Ask me if I’m bothered?
Ask yourself if you should be?
Ask yourself if you should be?
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Have you asked yourself how informed your opinion is?
Most articles published on battery production assume disposal at end of life at an average of 8 years...this isn't remotely true. 15 years is widely believed to be the tipping point for a modern EV battery. Even then, it's use in energy storage is almost a given. Even after that, research suggests that 85% of the rare materials used in EV batteries can be recycled.
The newest battery technology doesn't use just lithium, they can use sulfur or sodium, greatly reducing the amount of mining/extraction which needs to be done.
The latest Li batteries don't even use cobalt.
Even under the worst of circumstances (energy generation using FF, large, inefficient EV driven poorly) an EV will environmentally pay for itself in 10 years (100k km). Under the best, less than 2 years (20k km).
Wife was getting our 10 year old car serviced at the local BMW dealership, and had a wander round the new car showroom looking at EVs and hybrids. Even the sales staff advised her to keep our car for a few more years until the range, reliability and charging infrastructure matures. This is where my thinking is at, but was surprising to hear this from people with a vested interest and commission to sell new cars.
I think it depends on your usage. If most of your trips start and end at home and you have the ability to home charge, it's an easy switch. Just chose a car which suits 95% of your trips and either hire for the remaining 5% or accept that it's more awkward. If you don't/can't do those things, I'd probably suggest a Tesla or sticking with ICE.
A self charging hybrid might also be an option.
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Someone needs to stop reading the Daily Mail.
Surely arguing about whether EV or ICE is more or less damaging to the environment is splitting hairs. You don’t save the environment by buying new cars. If the OP is concerned about the environment then surely keeping the existing Merc is the thing to do.
+1 roverpig or just get a smaller ice car and drive less if you're worried about the environment.
Surely arguing about whether EV or ICE is more or less damaging to the environment is splitting hairs. You don’t save the environment by buying new cars. If the OP is concerned about the environment then surely keeping the existing Merc is the thing to do.
I don't think there is any simple right or wrong answer. If the Merc stays on the road with a new owner then it makes little difference.
Even deciding not to have a car is potentially problematic. How will you spend the money with less environmental impact?
Surely arguing about whether EV or ICE is more or less damaging to the environment is splitting hairs. You don’t save the environment by buying new cars. If the OP is concerned about the environment then surely keeping the existing Merc is the thing to do.
Just get a smaller ice car & drive less if you’re really worried about the environment.
Both perfectly valid points, but for some (drive for work), it's not an option. I do think that companies which require such large amounts of miles/year that there should be some form of environmental penalty levied where they haven't tried hard enough to reduce the effects.
You don’t save the environment by buying new cars.
No but if you need one anyway.. like for example one gets crashed or goes rusty or whatever, then you should think about an EV.
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
I have yes, but you're deflecting the question. SHOULD you care if you are doing the right thing or not? You've answered that question indirectly, you apparently do think you should care.
If the Merc stays on the road with a new owner then it makes little difference.
It does. If the OP has to buy a new car then it's one more car being made, and at the other end of the chain that means one more car being scrapped. And most cars that are scrapped would be perfectly repairable, they just don't get repaired because the cost is below their market value. And if there weren't so many new cars coming into the top end, then their market value would be higher and they'd be repaired.
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Best you don't research how steel, aluminium, cement etc etc are 'created'...
Both perfectly valid points, but for some (drive for work), it’s not an option
I drive for work, used to do 30k pa in an astra sized daewoo 20yrs ago, now much less & mostly by tube & bus in London. Only went for bigger cars when my 3 sons grew to 6ft+ & even then we managed camping & bikes without resorting to anything bigger than a mondeo hatch. Most peoples "need" is actually a "want".
Best you don’t research how steel, aluminium, cement etc etc are ‘created’…
Not to mention the petroleum industry. Did you know that burning petroleum products produces huge amounts of CO2 which is having a terrible impact on the global environment?
was surprising to hear this from people with a vested interest and commission to sell new cars
I've had the same - was chatting to the new car sales person about buying an EV when I collected my car after its MoT and they basically said that now was not a good time to buy a new car unless you absolutely have to. Not what I expected, but then given that they're struggling to make enough cars to meet demand at the moment perhaps not surprising.
It does. If the OP has to buy a new car then it’s one more car being made, and at the other end of the chain that means one more car being scrapped.
I agree, generally cars are not repaired because it no longer makes financial sense.
This leads to oddities such as VW Camper vans which hold their value well not entirely based on actual quality but because of perceived quality. Because they hold their value well, they are worth fixing for longer. As such there are more examples of older vehicles on the road. Thus perpetuating the myth of quality.
The chip shortage may be good for the environment by pushing up the value of secondhand cars and keeping them on the road longer.
I’d agree that if you have to buy a new car then buying an EV is probably better for the environment than a new ICE car, but it’s marginal and misses the point. Surely the question should be whether you really need a new car. If you want to help the environment then drive less and keep your car for longer. Trying to claim that you are helping the environment by buying a new EV is like trying to claim that you are dieting because you put natural yoghurt on your chocolate pudding instead of ice cream.
And if there weren’t so many new cars coming into the top end, then their market value would be higher and they’d be repaired.
Which is currently what we are experiencing.
Tbh France and Spain - used cars hold their value and so are repaired longer... You see alot more old cars on the roads over there.
Trying to claim that you are helping the environment by buying a new EV is like trying to claim that you are dieting because you put natural yoghurt on your chocolate pudding instead of ice cream.
This is where I'm at and hence the push back against people shouting the praises of EV cars as if it absolves them of their impact on the environment. They're currently far more expensive than ICE cars whatever way you do it and what I don't like is I can see us heading the way of it being socially unacceptable to have an ICE car due to people's opinions on the environmental impact. That will surely result in it simply being another reason being poor is seen as socially unacceptable?
Surely the question should be whether you really need a new car.
Which was the OPs point wasn't it?
They’re currently far more expensive than ICE cars
They will end up cheaper before long.
Cars getting scrapped in the UK isn't necessarily the end of the road. Lots get shipped to second and third world countries. What is left is often broken down for parts. Anything left after that is almost all recycled.
I am not disagreeing that we should buy less new cars. But as always it is complicated and the full environmental impacts are very difficult to calculate. I don't think we can be too judgemental on decisions other people make
I am of the mind that the only foolproof way to do less environmental damage is to earn/spend less money.
This is where I’m at and hence the push back against people shouting the praises of EV cars as if it absolves them of their impact on the environment.
Who's doing that?
Who’s doing that?
Lots of people
This is where I’m at and hence the push back against people shouting the praises of EV cars as if it absolves them of their impact on the environment.
I think that's your imagination. Most people know the downsides of EVs, but have considered that the upsides outweigh them. A quick search on here would show large numbers of people saying the exact same thing you are. Most people who are environmentally conscious are well aware of the issues with battery chemicals, but also aware of the changes in the industry (see above) which are being drive by demand. And demand is people buying EVs.
We are at the very very early stages of a big change in how transport is fuelled. Don't forget that renewable energy generation is also going up. In 20 years' time the carbon footprint of transport will be much less than today, but in our capitalist society this won't happen unless people buy the cars. Preferably without scrapping older cars first though.
Lots of people
It would be helpful if you could provide some examples.
It would be helpful if you could provide some examples.
To be fair ransos is right.
Most folk are too busy telling you how their electric car is cheaper at point of use while blissfully ignoring the sunk cost.
Most folk are too busy telling you how their electric car is cheaper at point of use while blissfully ignoring the sunk cost.
Not really. The problem with the 'sunk cost' is that someone is paying it, and that can only be rolled up into the cost of the car. Unless you mean environmental cost, which clearly is there at the moment. But it's not clear exactly how much because if you Google for evidence you seem to get biased arguments or simply click-bait. It's not easy to determine the real facts.
However, a massive amount of research is going into improving it (I get daily stories based on published research not newspapers) and this is only happening because demand is there. And demand is only there because people are buying the cars.
Most people know the downsides of EVs, but have considered that the upsides outweigh them.
I don't think I've seen mention of how we need to decarbonise the National Grid? At the moment we're at 2.2% coal so you could argue that a lot of EVs are coal powered
Not really. The problem with the ‘sunk cost’ is that someone is paying it, and that can only be rolled up into the cost of the car.
Is that a round about way of making no point ?
Physical cost of purchase of ev is a significant number larger than of the equivalent petrol model.
That is the sunk upfront cost.
But point of use is cheaper and it's that that people keep going on about. Bit like when folk were screaming to buy tax free cars to save 200 quid a year yet spending 10 grand to do it.....
