[Closed] Have we done the tube drivers pay deal?

I'm quite surprised that in this day and age that tube trains even need drivers.

I seem to recall reading that several of the LU lines are now automated, e.g. the Victoria (since 1968?), Central, at least parts of the Jubilee and I think the Northern. The role of the "driver" is to open and close the doors.

In other parts of the world they seem to manage without any drivers, e.g. parts of the Paris metro. I've been on several of these and curiously I haven't died yet.

Does your job involve having to be responsible for the safety of thousands and thousands of people per day, having to have knowledge of life-saving techniques, as well as countless bits of safety equipment, being drilled for emergency situations such as terrorist attacks etc (which actually do happen on the Tube, in case you weren't aware), etc etc etc?

Yes.

He admits freely he hasnt the slightest concern about delivering a good service to London, with him his priorities begin and end with his members.

Well yes because that's his job - he's not in charge of the underground system is he.

To all those complaining on here - tell us how much you earn and what you do. Then we can judge if you're worth it or not.

I suspect most people here are paid based on demand and supply. Most tube train drivers are paid based on the strength of the union so it's not really the same thing is it?

Drac; the question was aimed at Flashy.

I think it's fantastic that at least some workers have a strong union who can fight their corner. I'd love to see many more professions benefit similarly. Especially paramedics, nurses, firefighters etc.

To all those complaining on here - tell us how much you earn and what you do. Then we can judge if you're worth it or not.

I woon't expect to be overwhelmed with responses if I were you. I suspect that the loudest shouters will probbly go quite once they've bin challenged. It's what usually happens on here.

But, we the customer will have the last laugh. Driverless trains are coming, we can all wave bye bye to that ignorant thug Crow and his merry men.

What you might find useful, is to pay attention to what someone like aP is saying, cos, like, he might know just a teeny bit more about stuff like that than you do.

The DLR is 'driverless', but still has a Passenger Service Operator on board each train, who has to sometimes drive the train manually if there's problems with the automated system. Which happens quite often, probbly several times a day. Also they have to carefully monitor the doors when opening and closing. The trains do not move until they have performed various safety tasks.

I suspect most people here are paid based on demand and supply. Most tube train drivers are paid based on the strength of the union so it's not really the same thing is it?

Tube drivers are paid according to the terms they've negotiated, just like everyone else.

I suspect most people here are paid based on demand and supply. Most tube train drivers are paid based on the strength of the union so it's not really the same thing is it?

Well, you have to wonder who the numptys really are, don't you? I doubt that many people outside 'fodder' jobs are truly paid on a supply and demand basis.

I sometimes wonder how complicit LUL or whatever it's called now is in all of this. I think they quite like having a bogey man round to heap blame on now and again.

Drac; the question was aimed at Flashy.

Why can't I answer though, I earn less than 50k and do all those things.

To all those complaining on here - tell us how much you earn and what you do. Then we can judge if you're worth it or not.

Paramedic, well I'm a Paramedic but also a manger I currently have 12 staff and may be getting more. Current wage is around £42,500 with shift allowances. A good wage I know but you did ask.

Tube drivers are paid according to the terms they've negotiated, just like everyone else

Seems like their negotiation is based on intimidation.

As for my salary, it's about 1/3 of what I get billed out at - underpaid?

I think it's fantastic that at least some workers have a strong union who can fight their corner. I'd love to see many more professions benefit similarly. Especially paramedics, nurses, firefighters etc.

"Seems like their negotiation is based on intimidation.

As for my salary, it's about 1/3 of what I get billed out at - underpaid?"

Their negotiation is based on their market position.

At risk of playing devil's advocate, £50k a year working in London isn't that much, considering they spend all day cooped up with little to no natural daylight and are responsible for the lives of thousands of passengers.

If anyone thinks it's easy money for sitting on their backside all day, and anyone could do it, why don't [i]you[/i] go and be a tube driver? I'm not advocating that their pay is right or wrong, it's what they negotiated though so they're entitled to it.

Drac, I'm not saying you're not worth it, and neither is Cheryl Cole. Quite the opposite in fact. I'd be happy for folk like you to be paid double, treble what you get, for the job youse do, because it's a vital and incredibly important one. I don't think your value to society is rewarded adequately.

Separated at birth?
Martin Jol
[img] [/img]

Bob Crow
[img] [/img]

why don't you go and be a tube driver

There's a lot of competition you know.

because the ambulance crews want to retain the right to return to their home station for breaks rather than take them at the nearest trust property, ffs.

This would leave you 1/2 hour to get to a shop and buy and eat your meal - which you would have to do twice in a 12 hour+ shift.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/859870-bob-crow-gets-taxpayers-help-with-rent-despite-earning-145k-a-year

nice chap, that Bob Crow

Tube drivers are paid according to the terms they've negotiated, just like everyone else.

Unlike the rest of us who use our talent to find jobs that pay well! Collective pay negotiations are a relic of the past and allow unions to unfairly hold the coutry to ransom.

Time to move on and consign unions to the bin, they've had their time.

Drac, I'm not saying you're not worth it, and neither is Cheryl Cole. Quite the opposite in fact. I'd be happy for folk like you to be paid double, treble what you get, for the job youse do, because it's a vital and incredibly important one. I don't think your value to society is rewarded adequately.

Yup I see that but I'd thought I'd point it out for others too.

because the ambulance crews want to retain the right to return to their home station for breaks rather than take them at the nearest trust property, ffs.

There's a lot more to it than that, either your Friend hasn't explained it to you or you didn't take notice. Woody has covered part of it but it was also in the agreement brought in by Agenda for Change. If they don't meet that agreement then they have to compensate.

The militant head of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT) is [b]believed[/b] to pay half the market rate for his taxpayer-subsidised house

Note the 'believed' bit. IE, there's no actual facts or owt here.

Can't see the bit where he's doing owt illegal, either. Can you?

And as for the 'market rate' bit, well, London housing is vastly overpriced anyway. Don't really get the 'taxpayer subsidised' bit either; he pays full rent, and his council tax and all his income tax etc, so probbly contributing more than he's being 'subsidised' by....

If you're going to post cobblers, at least make it entertaining cobblers....

The Victoria Line is/was automated - IIRC it's also the most reliable line....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line

IIRC the Unions campaigned against replacing the (automated) rolling stock with automated trains... for obvious reasons.

"Unlike the rest of us who use our talent to find jobs that pay well! Collective pay negotiations are a relic of the past and allow unions to unfairly hold the coutry to ransom."

There's nothing remotely unfair about it. They are in a position of strength, and use that strength to negotiate their deal.

Please don't tell me you actually believe that people are paid according to their talents?! People are paid according to what their employer can get away with. So, unless you view a race to the bottom as a good thing, you'll recognise the value of collective bargaining.

Still needs an 'operator' though dun't it?

for obvious reasons.

And what would they be, then?

Sorry, but as someone not expert in the operation of passenger tube trains, I don't know such things and they aren't at all 'obvious' to me....

Please don't tell me you actually believe that people are paid according to their talents?! People are paid according to what their employer can get away with.

Same thing isn't it? Well for those without bullying unions who can force payment to be above talent levels.

Driverless trains are coming,

Are they the same 'bullying' unions which have historically fought for better pay and conditions for all workers, racial and sexual equality in the workplace, rights for those with disabilities, etc?

And, seeing as it's quite topical, the same sort of 'bullying' unions which helped organise [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street ]the resistance against facism at Cable St in 1936[/url]?

[img] [/img]

"Same thing isn't it? Well for those without bullying unions who can force payment to be above talent levels."

Again, you seem to hold the mistaken belief that the world of work is a meritocracy.

No I don't recognise the benefits of collective bargaining!

Effectively it allows select groups of people to hold a city/coutry/industry to ransom for pay that is whey above the skills of their peers. I do not see anything remorely fair about that.

So if your a cleaner or librarian say you can strike but the impact is very low. However if you can bring the tube network to a stop you have huge leverage. They are not renumerated for their skills, rather their ability to wreak havoc on the capital.

Its all well saying their a decent sort ..they should be paid double ...but where so you stop? The economy is not growing; wage inflation increases real inflation. The losers of the average person on the street.

We can't all have pay rises. Anything of RPI + 0% is exceptionally good and better than the vast majority of the population. Like it or not the economy has been unsustainable for a number of years and our standard of living HAS to reduce. I believe that we ALL need to play our part in this.

Legislation has caught up, we're all forced to be quite nice now 😉

"Are they the same 'bullying' unions which have historically fought for better pay and conditions for all workers, racial and sexual equality in the workplace, rights for those with disabilities, etc?"

Well, quite. It seems that some on here are quite happy to enjoy the benefits fought for by unions, but can't bring themselves to shell out a few pennies on their oyster cards.

Again, you seem to hold the mistaken belief that the world of work is a meritocracy.

It is though the unskilled don't do so well - just hard to compare skills so we let demand and supply sort that out. Well apart from where the strong unions are.

"Effectively it allows select groups of people to hold a city/coutry/industry to ransom for pay that is whey above the skills of their peers. I do not see anything remorely fair about that."

There is nothing fair about anything other than a complete meritocracy. We don't have a meritocracy, so it's down to the workers to negotiate the best deal they can. That's what the tube drivers are doing. I don't see why people are up in arms about a group of workers behaving exactly the same as everyone else.

Collective pay negotiations are a relic of the past and allow unions to unfairly hold the coutry to ransom.

Time to move on and consign unions to the bin, they've had their time.

"It is though the unskilled don't do so well - just hard to compare skills so we let demand and supply sort that out. Well apart from where the strong unions are."

So if your job is outsourced to China to cut costs, presumably you won't mind? It's supply and demand, after all.

Still needs an 'operator' though dun't it?

And what would they be, then?

Sorry, but as someone not expert in the operation of passenger tube trains, I don't know such things and they aren't at all 'obvious' to me....

The 'operator' sits in a control room and is not a driver as such. One operator can control lots of trains.

The 'obvious' reason is that an automated train line means less jobs for the Union's members thus they campaign against it. Exactly like the luddites in the 18th centurys bashing up the mills.

They should automate the lot, it'd be more reliable, cost less, and wouldn't allow the capital to be held to ransom at a whim.

"The 'obvious' reason is that an automated train line means less jobs for the Union's members thus they campaign against it. Exactly like the luddites in the 18th centurys bashing up the mills."

So the union is campaigning against something that would put its members out of a job? Isn't that what they are there for?

BTW - you need to read up on the luddites.

randomjeremy - Member
At risk of playing devil's advocate, £50k a year working in London isn't that much, considering they spend all day cooped up with little to no natural daylight and are responsible for the lives of thousands of passengers.

It is quite a bit, considering that London weighting for most jobs is in the order of £3 - £4 k isn't it?

So if your job is outsourced to China to cut costs, presumably you won't mind? It's supply and demand, after all.

India. What should I do about it? I'm trying to improve my skills to make myself worth employing, is there a better approach?

The 'obvious' reason is that an automated train line means less jobs for the Union's members thus they campaign against it.

Oh does it? So each train no longer needs a Human Being sat in it making sure all the systems work perfectly then? Do the systems work perfectly? Do they never fail? What happens when something unexpected happens, like a person on the line, or terrorist alert etc? And can one operator really be so super-aware they can cope with multiple unexpected incidents at once?

They should automate the lot, it'd be more reliable, cost less

Ok, so you've got the evidence to support this claim I take it then?

[i]they have been saying that for 30 years, it would cost billions upon billions and will not happen for at least 50 years. Due to costs and safety issues.[/i]

I'm fairly confident that Lift Attendants used to say much the same 🙂

"India. What should I do about it? I'm trying to improve my skills to make myself worth employing, is there a better approach?"

So you're quite happy with the race to the bottom? Say you re-train, get another job, and that job is outsourced too. What then?

So the union is campaigning against something that would put its members out of a job? Isn't that what they are there for?

BTW - you need to read up on the luddites.

Technically they don't have a job on the Victoria line at present - it doesn't have 'drivers' (or at least doesn't - I can't seem to find out if they won their campaign).

What have I missed about the Luddites? Bunch of people stuck who protested (by destroying mechanised looms) against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution. Same thing expect the mechanised looms are the automated trains, the method of destruction is a striking workforce, and the industrial revolution is the modern world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

[i]Oh does it? So each train no longer needs a Human Being sat in it making sure all the systems work perfectly then? Do the systems work perfectly? Do they never fail? What happens when something unexpected happens, like a person on the line, or terrorist alert etc? And can one operator really be so super-aware they can cope with multiple unexpected incidents at once?[/i]

I'd stay clear of lifts then 😉

they have been saying that for 30 years, it would cost billions upon billions and will not happen for at least 50 years. Due to costs and safety issues.

I'm fairly confident that Lift Attendants used to say much the same