovering! but fear not, you can protect yourself and your fellow listeners from this! what you need is an Isolation system, oil baths rather than air or spring dampened isolation pads are an essential. Also their procurement usually goes un-noticed by your significant other, a great way of satisfying your "Gear Acquisition Syndrome" (aka GAS).

Now hopefully you’ve got your equipment properly set up and you’re ready to enjoy it, the best way to do this is listen to Reference CD’s supplied by the manufacturers, careless or poorly thought out musical choices are just as bad as using those cheapo thin black and red interconnects sold at car boot sales! Only an idiot would spend upwards of 5k on a HiFi then WASTE IT by listening to anything other than Jean Michelle Jarre, Yes, Dire Straits or if feeling particularly wild, Genesis.*

I achieved the hallowed “Perfect Sound”, my system could raise the hairs on the arms of the deaf, make cats and dogs interbreed and cure cancer, but eventually something strange happened, I stopped listening to music at home. THE “EYES” IN MY EARS HAD OPENED!! I’d listen to albums in the car, on an ipod, on a paint covered wireless, through a length of hose pushed into my neighbours loft. All of these forms of listening gave me such exquisite and yet audiophile sinful pleasures, I felt dirty but it was worth it, every snippet of every shop piped tune I passed was a pure titillation. I would hang around building sites hanging on every builders bent noted whistled, I’d be found sqouring subways for demented buskers, eventually this led me into bars where I’d hear people playing these instrument things with rampant abandon, no concern paid to the angles their sounds might carelessly refract from, I wept, it was like a rebirth! So I joined them, I began playing an instrument too and people listened, people would visit my home to hear me play. Fifty times the visitors attended my house than those that would attend my “guess the interconnect” evenings!

Then I went into the studio...

* I've never owned any Genesis, Yes, or other such twaddle, although I did have a dream last night about some bloke from genesis, I think he was the guitar tech.

In short, the most important thing about listening to music is not the kit you play it on but rather the reaction and situation that it involves.

Anyone want a pair of PMC tb2 in oak? Great easy to drive speakers but they didn't integrate well in my tiny room with no acoustic treatment, now using Leema xero's which are tiny but have excellent bass that suits the room size both visually and sonically. Personal preference but you don't always need huge drivers and SPL's to enjoy 'good bass' I always like to hear the string being struck before the actual low MgHz 🙄 and hate room boom and big humps in the response curve.

It's easy to make your Hi-Fi sound much, much better for free.
All you have to do is believe: [url= http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html ]Linky. [/url]

A bit more info: [url= http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/110 ]Linky.[/url]

Peter and May's new [url= http://www.pwbelectronics.co.uk/ ]Homepage.[/url]

Ha Ha Ha Zero Yes the Japanese did tweak there amps and yet again
The Japs have Not made any descent speakers lol

Before I wrap up this epic (and promise never, ever to write about the NS10 again), there's just one more issue that probably deserves to be kicked around a little. If the NS10 is so good, why do people so often express their dislike of listening to it? I suspect that there are both practical and emotional answers to this conundrum.

First, the emotional. Thanks to its time-domain accuracy and mid-heavy balance, the NS10 is an extremely revealing speaker that takes no prisoners. In other words, if the recording is poor, the NS10 will tell you in no uncertain terms. You have to work harder to make things sound good on the NS10 not because it sounds bad but because recorded music, even today, is often a poor approximation of the real thing, and the NS10 reveals it. I found a familiar comment on the SOS Forum that reads: "If it sounds good on NS10s then it'll sound good on anything." Again, that's not because the NS10 is inherently poor, but because it is effective at revealing the fundamental compromises inherent in recorded music. If you've worked hard on NS10s at a mix and overcome those compromises, or perhaps cleverly disguised them, the mix will translate well to other systems because it is a good mix. Put another way, the NS10 better enables you to get to the nub of a mix by more accurately reproducing its fundamental time-domain information — and it is this which can make the task of mixing seem more challenging.

And the practical? Well, it's certainly true that the NS10s have a mid-heavy balance and little bass extension. This is especially so if they are not mounted close to a suitable boundary — such as a big desk or a rear wall — to provide low mid-range reinforcement. They're also just as revealing of any shortcomings in the monitoring chain as they are of the mix, and they don't take very kindly to being driven loud. While Newells and Holland showed they have very low levels of distortion, they do suffer from thermal compression, which will not only cause wide-band dynamic attenuation in response to high levels of drive, but will upset the characteristics of the crossover filters as the voice-coil resistance of the drivers increases. As temperature rises, the bass/mid low-pass filter frequency will increase significantly (and the tweeter high-pass filter frequency will reduce), and begin to give prominence to the resonances at the top end of the bass/mid driver's response. When NS10s are driven too hard by a poor amplifier, fed by a sub-standard monitor output, and mounted without any boundary reinforcement, you might well find that they sound horrible to the point of being unusable.

Then there are these Japanese speakers:
http://www.whathifi.com/review/eclipse-td-510zmk2
And these:
http://www.whathifi.com/blog/high-end-2012-sony-eyes-european-launch-of-its-27000-ss-ar1-flagship-speakers

Well said Mr Nutt! A lot of folk buying this gear have lost their higher range of hearing too or are listening to MP3's through their gear...ridiculous! I know someone who spent thousands on a Linn system and after it had been professionally installed said to me "I'm fairly happy with it but I expected it to do more", WTF! I think they must've been listening to the salesman too much!

A German colleague of mine was big into his HiFi, in that the turntable sat on a concrete pillar which was sunk into the concrete floor, and then the separates sat on another one...

I would say if folks are using itunes on a mac buying an apogee one will be the best upgrade you ever bought.