On a recent inspection I found that the inside edge on all four tyres on my A6 Avant had worn badly on the inside edge (despite the rest of the face of the tyre wearing evenly).
My understanding of why this happens is that the camber is set up incorrectly (usually suspension issues if not manually adjusted for performance or aesthetic reasons).
However the Audi main dealer is saying it isn't warranty work as it is 'wheel alignment' and not covered by warranty then went on to ask if I check tyre pressures twice a month (despite it having auto pressure monitoring!), whether it was the original tyres, whether I regularly carry heavy loads, whether I had kerbed it etc etc.
I argued that it isn't a wheel alignment issue and that alignment is something very different to camber (which is clearly what is causing this (as confirmed by the garage that changed the tyres last week) – especially believing this as all four tyres have worn in the same way.
I have owned the car from new, it has been serviced by the garage I took it to this morning and I have never had any work done by anyone else.
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Thoughts please....
Tyres are a consumable and not covered under the warranty will be the most likely answer.
Is yours a quattro vehicle? it's not unknown for 4WD cars to wear a particular edge of a tyre more than others, my BMW X used to wear the outside.
That is very excessive wear to one edge of the tyre so something is definitely not right with your alignment but I dont think you will get much out of Audi. At best they might give you a free alignment check before fitting some very expensive new tyres for you.
There's wheel alignment and wheel alignment...the camber is obviously out of kilter, but there are several reasons why this might be the case. Given the cost of premium tyres, it might be an idea to swallow a hundred quid or so hit and go to an independent garage with four wheel laser alignment kit and get a written report of how far out the suspension geometry actually is before challenging Audi.
For clarification, I am not bothered about getting refunded for the tyres (as they were due a change anyway), I just don't expect to be paying for Audi to set the car up correctly this time around.
And yes it is a Quattro version.
Are they the original Bridgestone ER300 tyres fitted at the factory? They look like the correct tread pattern.
There's a know issue with them being a really hard and cheap compound that wears oddly. The ones on my Fabia wore the inside edge like yours on the driver's side and wore the passenger's side at an angle, like the camber was too much. The geometry was checked as soon as I noticed and it was all inside tolerances. My bosses A4 came with them on and did the same thing as yours, replaced by the fleet people (ATS) and they said it's common on VAG cars with those fitted originally.
Both cars have worn the replacements evenly without any adjustments to the suspension so it's the tyres being crap in our cases. VAG cars do seem to have issues with using certain tyres due to the setup they use. IIRC the Fabia Vrs had a problem with a certain Dunlop tyre and the Golf would chew through a certain Goodyear tyre too.
Yes they were the original tyres (and I have replaced with the same due to it being a lease vehicle). I will need to keep my eye on them for the last year of ownership I have of the car.
That looks like a lot of negative camber along with excessive toe out but that would really only be on the fronts. I've seen the same wear patterns on all four tyres caused by speed humps when you straddle them rather than having one side of the car roll over them. Have a google for images of tyre wear caused by speed humps.
I've seen the same wear patterns on all four tyres caused by speed humps when you straddle them rather than having one side of the car roll over them.
I wondered this and I do have to regularly use some speed bumps, but I didn't think I go over them that regularly as to do so much damage.
I suggest you get the geo checked by the Audi dealer. If it's OK then you should have warranty claim for faulty tyres. If it's out then you have an argument over whether is was correct at point of sale or has gone out of spec due to usage/potholes/speed humps etc.
How many miles has the car done? this will greatly effect how reasonable it is for the geo to need re adjusting.
It's done around 25k miles and is coming up three years old (end of September 2016)
I can't see the photo due to our rubbish firewalls at work but a couple of things, camber is a wheel alignment issue as it is a measurement that is taken at the wheel, in degrees, with positive or negative outcome, so I can see their argument there.
However if all four wheels have worn the same then I would suggest that there is something incorrect (unless they tyre issue Milky1980 says above has happened, not something I have heard of although I'm a little out of touch with car tyres to be fair).
If you had kerbed or caused some damage in any way (not saying you have) then you would probably only see issues on one or two of the wheels.
My suggestion would be to have the wheel alignment checked and then see what the results of that are. Depending upon results you can argue the outcome, if all 4 wheels are out by the same amount then you have an argument. If everything is within tolerance then you have the tyre issue that Milky has mentioned.
I too had an A6 Avant Quattro, auto box and relatively heavy on tyres (still got over 20k). We made sure we rotated them and had all work done by a tyre specialist. Audi main dealer was always trying to get us to pay for expensive and imho even "invented or created" problems to fix (have independent garage's told me they susoected that too). As soon as warranty expired we found an excellent independent. We owned the car trouble free for 7 years and 110.000 miles. Cars are great, some dealers are far from that.
If the dealer won't pay for the setup/alignment work under warranty or goodwill take the car elsewhere - including a different Audi dealership if you wish. Its not a warranty issue to have alignment work done elsewhere than a dealership. Do not buy tyres from main dealer. Do not agree to any work without a price estimate.
Good luck.
It's done around 25k miles and is coming up three years old (end of September 2016)
Are those the original tyres?
If so I'd say you'd done well to get that many miles from them on that sort of car.
Are those the original tyres?If so I'd say you'd done well to get that many miles from them on that sort of car.
I know - I was very surprised to get that much out of them (it's a 3.0l V6 turbo diesel with 240bhp or something like that) – I am not a silly driver but I am not exactly slow off the mark either! My wife's Mazda 3 (150bhp) is lucky to get 12k out of a set of fronts!
My boss used to get this on his RS6 and he drives like miss daisy. Tyres would last around 5000 miles before going through to the canvas on the inside. He was told it was normal because the car is set up for track with a lot of camber. We had a google and sure enough a lot of owners complained of the same problem. At over 2k for a new set it annoyed him enough to get rid of the car.
Johndoh. I had a 3.0 TDi Quattro S-Line until recently. Never had that issue in 48k miles with tyres using original fitted Michelins or the Goodyear F1 Assymetrics I replaced them with. I was running the optional 19's with the lowered s-line suspension.
If yours is a similar spec - I don't think they are meant to wear like that.
Edit. I drive pretty conservatively.
OP we had similar wear issues (2007 2.7tdi so prior model to yours) thats why we rotated tyres and had alignment checked every 12-18 months. I do think there is an element of "normal" about what you are experiencing. Again not an expert just a punter.
Mine was the then new 2012 Avant model - so probably similar to yours Johndoh.
Yeah I think so – mine is the 'Black Edition' so it has the even bigger 20'' wheels on and slightly lowered suspension over the S-Line too (or so I believe).
I have to say that the auto gearbox on the 2.0 TDi A5 I have as a courtesy car is significantly more responsive than the LagBox in my car too.
It's done around 25k miles and is coming up three years old (end of September 2016)
Really is not a warranty issue. 25k miles on a set of tyres is perfectly reasonable.
In fact why haven't you been checking the tread more carefully over the years? I cant believe people drive around with cars in that state 🙄
You could take the car to an independent proper 4 wheel alignment specialist and see where the alignment is compared to Audi tolerances, however I am sure Audi have every reason to tell you to jog on because you didn't bring the car to them when the tyres started wearing, or get the alignment checked regularly?
Then of course, there is the fact that Audi don't really do suspension very well, so they go through tyres quicker than most 😀
I cant believe people drive around with cars in that state
I wondered how long this would take to come up. In reality I check the tyres very regularly but as they wore on the inside edge and there is very little clearance on the wheel arches it was very difficult to see without getting under the car.
Yes I *could* have got under the car (or put full lock on the front wheels) to check the inside edges but as every other aspect of the tyre condition and wear seemed to be as expected (as I say in the OP, the wear on the face of the tyres was even across 100% of each of the four tyres) then I didn't expect to have such heavy wear in such an unexpected place – in over 30 years of car ownership I have never experienced such odd tyre wear and that is why it slipped through the net.
Fair enough, I must be odd that I quite regularly do put the car on full lock to check the tyres.
Yes, I know to do it but my (clearly wrong) assumption was that the tyres seemed fine in every other way and I really wouldn't have expected it to happen on a car I have owned from new and therefore know its history completely (ie, I know it has never been involved in an accident).
I wondered how long this would take to come up. In reality I check the tyres very regularly but as they wore on the inside edge and there is very little clearance on the wheel arches it was very difficult to see without getting under the car.
More to the point, how has the Audi dealer, who presumably services the car, not advised you , in 3 years, that your tyres are wearing abnormally, unless it's a recent issue. Uneven wear would have been apparent long before they were worn to the cords.
My money's on the speed bumbps being the cause.
More to the point, how has the Audi dealer, who presumably services the car,
Due to its mileage and the fact it is on the 'Eco' servicing system (it tells me when it needs a service via the car computer) it has only had one service so far and that was some time ago.
surprisingly common issue on many cars. (it is not the tyres...)
also, I would never consider TPMS to be a replacement for checking inflation pressure in relation to recommendations (particularly in case of loading variations). TPMS is primarily a safety device to warn in case of puncture.
Camber isn't the only influencing geometry on shoulder wear & potentially there may also be some toe effect. Is the camber actually adjustable on a A6? Did the garage already measure & adjust the alignment?
25k is not bad life on a set of tyres on such a large powerful car & wheel alignment does wander with age & dynamic input hence the dealer is quite within their rights to not cover under warranty but I would have hoped they would be slightly more human (I'm assuming it's a fairly new car & has always been dealer serviced - 2nd service visit?)
I would have hoped they would be slightly more human (I'm assuming it's a fairly new car & has always been dealer serviced - 2nd service visit?)
Yes - serviced by them, as were my last two Audis.
Saying that, after they could not fix either of the issues I asked them to investigate at the last service (mysteriously blowing fuses when using the rear 12v output and squealing coming from front nearside wheel under braking) they gave me the service (as well as wash & vac) for free so they aren't always all bad.
Best money you can spend is a good indy specialist to check alignment etc, check pistonheads. Had this on my RS4, Audi tried to sell me it with bad internal camber wear, not as bad as that but close. Before I bought I had it independently inspected at my cost - main issue being the front offside wheel assembly wasn't attached to the car really any more - this was 18 month old silver circle Audi vehicle....the list of warranty work was > $13,000 which was completed and re-checked before I took delivery. As well as a letter to Audi. Basically, assume the dealer would do a dump in your shoes and you are halfway there.
I feel better for writing that down, still a great car though.
Have you actually read your warranty? It should list what is included and excluded. Camber is wheel alignment (camber, castor, toe) so if the warranty specifically excluded wheel alignment - which I thought it probably will do as wheel alignment can change with use, so it was probably correct at the time of manufacture and you purchasing the car.
Whilst camber is wheel alignment in the sense that it's the angle of the wheels, it not an angle that's commonly adjusted. In fact, it's often not adjustable. On my 3 series, you have to permanently remove a pin in order to adjust camber, and the service instructions say that you should basically never need to do it.
I have to say that the auto gearbox on the 2.0 TDi A5 I have as a courtesy car is significantly more responsive than the LagBox in my car too.
Out of interest, which gearbox is in your A6?
Out of interest, which gearbox is in your A6?
I would guess CVT based on the age and being an Audi.
The newer A5 wil be one of the newer DSG style boxes I would think.
I would guess CVT based on the age and being an Audi.
It's a 63 plate with the DSG-style box (STronic) box. I believe the CVT (MultiTronic) was never used on the higher-powered cars and mine is a 3.0l.
Basically it is the same box with the same features in the A5 I am using today which just seems snappier, like they have tweaked the set-up a bit. I shall take it back to the garage the back way via some A roads to see what it's like in an extended drive on open roads rather than the commuter traffic I was in this morning.
FFS, despite having the car since 8am this morning, I just got a call asking if they can keep it until tomorrow as they didn't get a chance to look at it until late afternoon and now that they have they then wanted to check with the manager if they could do the tracking/camber check without charge to me (which he has, apparently, just approved) but it's now too late to do it today :-/
Bl00dy main dealers - what a shower.
For what it's worth, you could always have the castor/camber/toe angles changed a fraction to something more suitable than "standard spec", if it continues to rub.
I had to do that in the past with an RS Clio I had which wore tyres badly, a common approach was to slightly alter the setup to be more 'neutral'. Practically zero effect on day-to-day driving but better more even tyre wear.
The S-Tronic box is a 7 speed DSG, dual-clutch box in the 3.0 TDi A6. The bi-turbo 3.0 model uses a more traditional torque converter auto and is 8 speed.
Bl00dy AUDI main dealers - what a shower.
FIFY - its an Audi thing. I'd happily buy another but keep main dealer work to a minimum. For the different car manufacturers I have had they are worst.
Good news its being sorted.
Good news its being sorted.
Yep - there is that. 🙂
So despite saying they would do the work first thing this morning, they didn't start it until 1pm (ohh and I got a nice video sent to me of the car inspection - whoop-de-do).
Now they have just called to ask me if I want a complimentary wash and vac. Hell yes because I can see from the 'inspection video' that you have parked it up somewhere very muddy as the tyres are caked in it and there were big mud splashes up the side (I would be interested in knowing how *that* happened)...
ohh and I got a nice video sent to me of the car inspection
Even Ford do that these days... agree pointless. To me they may have well just send a video with £££ signs on it trying to justify replacing stuff that didn't need it.
What have they said anyhow?
there were big mud splashes up the side (I would be interested in knowing how *that* happened)...
They've got to take it for a [s]joy ride[/s] test drive to [s]see how fast it will go[/s] make sure everything's working properly.
They haven't said anything yet - just told me it is ready so I am going down to speak directly with them after work.
OP you are a little confused.
Wheel alignment or geometry comprises three things:
Toe (I think you referred to this as alignment)
Caster
Camber
So saying the alignment is out means some or all the above are out.
Alignment can change due to wear on suspension components and hitting potholes etc. Even things moving a tiny fraction can cause tyre wear like your picture - most people only get it setup when they notice wear on tyres but its worth doing every time you get new tyres all round.
It is a "wear and tear" thing, so rightly they refuse warranty. It could have been out when you bought the car, but how is anyone to know you haven't hit a pothole or bounced up and down kerbs?
When you get new tyres fitted, have them set the alignment. It shouldn't cost much more than £70, many kwik fit stores have the very good idiot-proof hunter laser system to do this, and you'll get a print out of before and after to show the setting in spec.
Wherever you take it make sure they check and set caster, camber and toe on the front and rear axles, not just the toe.
how is anyone to know you haven't hit a pothole or bounced up and down kerbs?
But all four tyres have worn in the same way – I don't accept I could have done anything to cause that. If I had hit a pothole it could thrown one corner out, but not the whole set.
And the tyres that wore out were the original set from new and the level of wear on the inside edge suggests the camber has been way out for a long time (I would suggest from new).
I do accept that 'camber' is part of the wheel alignment though.
As I suggested take it to a tyre specialist (or Audi if price is sensible) in 12 months and ask them to rotate tyres and recheck alignment stuff. Enjoy the car, I miss mine.
Don't let them wash it! Probably use some gritty sponge or brush and swirl up your paint..
I had a Q7. Front wheels always wore on the inside first. Seemingly a common problem. I used to get a 4 wheel drive wheel alignment whenever I bought new tyres. Seemed to even out the wear. Though I still needed to replace all the tyres every 12/18 months. The alignment was only £45 from Kwik for. If I didn't get it down the front tyres insides could wear down to illegal within 6-9 months!
Most tyre places will measure camber,castor and toe.
But then tell you they can only adjust the toe on the front.
Find a specialist alignment centre that will adjust it all if needed and ask for before and after printouts.
Kwickfit ats national tyre will only adjust front toe, don't use them.
Castor and camber is not quick to adjust and the manufacturer often dosent provide adjustment for rear toe,camber.
Modern fwd / awd cars with wide low profile tyres eat front tyres as so much is asked of them.
Full lock and check inner edges once a month..
As for straddling speed bumps being the cause don't be daft a tyre will rotate once over the speed bump not significant in total mileage.
Less of the load pedal, lower cornering speeds will save your tyres but that's not a normal driving style for Mr audi It seems.
So I finally collected the car last night and was hoping to report back today with the details of how far out things were – a point to which they admitted last night saying something like 'ye, the alignment was quite far out' and accepting that it must have been for quite some time.
However the report sheet I thought they had given me with the details on it wasn't in fact the figures of the various measurements but a simple safety check list.
From what I saw of the sheet with the measurements on (which was waved about in front of me quite quickly) was showing figures of +1.5, +1.8, +3.1 (the +3.1 was the highest figure I saw). I have no idea what those figures mean!
Anyway, they told me to book it in for another inspection in a few weeks time when the new tyres have got a few miles on them and they can check to see if things seem on track.
And I have a clean car for once.
My boss used to get this on his RS6 and he drives like miss daisy.
Miss Daisy had a chauffeur.
will save your tyres but that's not a normal driving style for Mr audi
It is for me! 🙂
"From what I saw of the sheet with the measurements on (which was waved about in front of me quite quickly) was showing figures of +1.5, +1.8, +3.1 (the +3.1 was the highest figure I saw). I have no idea what those figures mean!"
Those would be camber figures. + is positive, that is that the top of the wheel is leaning in towards the body of the car. The number is the degrees from dead upright that they're leaning by.
I don't know what the tolerances are for your car but you could find out via the V.A.G workshop manual, ELSAWIN.
For fast road use I run my mk3 Golf and Corrado at +1.5 on the front. After fine tuning it myself I have sttled on that setting to give the best cornering grip without wearing the tyres excessively or making the car unstable in a straight line. The rear isn't adjustable on either of them as they both use a torsion beam axle. Yours is almost certainly a multi link setup out back which would be adjustable for at least toe in.
My Jaguar has a multi link rear end and with two worn bushes and a worn track rod end the geometry is constantly changing, not good. It wobbles, especially over 100.. I need to rebuild it asap.
Have a read of the supension pages on Carbibles.com for a good, in depth explanation of car suspension sytems.
That wear you have is quite extreme, almost looks like they've been rubbing though I doubt it as all four are the same. Are the wheels the standard ones or were they an optional extra?
That wear you have is quite extreme, almost looks like they've been rubbing though I doubt it as all four are the same. Are the wheels the standard ones or were they an optional extra?
Yes I agree it does seem extreme (and I suspect the dealer felt the same as they have done the work for free). The wheels are Audi original equipment, however the car is a 'Black Edition S-Line' which gets slightly larger rims (19.5'' as opposed to 18'' on the standard S-Line) but it came from the factory like as a standard 'out of the box' variant of the car.
I thought they would be standard for the model. I just asked because some dealers have been known to swap bits about to make a particular car sell better without making sure they are actually suitable. Wheels with the wrong offset for example can cause problems with suspension, bearings and even trye rub if it's way out.
I've seen some pretty severe inside-edge tyre wear before. However that concave wear down to the canvas right on the shoulder but with some tread left right beside it is new to me. A friend of mine was a tyre fitter for years and a fellow car nut, I'll ask him what he thinks.
If the car were mine I would get a tread depth gauge (a couple of quid) and check the inside, outside and centre every week and write it down so you can keep track of any uneven wear. It sounds boring and is a hassle but it does mean you're informed if you end up in the same situation again.
Interesting to see above comment about larger rins / lower profile tyres being mkre sensitive, I suspected this might be the case.
lazlowoodbine - Member
For fast road use I run my mk3 Golf and Corrado at +1.5 on the front. After fine tuning it myself I have sttled on that setting to give the best cornering grip without wearing the tyres excessively or making the car unstable in a straight line
My Jaguar has a multi link rear end ....... It wobbles, especially over 100
I presume you live in a country with no speed limits, or have a private racetrack ?.... 🙂
A friend of mine was a tyre fitter for years and a fellow car nut, I'll ask him what he thinks.
I'd be interested in hearing as it really surprised me to see the wear when I took the wheel off (I had an unrelated puncture which then ripped the tyre to shreds so I asked the tyre fitters to investigate things). Thankfully that happened otherwise I would have tried to eek out more milage on them (they hadn't worn right down to the wear indicator on the tyres) and my wife is taking our two little girls on a long motorway journey to see friends next Monday – and a high speed blow out could easily have happened 😯
And yes I will certainly be keeping a much closer eye on the tyre wear from now on.
For fast road use I run my mk3 Golf and Corrado at +1.5 on the front.
Would I be correct in assuming on a standard unmodified car the measurements should have read 0 then (ie, should never have been anywhere near +1.5)?
I presume you live in a country with no speed limits, or have a private racetrack ?
Erm.. Er... I meant kph, not mph..
and a high speed blow out could easily have happened
It can and does happen, although if it's any comfort these modern low profile, reinforced sidewall tyres usually let you know well before it all goes too wrong. A total failure which lets all the air out before you can stop is actually pretty unlikely.
You may also find that they're run-flats. Are they really heavy, hugely expensive and give the ride quality of a knackered old Transit? If so then they probably are.
EDIT:
I have actually cocked up on the camber. NEGATIVE camber is when the wheels lean in at the top, POSITIVE is when they lean out. No modern car that I know of uses positive camber as it is counter productive. I got negative and camber the wrong way round, I blame the painkillers I'm on at the moment.. I most definitely run negative camber on my cars.
The idea of camber is that as a car leans outwards through a corner (and of course the wheel leans with it) that the wheels stays as upright as possible so that the whole of the tyre is in contact with the road. If the wheel is already leaning in when the car's upright then with a bit of experimentation it can be set up to be upright when cornering. Of course it means the the inside whell while cornering is now leaning alot more but as it is not really providing any meaningful grip it's a worthwhile compromise.
RE: The "+" infront of the figure you saw: It doesn't necesarrily mean that the figures you saw meant that they did find [u]positive[/u] camber and anyway that would not be compatible with the uneven tyre wear you have.
It could well be that that those figures were under a heading of negative camber, but seeing as they didn't let you examine them properly it's hard to say.
I don't know what figures your particular car should run but I'd put money on it being negative to some degree rather than 0, or dead upright.
Oh I've really confused things now, sorry.
😀
I will just have to monitor over the next few weeks and see how the new tyres fare. Cheers.
OP - would you have same car again ? Wondering about a 2.0 diesel Quattro avant in a few months...
Iainc - yes I think I would - it's a nice drive and surprisingly smooth despite the huge rims and low profile tyres (certainly more forgiving than the A5 I had as a courtesy car which felt 'bangy' on uneven roads in the same way my old style A6 did).
I wouldn't get another auto though - the lag in taking up drive at junctions drives me mad at times.
[s]If you got that car a few years ago and it's a 2 litre then it's probably a multitronic CVT gearbox? Which I think Audi have stopped using now.
EDIT - You've got 4wd so it won't be that box.[/s]
I really should read the whole thread first 🙂
😉
BTW - the newer box in the A5 I had as a courtesy car was quicker - I asked at the garage and apparently they have made some minor updates to make it engage more quickly.
OK. Read the OP, and haven't really read the rest, so apologies if this has already been sorted.
Thats really poor and uneven wear, which cannot have been caused by incorrect pressures. Having spend a more than a decade in the fleet industry I have seen this happen many many times. Dealers will ALWAYS try to wriggle out of this, but will always either give in eventually or when a complaint goes to the manufacturer.
Correct observation by one that tyres are not covered by warranty, kinda true, but not strictly true. They are: firstly they if if they were the OE tyres and were manufactured incorrectly, and secondly (in your case) they are in effect covered by the warranty because a fault with the car has caused them to wear incorrectly causing you a consequential loss.
Mercedes, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Land Rover, Mini, Saab , etc etc- I have either had them done on warranty on my own car then re-aligned by the dealer for organised it a customer (I have lost count), give them hell and don't budge. Its not your fault, so its theirs, simple as that. If you need any more info/guidance please feel free to email. You may have to excavate higher int he dealer group or to the manufacturer. Or sue as a last resort.
Incidentally that can be caused by too much negative camber, but could just as easily be caster, toe or all.
Cheers Moe - The garage checked and fixed the geometry without charge (and washed n vacced too) and asked me to bring it back in in a few weeks to check how it is going with the new tyres.
I wasn't bothered about getting the tyres paid for as they had 25k on them anyway and were due to be replaced.