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Yeah, perhaps the title doesn't quite work, but after yesterdays thread that I found upon getting home from a cold cycle around Thetford had been locked, I thought I'd update on the success of my heel/toe driving experience yesterday afternoon.
In short, it was a total fail.
In long, my feet are too small (size 7) or the pedals are too far apart for me to apply pressure to both throttle and brake.
Plus they are at totally different heights, meaning even if I could span both, I don't think I'd be able to successfully use them together. I think I'd need some kind of special ankle joint to make it work.
Oh well, shan't lose too much sleep over it.
Guess you're just not AWESOME enough 😉
I wouldn't worry those that claimed it's what they do or can do it mean it's when playing GT5.
I have just been flooring it in 1st most the time. Seems to be working.
It does take some practice & isn't easy in every car. My track car it is easy, but I've had nine years to get used to it, where as my daily driver is a bloody nightmare to get it right.
To answer a question i was asked in the other thread by julianwilson - it's pretty much down to having spent the last few years pretty much permanently in a car and the fact that the roads are full of asshats that think they're tommi makinen's more talented cousin when in reality they have the car control and skills of a deaf blind diplodocus.
My track car it is easy
Because the pedals are laid out for it. Road cars aren't designed to be H&T'd because they're road cars, not race cars and it's simply not necessary. Sadly this doesn't stop the rallycar wannabes... 🙄 (not you goldenwonder - thinking of some other silly people..)
To get serious, this is my first winter driving as only passed my test in march, ironically my first test was cancelled the previous December due to the bad weather, and it is certainly been an eye opener dealing with icy roads. Luckily where I live is relatively flat, so no big hills to contend with, but little country lanes have been interesting. Has definitely made me consider doing an IAM course.....or the very least a go on a skid pan!
Shame the other thread descended into a bunfight as usual.
Have a look at this then go and sit in the corner
Is this thread about real advanced driving skills or is it about activating microswitches with free foot to activate brake lights?
I promise not to post anymore cartoon characters on this thread.
On my Integra Type-R you had to be hard on the brakes to be able to get to the throttle (like you would do on I track I guess), but my old Elan (1990's one) was much easier.
Current car - not a chance (for me).
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but what possible requirement is there for the heel & toe driving technique on the public highways of the United Kingdom?
Would have been nice to have been able to do it, just to fiddle about with.
In my old Fiesta, it was fairly easy to do clutchless gear shifts, so long as you timed the shift right and matched the revs well enough on the way back down. It got to the point I could pretty much do most of my commute without touching the clutch.
Don't know why, but I find it impossible in the Ibiza. The gearbox just doesn't like it at all, so I don't bother. Seems a shame though as there was something satisfying about getting it right.
I used to spend quite a bit of time on the Parker's forum and there was an ex-Police driver/IAM bloke on there who was fairly blunt in his posting, but always spoke sense. He got me round to thinking about IAM training and the like, but it's something I have never followed-up on. Perhaps I'll give it a bash in 2011. How hard can it be?? 😉
Mate of mine did it shortly after uni and had hardly any sessions before passing his test - he is an annoyingly talented driver though.
I quite fancy a skid pan session too. Might book me and the other half on one at some point.
It makes your driving smoother - much better in the current weather conditions. Mechanically more sympathetic too as you're matching speeds rather than slipping/dumping the clutch on a change.
Oh, and it makes you a driving demi-god.
The Flying Ox - Member
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but what possible requirement is there for the heel & toe driving technique on the public highways of the United Kingdom?
One of the main advantages of it (as I understand it)is mechanical sympathy - reducing wear/strain on the gearbox/engine/clutch/drivetrain. So, I'd say it's not an unreasonable requirement.
But you can easily do that without H&T on the road unless you're trying to brake/accelerate right at the limit - absolutely no need for it on the road.
Is it any smoother than a properly executed sustained gear change? All my driving courses have had a huge emphasis on smoothness, but never suggested heel-and-toeing.
How about avoiding overlap between braking and changing gear or the 101 other safer less complex techniques for maintaining a balanced car with an eye on mechanical sympathy. Heel toe has no place on public roads.
The reason for it explained in:
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/driving-below-the-speed-limit-does-not-make-you-less-of-a-man/page/2#post-2123546
Modern road cars aren't really set up to make it easy to do - generally the brake pedal is too high relative to the accelerator. However I can do it in my Pug 406 with my size 7 feet.
To those who say there's no need, when you're engine braking down a hill and want to change down a gear to increase the engine braking, how do you do that without your car accelerating?
How about avoiding overlap between braking and changing gear
So how do you change down gear whilst slowing the car down?
Explain to me why you would need or even want to do it on a public road. Then explain why you are dicking around with the pedals and putting peoples lives at risk.
clubber - Member
But you can easily do that without H&T on the road unless you're trying to brake/accelerate right at the limit - absolutely no need for it on the road.
Good point.
Currently, I tend to down shift on the approach to a junction and match the revs as I do so, before braking as I get closer. 90% of the time it goes pretty seamlessly.
Sometimes I find as I'm approaching a junction/roundabout/whatever I want to downshift, but have left it a bit late to find space to downshift and fit in the braking without hammering the brakes on at the last second. Probably better observation required. In these situations I tend to leave out the downshifting, brake an appropriate amount and then select the correct gear for the speed I have braked to.
I figured that learning to heel-toe would perhaps make the whole thing a bit more controlled & sometimes less 'rushed' when i get my timing/observation wrong.
Plus, I like to try new things with driving and so if it was possible in my car it's something I'd like to learn.
Is it primarily a 'racing' technique, then or an 'advanced driving' technique??
EDIT - SBZ > I guess my description above as to how I currently do it is 'avoiding brake/gear overlap'??
Read the linked post, SBZ (or even what I've just written).
Heel toe has no place on public roads.
Does that mean you're unable to do it properly?
Surrounded By Zulus - Member
Explain to me why you would need or even want to do it on a public road. Then explain why you are dicking around with the pedals and putting peoples lives at risk.
Practice? Learning something new? Challenging yourself?
I am not sure how it would be putting peoples lives at risk. I would only ever practice it where the conditions were suitable and there were no other cars/people around. It's not like I'd hoon up to Hangar Lane Gyratory in rush hour and suddenly decide to try out some heel-to action for the first time.
In the sort of 'practice' conditions I envisage doing it in, I think the only risk would be getting it wrong and knackering your own car (unlikely).
Anyway - end of the day for me. Christmas drink with colleagues and then home.
stumpy - I thought we'd established it wasn't possible in your car (that was after all why it came up in the first place!) Anyway, it's really not something that's worth bothering with for your example - AFAIK the current advice is to ignore the gears until you need to change down because the revs have dropped too much, then just make one gearchange for which there should be no need to lift engine revs to make it smooth. You brake using the brakes, not the gears when coming into a corner/junction (unless you're on a track).
aracer - that post just shows me that you do not have a clue how to drive in snow.
stumpy01 - if you want to learn something new and challenge yourself - how about learning to drive well in a manner that is suitable for use on the public roads.
Rich_s - I can teach you to do it if you want me to. Will cost you a fair bit though.
Heel toe shifting does have a place on the road, if done correctly it facilitates faster and smoother downshifts, reducing the time the car spends coasting, and reducing the likelihood of locked wheels, especially in the current conditions. It also helps to reduce wear on the driveline as you are matching the speeds of the input and output shafts in the gearbox before releasing the clutch, meaning no sudden jump in revs, exactly the same as blipping the throttle while changing down for an overtake to avoid driveline shunt.
Some people will never agree that you can improove standards of your driving by stepping outside of the way they were taught to drive.
Driving is a simple thing complicated by idiots.
But you can easily do that without H&T on the road unless you're trying to brake/accelerate right at the limit - absolutely no need for it on the road.
its literally NOTHING to do with being quick.
its to be smooth.
it just so happens, smooth helps with quick.
Its not required, otherwise it would be taught, but it is USEFUL.
and learning to do it correctly under controlled conditions, in a sensible manner. (eg: at cautious speeds, on empty roads, not hooning it into traffic) means you can then use it as an option.
are you telling us, you have NEVER come over the crest of a hill having been cruising in 5th, and found it steeper than you would rather it have been?
the obvious solution is just to keep you foot planted firmly on the brake to maintain the correct speed, but your increasing wear on the car, putting unnessecery heat in the brakes, which can be quite dangerous, and wont have the same control over the descent. Also, if you have to then STOP, you have to stop in 5th (essentially coast down the last 30mph).
OR you could go from 5th, with low revs, to 3rd, with high revs, and then take your foot clean off the brake for the descent and let the engine do all the work
its literally NOTHING to do with being quick.
its to be smooth.
it just so happens, smooth helps with quick.
SBZ - could you teach me how to left foot brake?
Genuine question to H&T "opposition":
to change down, do you:
a) just chuck it in
b) slip the clutch to try and prevent the jolt, or
c) use your right foot to bring the engine to match the wheels?
if c: its only one step further from that.
are you telling us, you have NEVER come over the crest of a hill having been cruising in 5th, and found it steeper than you would rather it have been?
Never.
A good alternative to this would be to look out the front windscreen, read what is happening in the distance and PLAN AHEAD.
Rich_s - probably not. My skills are at teaching advanced driving not working miracles.
aracer - that post just shows me that you do not have a clue how to drive in snow.
OK, so given I seem to manage pretty well (and a vast amount better than 99% of the people on the road from what I can see), please explain what I've got wrong.
aracer - attitude mate, attitude.
Ah, the usual catch all when you can't actually find anything to fault.
So what exactly do you think my desire to keep the speed down by engine braking, which is better at keeping traction than using the brakes, says about my attitude?
You could just retract gracefully now if you want...
Ah, the usual catch all when you can't actually find anything to fault.
OK, so given I seem to manage pretty well (and a vast amount better than 99% of the people on the road from what I can see), please explain what I've got wrong.
As I said - attitude. Cant be told that you are wrong and think you're better than almost everyone else.
Attitude is the single most important aspect of being a good driver, by a long long long way.
Seems you can't read either - I was after an explanation of what I'd got wrong. Are you denying me the evidence of my own eyes of lots of people wheelspinning and sliding all over the place when I'm not?
I'll note that you seem to have concluded I had something wrong even before I made that post though - I'm still waiting for the explanation.
If attitude really is so important, then I really don't want to be on the road anywhere near you, given the attitude you always display on here.
I used to H+T when I had a car (EP3) and wanted to drive like a rally demon 🙄
It really has no use on public roads, if you feel it does, then you are probably going too fast for the conditions. Yes its tempting in a fast car, but you know you're in the wrong. I'm not saying that I never play on my m/bike, but I know knee downs are fun, and not required + am more likely to have an accident whilst doing so.
H+T useful on track and private toll roads ('Ring), but not on public road. It does produce a much smoother, less likely to lock the wheels, change down of the gears. I would use the outside edge of my foot if the pedals were stretched 😀
Never.
im struggling to swallow that, but not my place to disagree.
you could live in kent :s
Might add to the "what amazes you" thread:
"no matter how many times something really simple is explained, how people still manage to just not get it"
Somethings that are used by QUICK drivers (racers) are still useful for SLOW drivers (Diesel estates)
[i]Seems you can't read either - I was after an explanation of what I'd got wrong. Are you denying me the evidence of my own eyes of lots of people wheelspinning and sliding all over the place when I'm not?[/i]
No idea, but alarm bells always sound in my head when someone says they're appear better than 99% of other drivers.
Luckily I'm a crap driver so never face such issues 🙂
LOL at all the "but it's better for my gearbox and clutch" nonsense.
You honestly think over the course of your ownership of your car, you're going to make that much of a difference? In that case, I have a bridge for sale that you may be interested in.
Seriously, learn it on a track and transfer that to the roads when you can do it and only then. Don't be a fanny and start h&t-ing it to the shops in the snow and ice.
To those who say there's no need, when you're engine braking down a hill and want to change down a gear to increase the engine braking, how do you do that without your car accelerating?
Erm, I'd probably suggest application of the brake, changing down, then releasing the brake. Safer than dicking around anywhere near the accelerator on such a descent.
Another thought of another point RE: "no place for it on the public highway"
how many "no place for it on the public highway"ers drive manual transmissions?
an automatic is perfectly capable in every situation, and removes the added complication and confusion of a THIRD pedal, let alone a gear stick.
why bother driving a manual at all?
Hehe. "Automatic"
For the sake of continuity of your own arguement, I take it you're at this very moment typing out how engine braking down a hill with an automatic gearbox works.
OK , Just for second think about the drivers who own older cars with worn out syncromesh rings.
Lots of gearboxs are 'tired' or 'slow' and quick downshifts 'beat the syncro' .
If you can H + T , and DD its possible to drive quickly , and smoothly by using this technique.
Not everyone in the world has the means to drive around in nice , new modern cars .
I dont know , but is not the DSG or double clutch system supposed to replicate or render pointless H + T shifting?
Give me strength.