[Closed] Health-wise is this country utterly going/gone to the dogs?

Actually, I think Britain has a load to be proud about - having lived for the last 10 years in CH and Germany, I feel I have a good perspective on what is good and what isn't

Unfortunately many still see Britain as the one of the 60s where we were still a leader , or one of the leaders of the world. Sadly , we are a long way from this , and really struggling with what our place should be.

Schooling seems to be a paradox - progressive , non competitive ideas are at the forefront - but the irony is that the world is nasty, competitive, hostile and aggressive. Feel free to wrap you kids in cotton wool - and then just see how badly they cope with modern life. The parents role in life is to train their youngsters to survive in the world outside- not coset them.

I think the UK is a great place - I have chosen to move (partially) back. I don't believe it is going to the dogs, I don't believe it is a shithole. It has a really great innovative streak , which is second to none in the world. We also have an ability to problem solve and grasp squirrely concepts much better than , say , the Germans.

But we do have a rising underclass - who won't work/don't want to work. Add to that a raft of people who will not take responsibility for their actions and offspring. This is the major challenge going forwards (and the fact we have been bankrupted by the financial institutions - who continue to cream in money , and still be have like the people I have just mentioned).

Britain to start taking it seriously - education is much, much better in Ireland. It now costs 18k to go to University. You need to go to University to become a nurse, or a paramedic !! Good education, good parenting skills, good prospects and a new sense of pride would all be a start.

It's not just the UKs issue - Germany, Italy , Spain, France all have similar ( and in some cases) worse issue. But to steal Kennedy's line, " Don't ask Britain what it can do for you, ask what you can do for Britain". Please note that, all locals, and those choosing to move to Blighty

We also have an ability to problem solve and grasp squirrely concepts much better than , say , the Germans.

What does this bollocks actually mean?

But we do have a rising underclass - who won't work/don't want to work. Add to that a raft of people who will not take responsibility for their actions and offspring.

Problem is that increasing numbers of people are disillusioned, and see now real 'reward' for their efforts. Jobs don't have the same respect and value they once did, and workers are instantly replaceable and expendable. So morale and confidence are very low. Performance and standards drop, and the situation doesn't seem to be about to improve any time soon.

We all need to collectively take responsibility for our society, not simply demanding that others do it for us.

Unfortunately many still see Britain as the one of the 60s where we were still a leader , or one of the leaders of the world. Sadly , we are a long way from this , and really struggling with what our place should be.

Britain enjoyed wealth generated from the various colonies it exploited. That resource stream has dried up. Britain has failed to adapt and change sufficiently to maintain it's artificially created 'position'. In real terms, we're way way behind many nations, and our 'natural' position relative to what resources we actually have, is way lower than where we are now. So, that's where we're headed. To think otherwise is deluded and denying the inevitable reality.

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The underclass yesterday....

MrMoofo, I agree, UK has much going for it. One of the freeest countries in the world for a start.
We need to recognise we've a lot of positives here, pull together and work towards the better future we want for ourselves - what our grandparents did, basically.

But you're well OT - I'm the OP and my question was about health (obesity and drinking in particular), not the country in general...

As you were... 🙂

Fat people, heavy drinkers and smokers should all be put down and save society turning to ruin trying to keep their pathetic bodies going

Everyone blames the government ...

Junk food is cheap and fruit and vegetables are expensive. Nutrition is not taught in schools and school dinners are poor. Kids hardly have to do games/p.e anymore.

And you wonder why people blame the government?

Fat people, heavy drinkers and smokers should all be put down and save society turning to ruin trying to keep their pathetic bodies going

Are you an independent councillor in Cornwall?

Edit: won't even say it

kudos, why do schools have to teach people about nutrition. What about their parents role in all of this?
Junk food in not particularly cheap. Veg and fruit can be very cheap... They are just not convenient - and require preparation and time.

anyway - back to the topic ...

To the folks who criticise the "nanny state", and who feel that people should be totally free to smoke, drink, eat, and sit on their arses as they choose- should the NHS then be free to tell those people to sling their hook when they come along expecting free treatment for their type 2 diabetes, heart attacks and obesity? If people can't take responsibility for their own health them they need nannying and nagging.

Vicky - not sure what you are saying/claiming/asking

I struggle with long sentences. So apologies if this has been previously suggested; what are your thoughts towards the basic cultural issue encouraging the trend is that healthcare is free at the point of delivery.

How much value is placed on the healthcare professionals and providers when, to the tabloid picture people, the doctor is free? True, prescription drugs are sometimes more expensive on a 'script, however perceived value overall is that someone else pays for it.

Would you say, for example, that a self- responsible attitude towards one's own health, is directly proportional to the amount we pay for it?

The NHS manages to fail many people. I have to pay for my own healthcare, tests and pharmaceuticals.

Not all overweight people can blame over-eating. Don't judge.

Johndoh- my point is that whenever this debate comes up, there's always a few people who take the opinion that the government should stop interfering and telling people that they shouldn't eat and drink unhealthily, and should exercise more. What I'm saying is that given the state of the nation's health and consequent drain on the already struggling NHS, you can't blame the government for nagging us to be more healthy if we're going to continue to expect free medical treatment as a result of self-inflicted neglect of health.

I'm not judging all overweight or unhealthy people, I'm saying that where your ill health is self inflicted you need to man up and take responsibility for your own health.

I'm not entirely sure for how much longer the country can afford the NHS anyway.

With a national debt closing in on 900% of GDP, and government spend outstripping tax receipts, some public services are going to be 'tenderised'.

I'm not entirely sure for how much longer the country can afford the NHS anyway.

Private healthcare is much less cost effective. So if the UK can't afford a national health service paid for through taxation, then it can afford even less the alternative.

It's nothing to do with 'affording' and everything to do with priorities.

while I'm not a fan of telling people exactly what to do i really do feel we need to challenge some of the cultural attitudes we have in the UK towards exercise - far too many people seem to view physical fitness as a 'niche' thing and find it actively weird if you do a sport/hobby that involves effort. Even walking to work is seen as a bit odd if its more than 5 minutes or raining. I had hoped the Olympics would have some effect here (and to be fair it does seem to have pushed some people from 'interested' to 'participating' in sport) but most of my co-workers and a depressing number of my friends seem to see athletes as a different type of celebrity to be liked/disliked on the basis of their tv appearances.

Mr Synthpop,

I would have to agree - telling people to do something means they will react against it. Making people want to do something is a whole different thing. It's a real shame that the energy and hype of the Olympics has died so soon , and the legacy ... well, where is it?
For a short moment in Sept it seemed that the whole of the country was motivated ...
I assume that where you live in the country also has an effect - in sunny Brighton ( well, unsunny Brighton for he alst 8 weeks) , the front is always occupied by people running or cycling, no matter what the weather - is this something to do with more out-door lifestyles.

I guess the drive is a little different if you live in Wythenshawe

It's nothing to do with 'affording' and everything to do with priorities.

I guess so ernie. I'm glad I wont be the one to make the final decision as to which priority is greater than the other priorities.

Bottom line is if there is no money and earnings wont cover even a negative interest rate.... isn't that when repossession occurs?!

With a national debt closing in on 900% of GDP,

Not sure where you get that from. A quick google sugggests that UK national debt is just over 70% of GDP. If my debt was that low I'd be a very happy bunny indeed.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

Not even sure 900% is right when including Bank liabilities and property based debt.

Curiosity has been roused!?

Total UK debt is 500% of GDP in mid 2012

Still in curiosity mode, does the total UK debt include liabilities held by banks?

Probably haven't defined that very well, I think 'liabilities' is the right word

Food manufacturers need to be taken to task. I'm not one for Government intervention but this subject can not be ignored any longer.

Fat people, heavy drinkers and smokers should all be put down [s]and save society turning to ruin trying to keep their pathetic bodies going[/s] then we can look at how much we'll have to raise everybodies income tax to compensate for the enormous loss of revenue

FTFY. Well put though. Some people can resort to being self-righteous, sanctimonious, and generally a right pompous arse when commenting on subjects like this! Thank goodness you didn't fall into that trap

Well, the fact that it's cheaper to buy rubbish food says it all really! Sugar, carbs etc are addictive hence obesity.

Food manufacturers need to be told to stop making such rubbish food by being threatened with sanctions ie large fines. Of course this will never happen, just another example of self-serving politicians and their mates sitting on the Boards.

Edit: blimey, I'm getting as cynical as Binners. 😆

Food manufacturers need to be taken to task. I'm not one for Government intervention but this subject can not be ignored any longer.

CG... Don't hold your breath. Remember that when Dave and Chums were elected, they basically got the biggest names in the food industry to come in and right their policy for them. This represents the wonderful 'self-regulation' that they have been shouting about across all industries. Surely only the most cynical amongst us would refer to this as 'non-regulation'. I mean... with the supply of meat to supermarkets, for example, its been going really well

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/12/mcdonalds-pepsico-help-health-policy ]you really couldn't make it up[/url]

Hi piemonster, I may not have got all the numbers correct, however this does have projections too

[url= http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt ]uk public spending[/url]

Cheers

The NHS manages to fail many people.

Bullshit. A sweeping and insulting statement.

People fail themselves.

It is a massive issue, much of which is self I inflicted and I do agree with the points that some people think it strange that you go out running, walking, cycling etc despite the weather. But also agree that if the government try and twist people's arms they will kick back against it.

Education plays it's part...there isn't enough emphasis in sport at school (even more so now that competition appears to be a dirty word) but it needs to come from the home too. Parents need to be active and encout theirs kids to be as well. Even if it is walking to school etc. I amazes me how many people close to my office drive to work, despite the ridiculous parking levy in Nottingham. Some people are ten minutes walk and would rather pay thirty quid a month for a parking space than get off their bums and walk.

On the flip side, walking from Euston to Paddington this morning I was genuinely amazed by the number if people running and cycling to work although this doesn't seem that common elsewhere.

If more people exercised, they may actually enjoy it. I do and I was never that sporty at school (all I wanted to do was ride my bike, so I had no interest in rugby or tennis) but I genuinely love running, cycling, doing weights sessions etc and feel guilty when I miss it. Over the last year I've lost a fair bit of weight, realised that I'd been a lazy fat bar steward who'd let mysef go. I feel loads better about myself and am looking forward to my first half marathon on Sunday.

Fat people, heavy drinkers and smokers should all be put down and save society turning to ruin trying to keep their pathetic bodies going then we can look at how much we'll have to raise everybodies income tax to compensate for the enormous loss of revenue

And then they can also load in people who expose themselves to more danger than the norm - so rock climbers,horse riders, sailors, motorcyclists - and, of course, mountain bikers.
I'm afraid to say that even we fat people pay tax ( and quite a lot of it) , so I have just as much right to access medical care a skinny people, who may well be paying less, paying as much, or not at all.

Well, the fact that it's cheaper to buy rubbish food says it all really! Sugar, carbs etc are addictive hence obesity.

Food manufacturers need to be told to stop making such rubbish food by being threatened with sanctions ie large fines. Of course this will never happen, just another example of self-serving politicians and their mates sitting on the Boards.

CG - just because it is cheaper to buy , doesn't mean anyone is forcing you ( or anyone else) to eat it!
Food manufacturers sell what people will buy - it's about turning a profit. Ultimately they are not there to look after people's nutritional welfare. That is up to the individual. The food companies will give you healthy - but expect to pay a premium price for it. Now, if you want to go back to first principles and cook it yourself, then you can cook good food cheaply.
The whole fiasco of horsemeat has shown some of the "givens" in the food industry to be seriously flawed. And it should be prosecuted for fraud on a mass scale, for deceiving the customer.
But the food companies cannot be prosecuted for high fat / high sugar - that is down to you. Nobody forces anyone to eat any food !

The British sepnd the lowest per captia , in Europe, on food. Food here is not expensive, it is purely an excuse. The French spend the most BTW. Up to late 30% of disposable income.

McDonalds don't make you fat - it is eating too much of any food makes you fat. And who controls how much shit you shove in you mouth ...

You do

Is rubbish food really that cheap? If i go to the newsagents round the corner, drive there of course, a banana is cheaper than a Mars bar.

I can buy a whole chicken, a bag of carrots and broccoli and some potatoes for less than 4 MacDonald's meals. ( as an example of a straight swap between crap and good stuff for a family)

A loaf of bread, a lettuce and a few tins of tuna/a pack of ham/block of cheese doesn't cost much and makes a weeks worth of lunches. It's definitely cheaper per portion than chips/burger/pizza.

Totally agree with mofo...the shops just sell it, no one is forced to buy rubbish food.

Even healthy food is made convenient. Is it really that difficult to peel and cut up some carrots? Luckily my family like cooking, which has been passed on. Even at uni I ate reasonably well because I didn't want to live off pot noodles so learnt to cook. However, eating too much freshly cooked food is just as bad. The other half loves a bit of Super Size v's Super Skinny and there was a fat lass on there who ate really well, but just mahoosive portions of freshly cooked food.

Anyway, back on topic, blaming the supermarkets comes back to the point that people in this country cannot or will not take responsibility for their actions, be it food, drinking or controlling their feral children.

Bails I agree with you on that.

The other half loves programmes about fatties and I can never understand how they can afford to have three of four take aways a week. I'm partial to a curry, but they're a treat...we couldn't afford one every other night and there's only two of us.

I'd like to see a week's worth of healthy home-cooked food for a family of four priced against the cost of ready-made/junk food. I'll be very surprised if the healthy comes out more expensive.

A 500g bag of brown rice is £3.50 and lasts me months, eating rice 2-4 times a week
A banana is 18p, apples and oranges c 50p. Choc bars are 60-70p
Tinned pilchards are 50p/tin
Cucumber, 75p
Bag of spinach, 1.50 for a week's worth
6 free range eggs £1.50 (makes 3x 2-egg omlettes)

I think the 'junk' is cheap needs demonstrating as bunk. I think the real issue is people's lack of confidence in making healthy food (although how you can lack the self-belief to cut up a cucumber, tomato and rinse some spinach leaves is beyond me...)

But what I really don't get is the excuses and the resistance to being healthy. Why do people want to be ill?

Mindmap3: make your own curries! I was given the "500 curries" book (by Mridula something) for Xmas and it's genuinely brilliant, we have at least one a week now. Surprisingly quick and easy to make. Cheap too when you consider how long a bag of spices lasts.

And to the other posters suggesting free healthcare causes people to be lax with their diet, wouldn't that make Americans slimmer and healthier than most of the rest of the first world?!

The other half loves programmes about fatties and I can never understand how they can afford to have three of four take aways a week.

Indeed. Its not just fatties, and people from caaaaaaaarncel estates either, who we can all point at and laugh mockingly.

When channel 4 news were covering the horsemeat thing t'other week. There was a nice middle class family of 4 who were all eating Lasagna ready meals for tea. Which they did every night. Leaving aside the 'what the **** did you think you were eating' aspect, how much are 4 Findus ready meals? Surely it'd be cheaper, not to mention considerably nicer/healthier to just buy some fresh ingredients and cook a bloody lasagna. Its hardly difficult!

Well, the fact that it's cheaper to buy rubbish food says it all really!

At what point in history are we comparing the current population with health wise?

Given that death from preventable disease is falling,(heart disease, cancer, stroke, pulmonary etc) and life expectancy in 1900 was about 50 , and now it's about 76 I'd say 'most' people are getting healthier.

Feel free to carry on demonising the poor and overweight though...

There was a nice middle class family of 4 who were all eating Lasagna ready meals for tea.

They're not proper middle class. They're upper working class at best. A proper middle class family would be having organic tofu and hummus delivered by Occado.

Speaking of which...

Bullshit. A sweeping and insulting statement.

People fail themselves.

You need to join the real world.

no one is forced to buy rubbish food.

Interesting point that. You might as well say smokers aren't forced to buy fags, or junkies aren't forced to buy heroin.

Ok so it might not be that dramatic, but then again it might be depending on which neuroscientist you talk to. I've read articles saying that sugary fatty food is as addictive as fags, and yet everyone knows how hard it is to give those up.

The junk food industry is where the tobacco industry was 50 or so years ago - trying to get people hooked. They are paying scientists to concoct the MOST addictive more-ish stuff they can come up with, so that people buy more.

Basic fruit & veg, rice, pasta, tinned tomatoes/beans/etc, all dirt cheap

Hmm.. perhaps, but the really cheapo crap doesn't actually contain that stuff, so is cheaper still.

Fair point thx1138. They had a mahoosive fridge/freezer, not the far more compact, but infinitely superior design offered by Smeg.

But I suppose a diet of frightful ready meals necessitates such sacrifices. Can you imagine....

You need to join the real world.

In the 'real world', millions of people are successfully treated by the NHS each year. Countless lives are saved. Peoples' quality of life is improved. A tiny number of people are 'failed'. It's not a perfect world.

They had a mahoosive fridge/freezer, not the far more compact, but infinitely superior design offered by Smeg.

Smeg's are so [i]passé[/i], dahling.

It's all about walk-in pantries these days you know. One doesn't have one's appliances on show. How frightful.