Well spotted Gofaster...965BX LE Discrete, owned from new, snapped up for £250 in a sale in 1996. 😀 I'll never sell it. Lovely. Got it re-clocked a few years back too.
Audiolabs were second hand about 9 years ago, driving AVI Biggatrons that came from a closing down studio. Warm detailed sources, analytical amps and speakers.
The Planar 25 replaced the Thorens 166 mk2 that (recently) got me back to vinyl after selling my Planar 3 about 9 years ago. That was an error, just glad I never parted with my records.
The 25 is lovely. Got an RB300 with clear audio sixstream rewire and interconnects on it as the 25 was armless.
P25 looks ace, I'm slightly envious. That was a really good deal, the RB300 must sound superb on it.
If I didn't have to splash out on an additional TT-PSU I would've snapped that plinth up.
As it is the deal I got on the P6 was too good to miss.
Happy days all round
Happy days indeed, must have listened to 5 or 6 hours of music yesterday alone!
Why would you need a PSU for the 25? Different hertz where you are? I thought they just changed the pulley wheel (33:45 bit)Could be wrong though.
Your P6 is lovely btw, post a photo when it's got its green plinth please. When I added up the TT (£200) arm (£160) and cartridge (£120) it's not that much of a bargain so I'm betting the P6 was the better deal, being the better table. Hope you enjoy it.
Will do, currently awaiting sourcing of 'sticky pad' in order to mount motor in green plinth.
Didn't you already have the arm waiting to go on the P25? I agree, not such a bargain if sourcing everything separately (although much prefer look of P25 to the P5 and 7), but if switchinghg bits over then a nice upgrade in sound and aesthetics for £200
No, arm was "new" too. So P25 was £360 (one went on ebay the other day for £340 so it's about right, no cartridge ) but my RB300 has Clearaudio six stream cable worth an apparent £450 8O, sure the cable looks much better than the standard tone arm wire and interconnects from my old Planar 3 with RB300.
Not sure I'd have paid that amount for some wire and someone to fit it so sort of convincing myself it is probably better than an RB600 that should have been on the P25.
It's all lovely though and sounds superb to me.
the "picture frame" around the P5 and P7 is pretty bad looking compared to the 25. What were they thinking.
http://www.oregonlive.com/music/index.ssf/2014/11/does_vinyl_really_sound_better.html
Picked up from
http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/12/14/1527220/vinyl-record-pressing-plants-struggle-to-keep-up-with-demand
It's pretty basic, but interesting nonetheless.
Some intersting and sensible comments for once - warts and all.
Interesting that vinyl is now being compared against streaming audio and mp3 rather than against CD.
I think that's because CD is largely over as a format.
@coolhandluke - 100% agree, the P25 is so much better looking than others of that ilk. Although, the picture frame versions still seem very popular!
Have you seen the current listed P5.. He's carried out some interesting 'mods' of his own.
I would love to know what the rewire on your arm actually translates to in terms of performance. Almost certainly not a £400 improvement leap (in relative terms). But it must sound better than standard, right? Other than adjustability, that's the thing I like about my new RB301, the phono lead is much more substantial and has a real quality feel over my old RB250 jobbie.
May make sod all difference to output but makes me feel good anyway!
Jools - until there's a sea change in ease of transfer from CD to equivalent quality streaming - I'll always turn to my (fairly substantial) CD collection for a fix.
Plus, CD's are available in abundance and super cheap, and can actually be interesting to collect different mixes and releases from through the years and listen to the changes.
I may of course change my mind, but I don't see me dropping my CD-63 for many years. Probably as I'm a lazy arse though, and I can't be bothered with all the new acronyms!
I would love to know what the rewire on your arm actually translates to in terms of performance. Almost certainly not a £400 improvement leap (in relative terms). But it must sound better than standard, right? Other than adjustability, that's the thing I like about my new RB301, the phono lead is much more substantial and has a real quality feel over my old RB250 jobbie.
I changed the wiring on the SME arm on my LP12 (to change it from a DIN connector mainly) but couldn't notice a difference other than it having better connectors etc. afterwards. I think I might have rewired the RB250 om my TD160 as well but again without any sonic difference being noticeable to me (the wiring was a bit rough previously - I hadn't been expecting to hear differences).
Given the low outputs that cartridges work at I could see the wiring making a difference, especially for a low-output MC. I've always used high output MC's and MM's though, which might be why I didn't notice anything.
On the vinyl v CV v streaming debate: My own view is that I generally prefer vinyl although probably not because it's better and/or more accurate but just because I prefer the sound (which is all that really matters to me). In my systems the turntables tend to be better (as in more expensive anyway!) than the CD players which could be a factor I suppose.
The streamer v CD thing is tougher though. Initially I wasn't that impressed with the sound quality from streamed output for anything other than background listening. When I stopped using iTunes and instead ripped my CD's again to a lossless format and introduced a DAC into the system the gap narrowed very significantly. I'd still say I prefer my best CD player (a Naim one) over the streamed output but I'd say it was at least a match for the other CD players I've got. Given the DAC I'm using was something like £30-40 (it's the Maplin one which looks very plasticy but sounds pretty good) that's a pretty good result. Quite possibly with a better DAC I'd prefer the streamed output to the Naim player as well. I certainly found that I was using the CD player a lot less once I had the streaming solution with the DAC in-place.
I don't have a streaming set-up in my London place yet but there I also find I don't listen to CD's much, instead using vinyl almost exclusively.
I prefer the sound of my streamed Sonos through my DAC to my CD player.
In fact, if it wasn't for the wife not being able to master the Sonos interface I would sell it.
In all of my my years in hifi I have never heard a decent turntable and I find it quite frustrating not to be able to join into the digital vs analogue debate, grrr....
Oh I've heard plenty of "decent" turntables. I have one. A Linn LP12/Ittok. I've yet to hear an "accurate" one though.
It's amazing how different peoples perceptions of what they hear differ (in a musical sense).
It also makes me a little sad when people say they haven't heard a quality TT set up. Through a good phono stage, with a quality source, vinyl sounds so lovely. To me, it does have an inherent warmth that is so often spoken of, but also, when I sit back and pick out all of the subtle details hidden deep in the groove, I'm genuinely amazed that a plastic disc with a needle being dragged through it can sound quite so brilliant.
I should add that I have a very limited understanding of sound quality and these are only observations based on my ear. Vinyl can never be accused of being a convenient source, and I'm sure a fairly large percentage of enjoyment for most listeners of vinyl is it's nostalgic and tactile nature.
I'm realistic about vinyl's abilities it isn't as capable of deep bass, I'd also argue it's not as dynamic as digital can be. On the other hand I for some reason just find vinyl more satisfying.
A record deck suffers from far worse crosstalk than a CD, much more compression, and also distortion from the needle only tracking squarely in the groove during a very small proportion of its travel through the grooves.
However it is the compression and the higher crosstalk that probably makes vinyl sound better in some cases.
Noel Keywood from one of the hifi mags made a device, called a Frankestein or similar, that introduced some more crosstalk on a CD players output and that seemed to get some approval, but not enough for the product to remain on sale for long.
People also rave about the quality of live radio 3 broadcasts on VHF, but that was a digital signal before transmission, and only 14 bits at that.
I would love to know what the rewire on your arm actually translates to in terms of performance. Almost certainly not a £400 improvement leap (in relative terms). But it must sound better than standard, right
No idea, but it looks a lot nicer than a standard RB300 arm wire and interconnect. The wires through the arm are incredibly fine. The interconnects are as fat as your finger!
Clear audio sixstream is a silly price too. Someone's lost a packet on it. (Hopefully not me)
It is pretty extraordinary what was ultimately achieved using vinyl given the obvious limitations - before it was completely outclassed by CD.
Adding crosstalk to a CD may well make them sound more like LPs which will appeal to those who prefer analogue, though to do the job properly you would need reduce the dynamic range and frequency response too, then add a dusting of distortion. That is the combination that gives vinyl its characteristic warm, cosy sound.
As for Radio 3 - 14 bits would give as much dynamic range as vinyl.
Right, we all enjoy nice rounded curves in our music whilst yours does steps of those curves trying to mimic them, but ultimately missing small chunks out. It's that bit between the right angle of your step and our arc we think you are missing.
You just don't realise it.
It is pretty extraordinary what was ultimately achieved using vinyl given the obvious limitations - before it was completely outclassed by CD
I don't think this is right and nor do most audio bods with better systems than either of us..
Noel Keywood from one of the hifi mags made a device, called a Frankestein or similar, that introduced some more crosstalk on a CD players output and that seemed to get some approval, but not enough for the product to remain on sale for long.
One of my CD players sports a valve output stage, the whole point of which is to make it more analogue sounding. It works quite well as I enjoy the sound - although unfortunately like other valve kit I've owned it's a bit temperamental.
Anyone got a recommendation for somewhere in London to get valve kit fixed? As well as the CD player my beloved Audio Note valve amp is also playing up at the moment.
I don't think this is right and nor do most audio bods with better systems than either of us.
I don't think vinyl was ever outclassed and whether you felt it was bettered by CD is really down to personal preference. For example my best CD players is a Naim one and my best turntable is a Linn LP12. Is the Naim player more accurate than the LP12 and with a better dynamic range - definitely (although I don't think Naim players really aim for accuracty). Do I prefer the sound of the Naim player to the LP12 - no (although I enjoy both).
If you measures their performance based on frequency graphs etc. then maybe the CD player would outclass the turntable - but not when you measure then using your ears!
Right, we all enjoy nice rounded curves in our music whilst yours does steps of those curves trying to mimic them, but ultimately missing small chunks out. It's that bit between the right angle of your step and our arc we think you are missing.
Yes the common misrepresentation of quantisation.
whether you felt it was bettered by CD is really down to personal preference
I wouldn't argue with that.
If you measures their performance based on frequency graphs etc. then maybe the CD player would outclass the turntable - but not when you measure then using your ears!
I don't use any measurement devices. I listen to music.
I don't think this is right and nor do most audio bods with better systems than either of us.
So clearly I'm not an audio bod. I just enjoy listening to music. That is predominantly classical and largely in that small scale chamber music. CD certainly seems to reproduce that much better than LP. To my ears of course.
I look at audio systems producing only a facsimile of the 'truth', and if you find one systems facsimile more believable/enjoyable than anothers then it is better, even if it is less 'accurate' - such as by adding compression or boosting a frequency band.
The problems start when you want your system to maintain that believable quality over a variety of music styles.
The problems start when you want your system to maintain that believable quality over a variety of music styles.
I certainly agree with that. I once had a listen to some Klipsch horn-loaded speakers. Massive things built like PA speakers. Superb for rock, rubbish for choral.
Of course if you must have the very best:
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/features/handmade-vinyl-albums-yours-for-2500-9926688.html ]How much for a boxed set?[/url]
@TurneyGuy - agreed, with my current set up, accoustic guitar and voices sound spine tinglingly good, and jazz just has me gasping breaths of joy at how good it sounds. AC/DC on the other hand, gets a bit messy when they turn it up to 11.
I'm trying to tweak and find a balance. However, I don't think I've ever heard rock/metal etc sound just how it's 'supposed' to on a system.
On that note, what equipment is regarded best for playback of rock and metal? Good old NAD?
A well damped room is my tip for rough recordings.
Ok, for those who asked for a pic, here's the RP6 finally set up:
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http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/2D0270F8-0C73-4D44-BE9F-7876CE7BF26D_zpsndblzbdf.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
[URL= http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/5B72D8A5-5C24-485D-BD87-67EF711E087F_zpsjgo1ogph.jp g" target="_blank">
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/5B72D8A5-5C24-485D-BD87-67EF711E087F_zpsjgo1ogph.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
Had the cart finally fitted on Friday, so still running in. Loving the newfound bass retrieval and sound staging so far. Mind you, it's not forgiving of poor quality pressings.
Also picked up a set of Neat Mystique II's. Despite the crappy name they sound simply brilliant. Came across them completely by chance and went to demo them based on favourable reviews. Socks knocked off by how good they sound. Punchy controlled bass and incredible clarity on vocals and guitar.
Well chuffed.
Nice! I always hankered after Neat speakers.
I ended up buying a PR6 last week!!! Black, slight seconds due to a very slight mark on the plinth. £629 delivered.
Planar 25 for sale with RB300 arm and Clearaudio cable.
To be fair its not far that behind the RP6 with the same Elys 2 cartridge
Stick up a pic of the 'mark' on the plinth if you can? Always wondered what makes a slight second a slight second..
And yes buying the RP6 actually ended up a more logical step. After selling off the upgrades that I had already bought for the Planar 2, plus the table itself (currently selling for more than I paid) - plus making money on the plinth swap - the RP6 will have ended up costing me something around £275 for essentially a brand new table and cartridge.
My son played me a songs he's recorded earlier. Played back from the computer via an external sound card to a 70W per channel amp through Monitor BX2s it sounded excellent. Until he picked up the guitar to ask my opinion on some amp settings. Then my ears got a Telecaster with some high output pickups through a 150W Fender amp with a couple of 12" Celestions in it. Hi-fi is all very well but still misses the original by a country mile.
If you look into how classic vinyls were originally recorded you're spending a fortune reproducing sound on pressing which are the result of some very approximative and cheap-jack recording methods. Rage against the Machine's Tom miked up a tiny practice amp to get that huge guitar sound. The rolling stones recorded in rooms with the acoustics of a barn - literally.
So where am I going with this? If you want to reproduce rock and roll then lots of watts and some huge drivers will get you closer than worrying about vinyl/CD/mp3.
TurnerGuy - Member
A record deck suffers from far worse crosstalk than a CD, much more compression, and also distortion from the needle only tracking squarely in the groove during a very small proportion of its travel through the grooves.However it is the compression and the higher crosstalk that probably makes vinyl sound better in some cases.
I used to use the vinyl crosstalk as a handy means for making compilation tapes. I discovered fairly early on that listening through 'phones you could hear a pre-echo of the next track come in fractionally before the music started, so using a three-head deck like my Aiwa F-770 I could pause the tape at the end of a track, drop the stylus just at the end of the track before the one I'm going to record and listen for the 'ghost' music and hit the pause button. Worked a treat.
Still can't listen to [i]Go Your Own Way[/i] without expecting the music to jump tracks about a minute and a half in, though...
Vinyl's great if you're paying twenty-odd quid for a perfectly mastered 180gm virgin vinyl disc, however, such things didn't exist in the early 80's, except for very rare half-speed masters, which cost a fortune.
Which is why I abandoned vinyl for CD in 1982, I was so sick and tired of the utter crap that was being out by cost-cutting record companies.
When a disc is so thin that you can bend it until the sides touch, and hold a black record up to the light and be able to see light through it, you know the format is screwed.
Especially when, on inspecting a record that continually skips and seeing little white specks, they turn out to be fragments of paper from the labels of the recycled albums that were ground up and melted down to make new albums.
As TurnerGuy says, vinyl is compressed, it has to be, otherwise high frequencies will cause the head of the cutting lathe that produces the metal stampers to 'ring' which can then cause overheating and wreck the head, and bass has to be reduced to avoid transients causing tracks to run into each other, exactly the problem with my Fleetwood Mac album on [i]Go Your Own Way[/i].
Vinyl can sound fantastic; if you're using quality kit, and are prepared to pay silly money for new vinyl.
I gave that up thirty years ago, I'm afraid.
I think the missing link that all you hifi buffs with your fancy turntables need is a Denon AU-310 Moving Coil Step-Up Transformer.
One of these bad boys....
http://www.christographer.co.uk/corporate--events/denon-moving-coil-transform.html
Just so happens I have one here doing nothing. I have no idea what it really does, just I needed it to run my system 20 years ago. Apparently they are quite desirable and seem to make good money on Ebay. If anyone can use it then feel free to make me an offer. It is no good to me.
Without so much as a Google, I'd guess it allows moving coil carts to drive a moving magnet input phono stage.
I'll pass though, got an adjustable phono stage 🙂
Edukator is kinda right, there's no replacement for displacement....
.... but which partner is going to let one have a set of guitar cabs running as mids?
Maybe what we really need is Tannoy Westminster Royals.
I know I do.
And the front room to fit them in 🙂
If it's rock you're playing, forget the Tannoys. Go for Klipsch La Scala
http://www.klipsch.com/la-scala-ii-floorstanding-speaker
With horn loaded bass and compression drivers for mid and high, they sound and feel like PA speakers. Useless for any other music though.
Stick up a pic of the 'mark' on the plinth if you can? Always wondered what makes a slight second a slight second..
Finally got around to putting a photo up as requested, of the damage that made my Rega RP6 "slight seconds" and £270 cheaper than RRP..
it took me a few minutes to spot it it did.
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