[Closed] Have we done this yet? Warning: Religious content

Pretty sensible I'd have said. Evolution and Big Bang do fit pretty well with with what is in the bible depending how you interpret it. Actually "God" would fill in the blanks of our understanding quite well (pre big bang etc), which was always the case through history. The church always used to be made up of the most learned people and was the forefront of understanding. It's only recently, as the science has gotten a bit hard, that they seem to have drawn a line and said "that's it". Maybe if they focussed on the being nice to each other bit and let the scientists do the hard sums we might get somewhere.

As a catholic myself I can honestly say I admire his conviction in trying to drag the religion, kicking and screaming, into the 18th century. If he can continue the onward march of progress to embrace the last couple of centuries too, then I promise I'll stop regarding Father Ted as a documentary, and I might even go to church

Old news.
The big bang theory originated with a Catholic priest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

Good. He's doing [i]really[/i] well.

Elderly man in silly dress claims evolution is true and then contradicts himself by saying god did it.

TBF, nothing he is saying is actually new to the Church. None of the Orthodox, Catholic, nor mainstream Protestant communities think any differently.

Maybe if they focussed on the being nice to each other bit and let the scientists do the hard sums we might get somewhere.

That's what they do nowadays generally.

Elderly man in silly dress claims evolution is true and then contradicts himself by saying god did it.

Meanwhile elderly man on STW completely fails to understand the theory of evolution. Evolution describes how diverse species can evolve from a single original life form, but it says nothing about how that original life form came to be.

Don't patronise me sonny.

Still doesn't mean "god did it". Hence - it must have evolved.

Don't know why you still need to be told this.

Your attempts to defend the ridiculous used to be amusing, now you're just being a bore.

No offense.

but it says nothing about how that original life form came to be.

Wrong. It's even been re-created under lab conditions. Keep up.

Don't patronise me sonny.

I'm not patronising you, I'm correcting you 🙂 I'm not saying God did anything, or even that he exists, but it is perfectly possible that He did set evolution (or even simply the universe) in motion then let it take its course.

It's even been re-created under lab conditions.

Oh really? I suspect once again you're misinformed but if you can please find me a link that'd be great.

No I'm not going to provide you with a link. Do your own homework.

Lol

You're referring to the synthesis of amino acids under lab conditions based on hyopthesised primordial soup and a lightening strike, perhaps?

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Singletrackworld, the font of ALL knowledge 😆

The biggest surprise to me about religion is how it has conned so many people out of so much money over the centuries with various stories

That's what they do nowadays generally.

Sometimes Molly I wonder of you have ever read the Bible or seen how they treat non believers [ or even just women]and sinners currently.

PS nice treatment of Whoppit in your first reply

Overall it amazes how religion can slowly over time start to denounce and reject its own book and yet still maintain its true.
It shows why facts wint knock their faith as they can happily maintain contradictory views - to be fair we all can to some degree not just the religious.

I always wonder if anybody at the rank of bishop or above actually believes in God and the afterlife. Or if they're all on the side of Father Dougall:

"Well, you know the way God made us all, right? And he's looking down at us from heaven and everything?
And then his son came down and saved everyone and all that?
And when we die we're all going to go to heaven?
Well, that's the bit I have trouble with."

Sometimes Molly I wonder of you have ever read the Bible or seen how they treat non believers [ or even just women]and sinners currently

Who's 'they'? It's not as if Christians are one homogeneous group, is it?

Overall it amazes how religion can slowly over time start to denounce and reject its own book and yet still maintain its true.

It's a little more complex than that. Which you'd know if you spoke to some religious people and took the time to listen to their point of view.

It's just the way of Christianity through the ages; adopt the prevailing theories/customs of a time/place so as to integrate (and hopefully convert the heathens).

Christmas and Easter are just 2 examples of existing festivals which were adopted by Christianity in this fashion.

Though the bible itself has some great wisdom, the centuries of exploitation by the church for material and political gain, especially whilst colonizing the new world, show huge levels of hipocrisy.

I always wonder if anybody at the rank of bishop or above actually believes in God and the afterlife

No one actually believes in that nonsense. If they did then they wouldn't cry at funerals.

It's impressively insightful. How does he know all of that?

Do your own homework.

As I'm sure you've asserted yourself on numerous occasions on religion threads, burden of proof lies with those making the claim.

Jive FFS man child abuse - is it only when the evidence exists that you dont mention it ?
Look who has met him ...just saying like
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It's just the way of Christianity through the ages; adopt the prevailing theories/customs of a time/place so as to integrate (and hopefully convert the heathens).

Well, no, it's the way of Christianity (and religion generally) to scream "no, you're all wrong, god did it" in a big loud voice until proof is so irrefutable that they look like idiots and have to retcon something convenient to fit.

Though the bible itself has some great wisdom

Well, no, it's the way of Christianity (and religion generally) to scream "no, you're all wrong, god did it" in a big loud voice until proof is so irrefutable that they look like idiots and have to retcon something convenient to fit.

With respect, only some of them do that. The ones that quietly live and let live, you tend not to hear about them.

I bet I could find more 'wisdom' in a Jeffrey Archer novel.

I bet you couldn't.

I don`t understand how anyone with a brain could follow a religion

Junky, get a grip of yourself dude, next you'll be saying it's all part of the satanic illuminati control system. 🙄

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Of course, it might have more credence if Jimmy Savile was a high ranking Freemason. 😉

The ones that quietly live and let live, you tend not to hear about them.

Such as?

I'm talking about the organisations, not the individuals. Plenty of people live and let live, but "we're right and you're wrong" is the cornerstone of most religions I can think of offhand, is it not? That's ostensibly what 'faith' means; believe what we tell you and stop asking uncomfortable questions.

However they do, so bear in mind that just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's rubbish. Not aimed at you directly, Edric!

Cougar - I can't remember the last time I heard a prominent Anglican leader telling me I'm wrong..?

So... Is the choirboys lament still ok? Or is that now verboten too?

I don`t understand how anyone with a brain could follow a religion

Look who has met him

That's incredibly tenuous. I'm having jacket spuds for tea, that doesn't make me a sodding potato.

I really don't see any point in beating up on people who are managing to avoid dogma and silliness.

This Pope has recently:

- recognised that gay people aren't utterly dreadful; and
- said that young earth creationists are completely wrong.

So far as all that goes, he's getting into line with normal people. I'm happy to applaud that, while still feeling that in many aspects of its doctrine and practice the church he leads has a long way to go if it wants to catch up with the humanity and decency of our broader culture.

Yeah, sorry, thread drift. I can't argue with any of that, BigDummy. Baby steps, but in the right direction.

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in any more religious debates, because someone always trots out the "imaginary friend" thing and it becomes impossible to discuss. But:
1. I agree with everything molgrips has said in this thread.
2. the Greek Orthodox Church's teachings were already compatible with evolution, astrophysics, Big Bang theory, etc.
3. Good scientists are broad-minded - a lack of proof that God exists isn't the same as proof that he does not exist.

3. Good scientists are broad-minded - a lack of proof that [strike]God[/Strike] unicorns exists isn't the same as proof that he does not exist.

Christianity is such a broad spectrum that you can't possibly lump all Christian beliefs in together. Even [url= http://faithdebates.org.uk/blog/clergy-survey-parish-system-church-of-england/ ]17% of UK CofE priests don't believe in a personal god[/url].

Evolution and the big bang theory have been accepted by many modern Christian denominations.

The guy who first came up with the big bang theory was a Catholic and worried that it countered official teaching, so he went to see the Pope of the time who offered to make it official doctrine so that all Catholics had to accept it.

a lack of proof that God exists isn't the same as proof that he does not exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel l's_teapot

Most scientists would never claim that god doesn't exist, as that's not how science works. It's not possible to prove a negative in this manner.

3. Good scientists are broad-minded - a lack of proof that God exists isn't the same as proof that he does not exist.

Absolutely true, but in the absence of any evidence that god exists I'm going to carry on behaving as if he doesn't.

in the absence of any evidence that god exists I'm going to carry on behaving as if he doesn't.

Fine, but this is not a thread about you 🙂

It's all about me.

Nothing to see here:

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3. Good scientists are broad-minded - a lack of proof that God exists isn't the same as proof that he does not exist.

We could devise an experiment to test claimed aspects of a god's existence.

Creation power claims were previously made for various gods but, as the Pope acknowledges, god is shown to be unnecessary for the processes of creation and evolution.

Many religions claim that their god answers prayers and the effectiveness of these can be, [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer ]and have been[/url], tested.

I can't remember the last time I heard a prominent Anglican leader telling me I'm wrong

Most excellent news Molly , most excellent

a lack of proof that God exists isn't the same as proof that he does not exist.

By all means keep your faith but that is all you have faith not evidence and not proof

Oh and the atheist molly to argue your corner....in that respect I do agree that god does indeed work in mysterious ways

I can't remember the last time I heard a prominent Anglican leader telling me I'm wrong

The [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10828762/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-Justin-Welby-says-gay-marriage-is-great.html ]current Arch Bish thinks gay marriage is wrong[/url], which means he disagrees with me.

Make up anythign - just make sure it is neither true nor testable and you can say that
Spaghetti monsters, unicorns, invisible flying fish, etc . All of them you would consider ludicrous but one.

There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.

There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.

Pastaphobe!

And, I think you're confusing Santa Claus and God.

JHJ, just trying to figure out what point you're trying to make with those photos. The middle one in particular; a lightning strike, presumably on the highest point of the Vatican during a storm, with some random photo of his Popeness superimposed on top.
The bottom one; doves of peace released: local avian hooligans getting stuck into the poncy new interlopers, bit like street kids having a go at the local public school nobs.
Again, not seeing a point, here.

There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.

So your "huge difference" boils down to number of followers? I can absolutely assure you that TSM brings happiness to plenty. What else have you got?

belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions

Can we start a tea-based religion? I bet that a nice cup of tea brings happiness to more people than religion. It even comes with its own inter-sect fighting, about milk-addition order.

JHJ, just trying to figure out what point you're trying to make with those photos.

I'm sorry, I assumed you knew the lightning strike on St Peter's basilica occurred when Pope Benedict resigned, which many say is in relation to Child Abuse allegations, hence why he can't leave the confines of the Vatican...

Or about La Resurrezione, the eery sculpture depicting Jesus rising from a nuclear crater in the Vatican.

Of course, the attack on the doves could be pure coincidence, as could the pope publicly admitting that at least 2% of the clergy are paedophiles...

but it is perfectly possible that He did set evolution (or even simply the universe) in motion then let it take its course.

There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.

Nobody has beheaded anyone in the name of the SM AFAIK. Nobody has even threatened anyone with eternal torture for not believing in the SM. Which is probably where pastafraian missionaries are going wrong.

There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.

Not in terms of how true or testable it is
None of them can be proven to be false which was my point

The amount of people who believe it , no matter how sincerely, a truth does not make.

I understand the difference between proof and faith, and I have faith, not proof. But a lot of people go on about there not being scientific proof of the existence of God, but I don't need proof to have faith. I'm not asking anyone to join me in my beliefs, but it would nice not to have people insinuate that I'm thick or deluded 🙂

I have been worshipping at the shrine of the SM this very evening with an offering of a nice tomato sauce and lashings of parmesan. No altar wine in the house sadly.

I understand the difference between proof and faith, and I have faith, not proof. But a lot of people go on about there not being scientific proof of the existence of God, but I don't need proof to have faith. I'm not asking anyone to join me in my beliefs, but it would nice not to have people insinuate that I'm thick or deluded

I've found that it's difficult to discuss religion without making people feel like I'm implying that they're thick or deluded. This is why I try to avoid discussing it with my (Christian) wife.

I suspect that a few on here will assume that anyone religious is thick and/or deluded, but (I hope) the majority of us don't.

it would nice not to have people insinuate that I'm thick or deluded

It illogical and unwise hence folk mock your choice as thick and deluded

FWIW the diagnostic manual for mental illness has to say culturally non accepted beliefs or else religious beliefs would tick all the criteria for mental illness

That is how unwise the choice is.
Of course you find it offensive but I dont find being told I am a sinner who will spend an eternity in hell for disagreeing with you all that nice.

I suspect that a few on here will assume that anyone religious is thick and/or deluded, but (I hope) the majority of us don't.

I dont find being told I am a sinner who will spend an eternity in hell for disagreeing with you all that nice.

Bless you

It illogical and unwise hence folk mock your choice as thick and deluded

Some folk mock. Not all.

Thankfully, there's a new wave of atheists who are rather less confrontational than the Dawkins and Hitchens devotees.

For the life of me I cannot understand how an otherwise wise and sentient human being can believe

I wonder if there's a genetic component? I remember thinking it was all nonsense back in primary school, and my eldest has reached the same conclusion. I just can't see a way to reconcile a belief in the supernatural with what I see and experience.

But, I know lots of very intelligent Christians, including at least one with a physics Phd.

Dont flatter molly he is neither intelligent nor a PhD 😉

Indeed not all but some [ and clearly I am guilty of the charge]will mock

At school - a c of E school i remember thinking if god made me who made god. It does not answer the ultimate question and at least one of us came from nothing and we know we are here and have an explantion.

I also remember being very scared to say I did not believe in god [ aged 9 ish ???] as i expected harm to befall me.

I've never told anyone they will spend an eternity in hell for anything, and that is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church, either. The church actually defines hell simply as "absence from the love of God".
I have a PhD in biochemistry and yet I have faith - strange, eh?

Interestingly, I wouldn't have thought that an atheist would be bothered about hell or being threatened with going there. Presumably hell is as much a "supernatural" concept as heaven, or God to an atheist?

Interestingly, I wouldn't have thought that an atheist would be bothered about hell or being threatened with going there. Presumably hell is as much a "supernatural" concept as heaven, or God to an atheist?

Ditto for someone being worried about being called an idiot, if they felt they were going to spend eternity in God's presence?

I never said i was bothered i said it was offensive the fact it wont happen is neither here nor there.

As for what you have done I would hope you have left the judging to god
but it is pretty clear in its message to me

31 x“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the 3holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 yAll the nations will be gathered before Him, and zHe will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the asheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, binherit the kingdom cprepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 dfor I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; eI was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was fnaked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; gI was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, hinasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, i‘Depart from Me, you cursed, jinto the everlasting fire prepared for kthe devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer 4Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, linasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And mthese will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I wouldn't have thought that an atheist would be bothered about hell or being threatened with going there.

For someone who is actually an atheist, you're right. As threats go (I saw one on FB only today, saying that gay people were sinners and going to hell) it's a pretty weak one. Where it has power is with people who are easily influenced like, say, children.

Yeah the "new" pope

Hitchens said it best.

Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse."

Especially true of the Catholic church

On the subject of faith, how do you argue a logical point with someone who believes that logic doesn't apply on this one point? Cognative dissonance eh, gotta love it.

I've mentioned this before, but I used to work with a polymath, one of the most intelligent people I've ever met (and I have a peer group full of geeks). He was the sort of guy who'd decide to teach himself Russian for fun. He was Christian.

I had a lengthy chat with him about how he rationalises it, and he says that he puts his faith in a 'box' separate from everything else. I'm explaining this poorly, but it made some sort of sense at the time.

he says that he puts his faith in a 'box' separate from everything else

That seems like a tactic for avoiding cognitive dissonance.

Maybe it is. Seemed to work.

Proof again that the one thing tolerated by STW is rudeness towards those who have faith. Highlight that someone is ignorant of the facts on how taxation works....down comes the hammer. Claim that having a brain and believing in religion are incompatible, no problem. The mods even join in.

At least be honest that religion is the one thing were abuse and rudeness is sanctioned on here. It does seem to keep Woppit and others regularly amused and entertained. So silver lining.....

Why the hang up about hell? Hell is merely perpetual separation from God (as Vicky points out above). Perhaps the question should be, how can you have a brain and get concerned about being separated from something that you know doesn't exist. That really is stupid.

Look it's dead easy, just prove the god theory for the exisitence of all things is true and I'm instantly a believer, if not just say I've no idea and I'm equally happy, anything else is intellectually dishonest isn't it? We can't just believe things because they're written down in an old book without any shred of empirical evidence to back them up. Science at least admits when it's wrong it's taken the pope 500 years to admit gay people might actually be human, under massive duress and despite the fact the clergy are fabulous, well thanks a bunch.

Proof again that the one thing tolerated by STW etc

Oh, get over yourself.

The one thing tolerated by STW is open debate and freedom of speech. Two, the two things tolerated by STW are...

I can guarantee you that we look into every post which gets reported. Care to guess how many have been reported for this thread? Clue - we've responded to all of them.

I've no idea what the 'taxation' comment refers to, but I'm happy to check if you can enlighten me.

If you can show me where the abuse you refer to is, I'll be more than happy to investigate, as I have no doubt will the rest of the moderation team.

I don't think any atheists are concerned about hell - it's by definition an empty threat in an atheist context - though we probably object to being threatened and coerced.

the one thing tolerated by STW is rudeness towards those who have faith

The religion threads on here have been, by and large, pretty affable. Certainly no worse than any other.

Why the hang up about hell? Hell is merely perpetual separation from God (as Vicky points out above). Perhaps the question should be, how can you have a brain and get concerned about being separated from something that you know doesn't exist. That really is stupid.

As stated above, grown-up atheists aren't bothered by hell at all. But, we are bothered that those who are more vulnerable are threatened by it.

Why the hang up about hell?

You wouldn't have IS without this belief system.

Oh, get over yourself.

QED

grown up atheists aren't bothered by hell at all

Easily falsified above, unless you are saying that others aren't grown up. But that would be rude wouldn't it?

You wouldn't have IS without this belief system.

And people mentioned ....oh forget it....

Proof again that the one thing tolerated by STW is rudeness towards those who have faith

FWIW you can still be very rude about AS and wendy ball and lots of other things as well. you can even be rude about whoppit and others being "amused"

Claim that having a brain and believing in religion are incompatible, no problem

Hell is merely perpetual separation from God

Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The context was given as well. Would you like some more ? I can use the OT if you prefer.
You cannot just pretend this is not in the bible.