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patriotpro - MemberEasy to turn a blind eye to issues when one has no experience of certain aspects of society. This is true of many people and a few on this forum and indeed on this thread but especially on this subject. Just look at some of the first world problem threads as evidence that some know very little about anything outside their life bubble so form their opinions based upon their utopian bullshit. Catch my drift?
Jesus man, have the courage of your convictions.
If you believe something say it.
From the 'Which shop would you choose?' thread I've a pretty good idea of your ideology.
bwaarp - but all those places have family structures that are matriarchal don't they... really?
If we're really honest about it
@ bwaarp
You're describing popular stereotypes. Not everyone in those nations are Muslim - ever heard of the Coptic Church for example? Do misogynistic people really have to all be Muslims? There are a few misogynists in the good old Anglican Church too you know.
People in Indonesia might justifiably call us Britons "Warmongers" for example...
bwaarp - but all those places have family structures that are matriarchal don't they... really?If we're really honest about it
Matriarchal in the way that pre-female emancipation was matriarchal.
If you think women have any real power in those countries you are having a laugh.
You're describing popular stereotypes. Not everyone in those nations are Muslim - ever heard of the Coptic Church for example? Do misogynistic people really have to all be Muslims? There are a few misogynists in the good old Anglican Church too you know.
I'm talking about at an institutional level, which culture and religion influences. I'm not talking about individuals.
Ireland: Doesn't like abortion therefore Misogynistic
Italy: See above
Russia: A half century of communism didn't shatter those glass ceilings, therefore misogynists all.
The Vatican: Don't get me started.
Switzerland: Women couldn't vote until 1972...
Ireland: Doesn't like abortion therefore Misogynistic
Italy: See above
Russia: A half century of communism didn't shatter those glass ceilings, therefore misogynists all.
The Vatican: Don't get me started.
Switzerland: Women couldn't vote until 1972...
On a far lower scale but yes they are
and that's why I don't really care for any of those countries you listed as well.
Italy is a failed corrupt state, Russia is run by gangsters, the Vatican ****s kids and Switzerland...well..they're more or less reformed now.
I'm talking about at an institutional level, which culture and religion influences. I'm not talking about individuals.
No you aren't, you named specific countries where Islam may or may not predominate without any caveats. You great big hairy racist.
Bwaarp..
If you think women have any real power in those countries you are having a laugh.
that may be so and I don't think that was my point really..
but no women had real power in this country only a few decades ago either.. our society was as misogynistic as any other, if not more so, perhaps a little more politely perhaps.. perhaps not
you are scaremongering using badly thought out stereotypes that suit your prejudices.. drunk on propaganda and too much TV news I reckon
No you aren't, you named specific countries where Islam may or may not predominate without any caveats. You great big hairy racist.
No, you are to blind to see that religion is a threat liberalism.
There's no old school liberals left who are actually willing to defend our political values. This depresses me.
Islam on the whole is the enemy of western liberalism
well we always have to have some enemy that will bring us to our knees and now we have defeated communism. 1984 is a good read FWIW
have the courage of your convictions.
THIS
Re misogynism lets not forget women were killing themselves for the vote only 100 years ago here.
Equal pay act only here 50 years [ and still a disparity]
Homosexuality was a crime 45 years ago
We may be ahead but not by that much. we win the argument on personal freedom by being tolerant and beating the arguments not by literally beating the arguers.
and everything yunki says
THIS
Re misogynism lets not forget women were killing themselves for the vote only 100 years ago here.
Equal pay act only here 50 years [ and still a disparity]
Homosexuality was a crime 45 years agoWe may be ahead but not by that much. we win the argument on personal freedom by being tolerant and beating the arguments not by literally beating the arguers.
and everything yunki says
Yes, but all of this was set in motion by the enlightenment thinkers many many many years ago. You need an ingrained culture to enact slow change, this stuff doesn't happen over night.
Yes we can all learn from each other and this is to be celebrated. Why don't you start by sharing with us what you have learned form the many muslims living near you?
I have no Muslims living near me, but i do work in their homes and buisnesses in another town i work in,
Theyre freindly and welcoming,
Offer free food and a drink,to workmen,
Like to barter down prices,
Their children are very polite and freindly,even the teenagers,
some dont understrand humour,
the females are very sexy looking,
the man is in charge of finances, the lady is in charge of the cooking,the lady isnt allowed to flirt with a man, if her husband is nearby,
they all have huge tv,s and flashy cars along with high walls and railings,
they dont seem to have a chip on their shoulder about other people getting more than them.
No, you are to blind to see that religion is a threat liberalism.
You may have a point there...I certainly don't subscribe to any religion. But I've met some great people who happen to have faith and to simply rant at them that they're completely wrong would smack of bad manners. I've also met some atheists who are idiots too.
A great deal of the issues you've pointed out are cultural, not religious...and unless you've ignored the news of the last thirty years, you'd understand why some in the Middle East might resent us a teeny bit, especially when you look at the unemployment stats in Saudi for example.
I've met some great people who happen to have faith and to simply rant at them that they're completely wrong would smack of bad manners.
I don't care for good manners.
I do agree with your latter point to an extent though.
There's no old school liberals left who are actually willing to defend our political values. This depresses me.
Eh? Please enlighten me. My political views are very strong, my values don't necessarily depend on a WASP to validate them.
Would you like me to swap newspaper headlines with you? I know a few links to the Daily Mail.
They may not represent the actual views of the majority of Britons though.
Would you like me to swap newspaper headlines with you? I know a few links to the Daily Mail.They may not represent the actual views of the majority of Britons though.
The Daily Mail line is akin to Godwins law.
I don't think we should be pretending to like cultures or political elements that are in direct confrontation with our own - we should not be tricking ourselves that these elements are benign and to be safely ignored. That is all. I don't care about the color of someones skin etc these obfuscate the real issues, all I care about is liberalism and where it's headed over the next century.
What I see are political and social enemies to liberalism be they abroad or within our own country. Ranging from anti-terrorism legislation, the rise of the right and it's social causes etc to religious and cultural opposition abroad. None, I repeat...NONE of these should be ignored. If we do it's at the peril of everything the west has achieved (whilst we've done a lot of bad stuff, it's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives).
So by the looks of it.. If I was a sexist, homophobe, all I'd have to do is convert to Islam and I'd have the apparent blessing of Junk, Yunk, pjm etc??
(and yeah,, I started a sentence with 'so')
If I was a sexist, homophobe, all I'd have to do is convert to Islam and I'd have the apparent blessing of Junk, Yunk, pjm etc??
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. My point was that not every muslim I've met is sexist/racist/homophobic.
What are you trying to achieve by reversing the argument?
Anybody else getting ads for Islamic marriage on this page?
http://islamicmarriage.com/?affiliateID=ADa_Im_en_gg_C-UK_Nikah
http://www.muslima.com/?ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=English+UK+Content+Image+Ads+Muslim+Centers&ovcrn=image+ad&ovtac=PPC&V3&gclid=CJSZq6nZk7UCFe7MtAodnWAAqg
I don't think we should be pretending to like cultures or political elements that are in direct confrontation with out own. That is all.
You know that is EXACTLY what they think as well... you are just like them.
I dont agree their is direct confrontation tbh.
What are you trying to achieve by reversing the argument?
A reaction I would assume as no one thinks that is what anyone is saying not even the poster
I'm not reversing anything.. I too support liberty and freedom.. I see Islam as I direct threat to that and I see you and your type nieve beyond belief.
You know that is EXACTLY what they think as well... you are just like them.
I dont agree their is direct confrontation tbh.
Except my ideology doesn't really make that so does it? This isn't facism vs communism where the two extremes are not polar opposites but a horseshoe. These are vastly different ideologies.... Maybe the west could somehow talk them out of their grievances with us, somehow I doubt this would be possible though even if we did stop bombing them for half a century.
I see what you're saying bwaarp.. and I'm gonna take it on board..
Can you recommend me any good old fashioned literature that I should get hold of on Liberalism..?
I see liberalism as the sensible choice because I don't want to ostracise someone that I could potentially learn from, or co-operate with, and I am quite able to celebrate difference (unless you're a fool elzorillo, fools make me grumpy).. but I've never thought about liberalism as a political value that I would have to defend..
But if you're right and the tide is changing, maybe I should arm myself with some knowledge from which to defend my liberal point of view
(EDIT: I would like to apologise at this point for taking another poster's views on board, hopefully this won't cause the STW servers to implode in a fractal destabilisation)
Wow this thread made it to 5 pages, mods must out somewhere
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. My point was that not every muslim I've met is sexist/racist/homophobic.
That's true, but certainly at least a few years ago, the extreme form of Saudi-exported Islam was growing very rapidly, including amongst Muslims in this country. I don't think this is a good thing.
Your type?
I see you as someone who has bought hook line and sinker the demonisation of muslims
It is a simple message for simple folk.
Except my ideology doesn't really make that so does it?
Eh I quoted you and said they were like you and your defence is your not like what you said you were like 😯
AWESOME
- ****stan: Misogynistic - been there, on bog for week after, enjoyable in a strange sort of way.
- Iran: Misogynistic - not been
- Iraq: Misogynistic - as above
- Lebanon: Misogynistic - been there, very loud shouty, heavy smokers, nice scran
- Egypt: Misogynistic - been there, Home of the gully gully man and bedouin bobs coffee shop
- Chechnya; Misogynistic - never been
- Jordan: Misogynistic - Fantastic place !
- Kuwait: Misogynistic - very hot, boring
- Oman: Misogynistic - slightly intimidating, expensive
- Saudi Arabia: Misogynistic - horrible, intimidating
- Malaysia: Misogynistic - never been
etc ad nauseum
TBH though I pretty much loathe any country that isn't a liberal democracy.
A
Aw come on! there more to life than liberal de-mock-racy surely, what about public flogging, dismemberment and beheading ?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bf1_1359625309
On the same sort of lines though this is in the US. Interesting conversation with an officer at the end.
Yunki... start off with John Locke, Thomas Jefferson etc etc...walk in the shoes of the giants and then trace the development of the enlightenment thinking throughout history.
cheers buddy.. that should keep me out of mischief for a bit 8)
Once you've done that you can start reading books that look at the problems democracy and liberalism face in the 21st century and then make up your own mind.
I respectfully disagree with Junkyard etc but this topic is so complex and nuanced that it will take pages for any of us including Junkyard etc) to defend our views...thousands of words.....this thread will descend into a slagging match long before then - with people labeling each other racists or swivel eyed goat shagger apologists - such is my faith in humanity. I think I'm going to quit now before the stupidity starts to tear a hole in the fabric of my being - although I'm acutely aware this has already begun to happen.
I'm going to get back to writing my statistics paper.
Wow this thread made it to 5 pages, mods must out somewhere
Only 3 pages really. 2 pages of bbr.com revelations.
I have no useful contribution to make.
I'm going to get back to writing my statistics paper.
No debate is that bad that this is a good option
My deepest sympathies 😉
It is complex i dont disagree
i dont disagree that we are better - why would i subscribe to a set of beliefs if i could not defend them [ they feel the same].
I dont think some sort of apocalypse or clash of cultures will occur and i think stories that fuel this perspective are an attempt to manipulate folk into being scared. Scared folk lash out and are willing to sully their principles to survive [ so am i obviously if i must]
Some young males behaved like dick that is the story
How many drunks intimidated folk that day or gangs of footbal fans or whatever...none of them threaten my way of life unless i lower myself to behaving like them .
Some young males behaved like dick that is the story
How many drunks intimidated folk that day or gangs of footbal fans or whatever...none of them threaten my way of life unless i lower myself to behaving like them .
Young football hooligans don't tend to have ideologies that are supported by heads of state.
I know our heads of state just support our brave boys out there fighting, killing and dying for freedom......far more civilised arent we.
I am out go do your stats
I know our heads of state just support our brave boys out there fighting, killing and dying for freedom......far more civilised arent we.
Please, those lot are enemies of democracy as well. Do you seriously think that I believe the huge hearts and minds bit of a mess in the Middle East is good for our way of life?
See the thing about democracy is that it is an incredibly unlikely blip in history, that is effectively a priceless china vase balanced on top of a pin head. Don't ever take it for granted and think it will always be this way, democracy needs maintaining and looking after. Something I personally believe we are failing to do in so many ways.
This wonderful environment you and I live in... where we are free to question authority, free to develop new scientific ideas, free to invent, free to shag whoever you please...goes completely against the nature of our history as a species.
I'm also slightly suspicious after your last line that you adhere to the 'noble savage' school of thought - but I could be wrong.
wow started this thread. went for a ride and came back to this. 😯 😯
😯
wow started this thread. went for a ride and came back to this.
Poor attempt at playing an innocent troll there tony. 
troll? no never 😈 Just thought it was worth sharing. 😀
looks like you all enjoyed a decent disagreeing with others repeatedly session.*
🙂 good night
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* would call it a debate but that would require a resolution.
I'm going to make a point so people like Junkyard et al don't misunderstand me.
I don't claim to be of superior virtue to a Muslim, as Benjamin Franklin stated.....no man has a monopoly on virtue....and that my friends is precisely the point. Democracy and liberalism should recognize this, religion and in this case Islam....on the whole... does not and never does unless religions hold on people is tempered. This is one of the areas where at a fundamental level, strong religious belief is the enemy of liberalism.
Funny to see Chechnya, ****stan and Malaysia being used as examples of 14th century middle eastern countries, and then bringing up Russia as if were a separate case from Chechnya.
Meanwhile, in 14th century Lebanon:
[img] 
[/img]
Meanwhile, in 14th century Lebanon:
I think you'll find that is in certain enclaves of Lebanon. Lebanon is seeing increased amounts of insecurity and extremism as you should well know, due to the actions of more but slightly different (apparently) religious nutcases across the border in Israel.
To the OP-
Just misguided teens who have i believe been spoken to and are unlikely to reoffend.
Also highly likely to now be sporting bruises from highly embarrassed parents.