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No it’s not, it’s taking away the root causes and challenging the zealots and getting the community to see them for what they are
Or you can just shout calling them racist or fascist and see if that works
I tend to agree with that view. Because
Not a jot has changed for these people, they have in their belief nothing to lose by voting for Brexit because it just can’t get any worse.
Not a jot has changed for these people, they have in their belief nothing to lose by voting for Brexit because it just can’t get any worse.
News flash - it can get worse and probably will. Still, they voted for it so...
🤷♂️
play Boris at his own populist game. Propose a properly radical set of policies
And you've totally missed the point as usual, polices and populism are different ends of the spectrum, populism is all about scapegoating another part of society and not having any challenging polices, as for radical policies, Corbyn tried that and the rest was history. Many people will be extremely wary of UBI even if they benefit from it directly. They would rather other people who they deem not worthy not get it, some will be dubious about the affordability, others will be concerned with the impact on society as a whole if UBI is set at a reasonable level and loads don't need to work.
Also people will never be happy, even people in affluent areas of the country aren't happy, chasing that pipe dream really doesn't work.
populism is all about scapegoating another part of society and not having any challenging polices, as for radical policies
Correct on the first bit, wrong on the second. Yes populism scapegoats minority groups, but it also comes with policies which will keep the majority on side. Where do you think all this levelling up stuff has come from? The one opportunity labour have is that Boris isn't a very good populist, because we all know he'll renege on his promises and the people he claims to support will eventually realise they've been conned.
The more important point however is that labour need to be more ambitious and take some risks. This cowardly, self-policing, frilling round the edges boring stuff appeals only to a tiny few middle class people who prize stability and boredom over a bit of chaos and excitement. There's not a lot of appetite for that right now, because the culture war that brexit has created divides and amplifies opinion, or causes outright apathy. Boring everyone to death with talk of responsibility and competence isn't going to change anyone's minds or win any votes.
He said "challenging policies"... populism normally comes promising simple "common sense" policy, with claims that it will negatively effect only others, not you, the targeted voter.
This cowardly, self-policing,
Disciplined would be another way of putting it, not spraying policies all over the place which are contradictory and never going to happen.
frilling round the edges boring stuff
Agree. And my "new labour" comment above wasn't flippant. This was big bold and a break with the past which did get people all over the country to vote. (Had it been less successful, we might have had PR...)
play Boris at his own populist game. Propose a properly radical set of policies
That's been tried. But if they are proposed by someone who isn't 'likeable' then people just say 'yeah you're talking rubbish, that'll never work, that's pie in the sky'. If they are proposed by someone they do like, they'll get behind them.
That's what people mean when they call it a popularity contest.
If they are proposed by someone they do like, they’ll get behind them.
Yes they need someone with a bit of personality to be the salesperson. Lets be honest that's not Starmer, and it wasn't Corbyn (at least the 2019 version). That's also the reason I didn't vote for RLB, because it clearly wasn't her either. Rayner showed some promise but seems to have had a lobotomy much like Burnham did back in 2015. So I don't know who can, but whoever it is they need to have something to sell, and they need to sound like they mean it. Starmer fails on all counts.
I agree with all of that. Except perhaps the Rayner bit.
Their only hope is to forget convention and orthodoxy
Nope. That won't work. People don't believe it. Because the press will tell them it's fantasy. Lots of folk believe the Orthodoxy that "there is no magic money tree" because it feels right, it's their lived experience and was the previous generations lived experience. You can do that from a position of power, but it's very hard to do it from opposition.
Bear in mind that this is also a local election with local issues mixed in.
“there is no magic money tree”
There isn't, sure we can print money but that won't work long term as we are in a global community and our currency will be devalued. If it was that easy every tin pot dictator out there would be doing it.
but it also comes with policies which will keep the majority on side
Unfortunately the majority at the moment will back anything they think will make some one else miserable. We've seen this play out in the States. It's amazing how many people who directly benefit from Obama Care oppose it. Combination of not trusting the government to spend their money (although the insurance system in the States costs people loads and often lets them down) and not wanting people on lower incomes from having the same health care provision, it's mental, but it's real and the UK population isn't much different.
populism normally comes promising simple “common sense” policy, with claims that it will negatively effect only others, not you, the targeted voter
This in spades, simple to grasp headlines for the hard of thinking when problems are complex and an unpleasant.
but that won’t work long term as we are in a global community and our currency will be devalued
No, you control the money supply by taxing it out of circulation. Which is also why it doesn't work for "every tin pot dictator". It's more or less what we do now anyway, but without being honest with people about it. I don't think the Hartlepool by-election is where Labour should start having that conversation though.
If it was that easy every tin pot dictator out there would be doing it.
You do realise that the US and UK, and the EU are already 'doing it'? Where do you think all the money for covid has come from? Has it devalued the pound and the dollar? Has it raised inflation? No, it hasn't done any of these because your assumptions and information are wrong.
I don’t think the Hartlepool by-election is where Labour should start having that conversation though.
Maybe not, but they need to start somewhere. If they go into the next election pushing out of date 1990s economics they're dead.
It’s more or less what we do now anyway, but without being honest with people about it. I don’t think the Hartlepool by-election is where Labour should start having that conversation though.
^^^^^^
So have we decided exactly how racist/xenophobic/nationalist Labour need to pretend to be yet?
Or not?
So have we decided exactly how racist/xenophobic/nationalist Labour need to pretend to be yet?
Or not?
Well the candidate would probably like the old Friday Kylie page
https://order-order.com/2021/03/19/labour-women-upset-by-hartlepool-candidates-laddish-banter/
^^^
Pah, merely sexist, the amateur.
And Ivanovic is a bit too tanned, so unlikely to meet with approval on the streets of Heidelberg in 1932 Hartlepool in 2021...
69.57% Leave area.
Electorate very brexity.
Tory win.
It was "brexity" when Labour won in the 2017 and 2019 elections.
Anyway, it's nice that Labour HQ is parachuting in Paul Williams, after Starmer said that they mustn't interfere with local democracy. I wonder if he'll have a Damascene conversion about his enthusiasm for a second referendum?
Corbyn was personally unpopular but Starmer was the traitor remoaner in chief as far as lots of people were concerned. ‘Getting Brexit done’ was a key part of Johnson’s appeal and Starmer was arguing for the opposite. I don’t see why people are trying to pretend otherwise.
Speaking as someone who actually did canvassing for the 2019 election, the key message I got on the doorstep was that even normally floating voters were being driven to the Tories with Corbyn and the clique around him being the big flashing neon reason why.
"He hates Britain"
"He doesn't support our troops"
"He's a terrorist sympathiser"
"I'm not a Conservative but I can't let that man into No.10"
All this I heard first hand on the doorstep. Only ever heard Starmer's name approvingly from "remainy types" the people who were planning to vote Tory never mentioned him once and I'm fairly sure most wouldn't have even known who he was. Corbyn came up again and again and again.
Corbyn wasn't just toxic to Labour he was toxic to the entire opposition, people who'd have otherwise voted Lib Dem etc voted Tory to actively keep him out. Again, I heard this first hand from these very voters.
Until certain people realise this then Labour is screwed and sadly so is the country.
^ We've debated Corbyn at great length, but the fact is Hartlepool is currently a Labour seat, having been held under Corbyn's leadership in the 2017 and 2019 elections. Whatever his failings as leader may be, they didn't bother the people of Hartlepool sufficiently to elect somebody else.
It was “brexity” when Labour won in the 2017 and 2019 elections.
Amateurish effort.
The Labour Vote was 52.5% in 2017 with Tories on 34.2% and UKIP 11.5%.
In 2019 the Labour vote fell by 14.8% to 37.7%. The Tories fell by 5.3% but the Brexshit Party got 25.8% in 2019. If you say UKIP = BXP then the area is not only muchos Brexity (69.57% in favour of Brexshit), but is getting more Brexity according to the slower to react GE results. I predict a victory for the brownshirts.
Your attempt to pull up figures without showing the current direction of travel is infantile.
Until certain people realise this then Labour is screwed and sadly so is the country.
It's ok no one is proposing we bring Corbyn back. We've moved on to thinking about the future, and how the current leadership appears to not be doing much better than him, and as ransos says, possibly worse in Hartlepool.
Speaking as someone who actually did canvassing for the 2019 election
respect
Thanks!
Stake boarding was my main thing but canvassing was interesting as well.
Don't like how things are going? Find a party that most aligns with your world view and crack on. Does a lot more good than sitting at home whining, made a few new friends out of it to boot.
December elections suck though, froze my knackers off.
Your attempt to pull up figures without showing the current direction of travel is infantile.
Well branes, the 2019 result was a higher share of the vote than they achieved in 2015, and you'll also be aware that 2017 was their best vote share since 2001. That's right - their best performance in 16 years, under the dreadful Mr Corbyn.
As you might put it yourself, attempting to develop a narrative based on two data points is amateurish.
If you want to try and twist the facts to suit your agenda, you're going to need to make a much better effort than that pathetic attempt.
So, perhaps someone else can explain why the usual suspects are so worried about a seat that has been solidly Labour since it was created in 1974.
the 2019 result was a higher share of the vote than they achieved in 2015, and you’ll also be aware that 2017 was their best vote share since 2001.
He's not wrong...
So, perhaps someone else can explain why the usual suspects are so worried about a seat that has been solidly Labour since it was created in 1974.
Because look at the Tory + Brexit share last time. Most of those Brexit Party votes will go to Johnsons Vote Leave Conservatives. Do you think otherwise?
Because look at the Tory + Brexit share last year. Most of those Brexit Party votes will go to Johnsons Vote Leave Conservatives. Do you think otherwise?
I think that if Labour loses Hartlepool, it won't be because of Brexit.
Agreed. But I didn't say that.
Agreed. But I didn’t say that.
True. I think it's the problem we've seen across much of the north - Labour has spent about 25 years weighing rather than counting votes, and now it's starting to bite them on the arse. The idea that Labour's electoral uncertainty in Hartlepool should be pinned on Corbyn, Brexit, or everyone being racist, is frankly laughable.
The far/extreme rightwing vote is >50%.
The only way Labour will win is if the far (Tory) and extreme (BXP/UKIP) right wing parties split that vote. The result of this by election is entirely down to what the extreme right choose to do.
What a wonderful place.
Because look at the Tory + Brexit share last time. Most of those Brexit Party votes will go to Johnsons Vote Leave Conservatives. Do you think otherwise
I think the more interesting question is where have all the LibDem votes gone? Their collapse would say the issue is more complicated for Labour as they don't seem to have benefited
If you're branding the Tories the far right you've missed the trick that they've pulled. Even without Covid, their economic policy would have been branded as "marxist" at other points in time.
Regionally on Teesside you have relocation of government jobs to the area, nationalisation of a commercially doomed airport, nationalisation of the steelworks site, government cash getting thrown right, nationalisation of east coast rail, , nationalisation of northern rail, talk of "levelling up" an more government investment, creation of a freeport to direct investment to the area etc. Nationally we have commitment to increasing minimum wages, energy price gaps, increased taxes on empty homes, national infrastructure banks, clampdown on payday lending, interventions into the letting market etc.
These are things the Daily Mail went bonkers when proposed previously by labour. If you look at the new Tory MPs across the river in Redcar and Cleveland what they do very well is combine economic policies like those above in a package with a good dose of English nationalism. All delivered by social media savvy MPs who are from the area and sound credible while saying it. I lived in the area for 5 years and while there's a lot to like about it I found the lurch to this Nationalism quite scary.
There is absolutely nowhere for labour to go - the Tories have taken their good ideas, started to implement them and changed the game.
If you’re branding the Tories the far right you’ve missed the trick that they’ve pulled. Even without Covid, their economic policy would have been branded as “marxist” at other points in time.
On the contrary. It is called National Socialism for a reason.
I see that we've reached Godwin.
There isn’t, sure we can print money but that won’t work long term as we are in a global community and our currency will be devalued. If it was that easy every tin pot dictator out there would be doing it
Nonsense.
You have misunderstood how the monetary system in a sovereign country with its own central bank works.
Government spending is always new money creation. The limit is not the supply of money but resources and labour.
Inflation is the metric we can use to judge whether the economy is overheating - which is on a long term downward trend. Even with huge covid relief spending - it still sits at 0.9%.
You can't devalue a currency like this when it's not pegged against something.
There is absolutely nowhere for labour to go
There is, but they’re going to need to grow some balls and break out from their orthodox centrist bubble. Unfortunately they have a leader who is the very embodiment of the things labour have become synonymous with, which is the comfortable, liberal, well-meaning but ultimately patronising chattering middle classes. Remember that story of Mandelson mistaking mushy peas for guacamole? Well that’s today’s Labour Party in a nutshell, and it’s why they’re f***** in places like Hartlepool.
I read that was actually an American intern working for Mandelson but the story is better!
I see that we’ve reached Godwin.
69.57% Leave.
UKIP/BXP 2017 12%
UKIP/BXP 2019 26%
I reckon the residents of Hartlepool beat me to it, comrade.
I'm surprised that only dannyh appears to have made the connection with ukip voters and the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei aka the German Nazi Party
Ironically if you back far enough you will find that the origins of the EU lie in the Nazi occupation of France, and the resulting collaboration of the Vichy government with Berlin to synchronise the economies of France and Germany.
After the surrender of Germany it was initially simply tweaked to benefit France rather than Germany.
Post war France wanted to stop a return of the Nazis or anything similar? Can’t imagine why…
Ironically if you back far enough you will find that the origins of the EU lie in the Nazi occupation of France,
Even more ironically, Churchill proposed a Franco-British union which would have involved a joint citizenship, foreign trade, currency, and military in 1940 as France was being invaded. The nazi origins sound like, well, let’s call it propaganda.
So Rayner hasn’t had a lobotomy?
@ Riksbar
Churchill only proposed that in a desperate attempt to keep France in the fight and not surrender.
There was a doc on tv a few nights back, interesting stuff.
As for this country, I think the Tories will absolutely run the UK (or what's left of it) into the ground before Labour get a look in.
Before you know it we'll be "balancing the books" AKA The Mother of all Austerities. Cue the inevitable riots and people might start looking for change.
So much of the public sector is already cut to the bone but many simply haven't seen it because it hasn't affected them yet, like MH services for instance. Then there are people that have never been on benefits or not for decades anyway. That's a whole load of demonisation and humiliation that most are lucky to never experience.
Many people are in for an awful shock.