[Closed] Heel and toe down-shifting

The pedal box on a road car isn't generally designed for heel and toe.

you know you're not really supposed to use your heel, don't you 😉

I always found it depended on pedal setup - if you can brake with the ball of your big toe and use the outside of your foot to blip the throttle by rocking your foot it's ok. Most road cars aren't really setup for this though.

It was easier with non-servo brakes as you can put more weight on the brake pedal to lever your foot against.

When the OH had her Corrado I started to learn and got ok at it, but having a succession of newer cars with DBW throttles and over-servoed brakes means it's a bit trickier. Still prefer to rev-match on downshifts aven if I'm not H&Ting as I feel it's a bit more mechanically sympathetic

Used to do this on my Mtisuibishi Colt 1.1 - awesome little 3 cyl engine that loved to be rrrrevvved 😀 wasn't so easy in my the diesel auto that followed...

Yeah I wasn't using my heel more the middle right of my foot on the loud pedal. The pedals don't seem ideal for it but I think the floor hinged accelerator helps a little as its a decent size.

The brake sensitivity seems to be the main issue at the moment!

I used to be able to do it in the Impreza. In the Octavia the brakes were way to sensitive and I never mastered it. The Fabia has a DSG gearbox so the engine gets blipped automatically when I change down early 🙂

Rachel

I can do it, but only in cars where the pedals are laid out in the way I like (ie in my caterham7) . The accelerator has to be right next to the brake, so I can use the ball of my foot to brake, and the right side of my foot to blip the accelerator.

I also have to be driving properly fast (on track of course, before the STW massive get involved) to be able to do it, otherwise the pressure I need on the brake pedal isnt enough to bring my foot in line with the accelerator. The accelerator is lower than the brake pedal by some way, so that its only when braking properley hard that they align near enough for heel and toe (or ball and right hand side).

My regular car does it all for me - flappy paddles.

Only thing I really acheived was nearly putting my skull through the windscreen as I grabbed a load of extra brake

tried heel and toe in my 1.4 Pug 306 once. not entirely sure why.

Back in the day, yes. With my old mini I had no choice was the synchro was shot, that was in 1980 and I think I'm a bit out of practice !

Can anyone out there actually do this effectively in the car?!

Yes, I learned to do it in the MkII in which I learned to drive. No real point, just tried it for the hell of it. Although syncro on 2nd was a bit rough so this helped smooth shifts. I could do it when driving gently too although you are supposed to be standing on the brakes hard at the time. The Fiesta didn't have that sharp brakes of course but they were servo assisted.

But as above, it doesn't work in many cars due to pedal position.

depressed the brake like a clutch pedal and instantly gave himself and 6 other occupants whiplash.

I almost piled into the back of a car who'd passed me as I was riding up the A38 out of Bristol then started to slow to pull into a layby. Only he actually slammed the brakes full on. He apologused profusely, it was the first time he'd driven an auto and he did that thing where you instinctively go to push the clutch to the floor and hit the brake instead.

I wasn't cross, having done it myself only without cyclists around, so I gave him a lesson on auto driving 🙂

I blip normal downshifts to make them smoother, but there is no way I could heel and toe.
The throttle is too far below the brake, you'd have to brake so hard to reach both pedals you'd headbutt the windscreen.

I'm led to believe a lot of cars now won't allow you to brake and accelerate at the same time either.

Combination of this:

I used to be able to do it in the Impreza.

I also have to be driving properly fast (on track of course, before the STW massive get involved) to be able to do it, otherwise the pressure I need on the brake pedal isnt enough to bring my foot in line with the accelerator.

I would do it in my Caterham, but all the pedals were adjustable and you could set it up to work. No brake servo and the car weighed just over 500kg.

Cant do it in any other car as the pedals are in the wrong place.

I do the equivalent on my motorcycles however, but thats toe and wrist instead.

Most modern cars, especially VWs don't allow you to do it. They sense the brake is being pushed and don't allow a throttle input.

Auto box with auto blip is the way forward.

somouk - Member

Most modern cars, especially VWs don't allow you to do it. They sense the brake is being pushed and don't allow a throttle input.

Auto box with auto blip is the way forward.

Some manuals have this too, 370Z for instance.

I do pretty much every time, it's become second nature.

I learnt years ago and started out by practicing the foot movement with the engine off, then pushing the brake whilst pushing the throttle to a certain rpm. Also start blipping the throttle on upshifts and downshifts. It only took a few weeks to get it spot on

Also start blipping the throttle on upshifts

Unless you take forever to shift gears there shouldn't be a need for it.

As for heel-toeing, it's much easier when you are on it than when you are pootling around town and there it is, imo, pointless. I also double clutch when I need to drop a couple gears as my car has just about enough low-end torque to pull the skin off a rice-pudding.

I've never managed to do it, but haven't ever driven anything that you would call a sports car. I still match the revs for smooth downshifts, that's easy enough.

Could do it* years ago when I had a mk1 MX5 as the pedals were nice and close.

*Badly.

Depends on the shoes I'm wearing. In my beemer I can do it in my Salomons, but not my 5:10s.

The bigger issue is getting a 2.0l diesel engine to actually react to a quick prod of the throttle...

Not an especially essential skill for road driving, but a nice feeling when you get it right.

Used to enjoy a bit of H&T in my VTi Honda, cracking engine and gearbox.
Now drive a CVT so I am always at the correct revs without choice.

I miss my 8,400rpm redline. 🙁
The Micra won't spit flames out the rear either. 🙁

I learned to perfect the brake with the ball of your foot and blip the throttle with the side of it technique. Works pretty well if the pedals are setup for it and as has probably been said, that's not always the case.

You get the benefits more on a torquey engine. I used to own a TVR Griffith 500 and a bodged downshift in that would overload the rear wheels and even cause them to lock up. On a Honda S2000 that I also owned it wasn't so much of a problem.

Either way, get it right and makes for much smoother progress.

I used to own a TVR Griffith 500 and a bodged downshift in that would overload the rear wheels and even cause them to lock up

I used to own a TVR Griffith 500 and a bodged downshift in that would overload the rear wheels and even cause them to lock up

I used to do it when I had a succession of shit cars that needed the throttle blip to stop them from cutting out - my rubbish nova for one

But on modern cars there's no point and never a clear enough road to learn without risking an accident....

My little AX was great for it, although some might say the pedals were too close for everyday driving, skinny trainers only in that car

I could left foot brake. My cousin spotted this and decided to copy it. He nearly went through the windscreen.

It's not hard if you stick with it - would NOT be happy with a car that wouldn't allow the input. The current lazy diesel allows for creamy-smooth downshifts. 🙂

Everyone chins the screen when they first left-foot brake. Everyone.

You don't need the clutch except for starting off; I drive my Passat everywhere doing clutchless changes - all you've got to do is coordinate the revs carefully, hold the lever against the gate and it will drop out of or into gear smoothly. With the Passat though across the gate from 2-3 and 4-5 sometimes aren't very smooth so I usually use the clutch for those.

It saves a lot of leg ache when driving through town.

Left foot braking is useful in older proper Land Rovers when driving down hill in low box; there's so much bounce and play in the gear train that it helps to use a little throttle against gentle left foot braking to wind up the transmission, which steadies the car considerably.

The sensor that stops you blipping whilst on the brakes is sometimes just a microswitch operated by the brake pedal. Mine's disconnected 🙂

Left foot braking is useful in older proper Land Rovers

This, it's also handy in slightly-more-modern (eg, post 2a) landys with worn syncros.

It's pretty satisfying in any car though.

On VW the engine fuelling is switched off under braking conditions , till the revs drop below 1000rpm. To either H+T or wind up the turbo ( by accelerating and braking similateounsly) you have to push down the accelerator twice , so brake , accelerate , lift off then get back on the gas without stopping braking.
Not really possible for H+T downchanges, but will give you full boost instantly if neccessary.
H+T or a double de clutch and blip will help the gearbox and syncro rings to last longer , will stop graunchy changes and , on a race track , make the car more stable and stop extra loading of the front wheels inducing a lock up.

That's interesting, I'll be playing in the golf on the way to the shops later!

My little clio 197 is swift but if you allow the revs to drop away picks back up really slowly. I taught myself to H&T to try and counter that. I do need to drive like a **** to benefit from it and with my size 11 feet only really manage it when driving in tight slipper type shoes (Merrel barefoots). Satisfying when you get it right.

Yes I learned from an ex's dad who was an evasive driving instructor. I had a cincuquento (sp? That word and dyslexia don't mix ) as my first car and the pedals were close together. I can do it in my celica too but don't on the roads as I'm far from smooth. I learned left foot braking too but haven't tried in years my first attempt in the fiat quickly taught me the seatbelts were a bit slack and didn't 'snatch'.

Just spotted this thread. I heel and toe even small downshifts these days - more mechanical sympathy for the car

Its a BMW so has a throttle paddle (hinged on the floor) rather than throttle pedal so the pedals are laid out nicely to be able to do it. Easier in trainers than in office work shoes!

Its even better at speed but its still nice in normal conditions (say roundabout, change from 3rd or 4th down to second)

Couldn't do it in my A3 at the throttle was too high and the brakes too low.

I've found all the manual BMWs I've driven to be capable of heel toeing (which for me is really ball-of-and-edge-of-footing, my heel's usually resting on the floor still)

OP,

Yes, did that many times with my 1967 VW Beetle.

I can recall there were faults somewhere with the timing, alternator and battery so in order not to stall at a stop I had to heel toe brake and accelerator. 🙂

Works well in my 2002 Golf T. Really well when for example going down two for a bigger roundabout.
Now that left foot braking ,that's bloody dangerous! My left foot only knows the clutch and has no sensitivity on the brake.

I can do it, it does get trickier with newer cars/more sensitive brakes. Octavia currently has very sensitive brakes, quite tricky/takes a bit of getting used to. Still, it has a tiny engine and I have to keep the turbo spinning somehow!

Learnt to do it really when I had an old Golf that didn't idle right when it was cold, I do find I have to know the car before I can do it well.

Oh and it's worth practising just blipping the downshifts to match the revs first, otherwise you're trying to learn two things at once.

The other good game is changing gear without the clutch.
Off the throttle and slips out of gear easy, match the revs and will go into next gear without the use of the clutch.
Hire cars are best to practise on.
Really good game in hire car is the full throttle clutchless shift from 1st to 2nd and 3rd to 4th.

The heel and toe equivalent on a motorbike is much harder I find, particularly swift smooth ones

Clutchless changes are a piece of cake though!

I left foot brake in my auto all the while, found it very easy to get to grips with. I'm not even sure if I can brake with my right foot anymore as I can't remember the last time I tried it!

I'd never heard of this safety feature mentioned on the previous page where if the brake and throttle are pressed simultaneously the power is cut. Just tried it in my 09 bmw and it does have this safety feature. Doesn't stop H-T'ing as the clutch is down but interesting to learn something new about the car nonetheless.

Clutchless changes are pointless unless you're left-foot braking and then there's no matching of revs. Up changes are normal with the clutch and most down changes too. The clutchless changes are only used when the car is being balanced engine against brakes and releasing the brakes would result in the car running wide, down changes are then with the accelerator on the floor and moving the gear lever as fast as possible. A slight lift might be needed with some engines but in most FWD rally cars I drove fourth to third could be done foot on the floor and ram the lever through. Muffing the change left the car freewheeling whilst sideways, not good, so it was important to be decisive and have a method that worked every time even if mechanically brutal.

Heel and toe is unnecessary and wastes fuel in normal driving in modern cars. Unless you double-declutch too it won't ease the load on the synchro cones so mechanical sympathy doesn't come in to it. Heel and toe in a modern car just serves to spin the engine until you drop the clutch. Once a habit it's hard to unlearn, I'm currently trying as my son is learning to drive and has to use the handbrake rather than heel and toe.