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The news today is quite awful, but sadly not that unusual or unexpected:
* Homelessness has risen over the past 7 years
* Seven in 10 UK workers are 'chronically broke'
* Brexit
* Ongoing NHS travails
* (violent) Crime rising in England and Wales
That's just what's above the fold on The Guardian website today. At what point do the Tories have the good grace to concede they've failed?
And given their catastrophic failure, how/why are Labour not clearly riding higher than they are? I think that is equally unforgivable, given what should be an open goal.
I always hated Tony Blair, but do I remember briefly tolerating him for about 6 weeks in 1997 as the wave of hope and optimism swept the UK (much like seems to be present in a booming global economy).
Truly I despair. And the whataboutery will start - but surely the only valid response is to dissolve parliament and elect a benevolent dictator as parliament and government has failed us.
I'd say the Tories are indefensible, and Labour are cretins.
Who should we have as our benevolent dictator? I'd like to see Graham Norton in that role, perhaps?
>At what point do the Tories have the good grace to concede they’ve failed?
By their own measure (the wealth of the top 0.1%) they have been a massive success. They haven't given a shit about anyone else since the 80s.
I'd do that. Not sure about the benevolent bit though.
We already have a benevolent dictator. He's called Cougar.
Your problem is in your op. Two party system that is only presenting bad options.
They have never succeeded. No change, verminous in 1948 and verminous now.
That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through.
A Tory admitting they are “wrong”?
Never gonna a’ppen...
The Tories know they are failing. It's been reported that the 1922 committee has received "over 40" of the required 48 letters from MPs to force a leadership contest. And Boris is definitely lining himself up. Not sure changing the leader at this point will do much
Maybe now is the time to get behind the Lib Dems.
@Zippykona - if only the Lib Dems were a realistic prospect, and not serial sell-outs (see Scotland early on in the life of Holyrood, and then again 2010)
What do they want? Progressive change! When do they want it? In due course....
It's a source of morbid fascination for me that people still vote for them, what more do they have to do? We've had seven and a half years of everything being Labour's fault (including Carillion's demise according to Chris Grayling and IDS), but short of your Tory MP turning up and defecating on your doorstep they seem to be able to say and do whatever they like.
Honestly, I have several Conservative friends who express amazement at this situation.
>They have never succeeded.
Not really true at all. Just been reading "Five Giants", a biography of the welfare state, and for many years Labour and the Tories outbid each other each election on how much they would spend on the welfare state, with each often enacting the previous administrations policies as the government flipped between Tories and Labour. It's only mid to late 80s that they seem to really start demonising segments of society.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px;">
</span>By their own measure (the wealth of the top 0.1%) they have been a massive success. They haven’t given a shit about anyone else since the 80s.
I was about to make the same point, I'm sure they think they're doing a cracking job thank you very much.
If they could just privatise the NHS a bit quicker, defund the the police a bit more so they can put that i the hands of G4S and then do the same for the fire service, that will make their corporate chums even happier!
I'm no Tory, but (and I don't blame Labour for this) they took over at a time of unprecedented economic turmoil. We were more indebted than any other time in history, our only big financial sector was in crisis, we were fighting two protracted, unpopular and unwinable wars. There was no easy or nice way out of it, if Labour have held power no doubt they would have done it differently but we'd be here moaning about different but equally painful problems.
Brexit is their fault no doubt, but you can't ignore the will of the people forever and Labour were just as keen to blame the EU for unpopular legislation when it suited and you cannot deny they fought for Remain tooth and nail whilst Labour did the square root of SFA either because of deep seated protectionist feelings and/or plain old fashioned politics of letting the Tories lose.
Maybe now UKIP is finally dead they'll bring this Brexit disaster back from the brink, or just remain in all but name.
You could say the same thing about Trump in the US. Despite all the brouhaha, he still has a very solid core of support.
@BillOddie - probably true, but so profoundly dis-spiriting 🙁
Governments have been incompetent for decades, if not forever.
Post-Brexit they are talking about initiatives to strengthen industry and create jobs. Why the F weren't they doing that before? Don't tell me EU rules prevented them doing anything.
Given the Tory's evangelical zeal to make the rich richer, punish the poor for being poor, and privatising everything in sight, I'd say they probably think its all going rather well at the moment
As for a benevolent dictator... the one who fitted that role perfectly died yesterday 🙁
"Brexit is their fault no doubt, but you can’t ignore the will of the people forever and Labour were just as keen to blame the EU for unpopular legislation when it suited and you cannot deny they fought for Remain tooth and nail whilst Labour did the square root of SFA either because of deep seated protectionist feelings and/or plain old fashioned politics of letting the Tories lose."
As much as it pains me as a Labour voter, this is very true. Specifically, I recall that the fuel taxes were blamed on the EU, as was pretty much everything else unpopular at the time.
Unfortunately, these mistruths accumulate and if you throw in a bit of plain old British anti-immigrant sentiment, some social media posts about light bulbs and hairdryers, oddly-shaped bananas (or was it cucumbers?), Turkey and a phantom pan-European army, you get the current state of affairs.
I never imagined in a million years that I'd ever have cause to write Michael Hezeltine a thank you letter, nor did I imagine that I'd get a very kind response. It's a shame that the rest of his party have become third-rate Brexit evangelist throwbacks to an imperial past that never really existed.
"<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #444444;">It’s a source of morbid fascination for me that people still vote for them"</span>
My theory is: a kind of snobbery. Voting tory is seen by some people as the 'better class' vote. A bit like these asschins who believe there's a hierarchy of class attached to what supermarket one shops in. Or the sort that grew up saying 'bath', but have trained themselves to now say 'barth'.
I have a family member who seemed to be proud to be voting tory at the last go around. Even though she was on benefits due to a bad accident... the phrase 'turkeys voting for christmas' springs to mind.
Mind you, I can't talk. I hate them both and have never voted. The labour years felt like a police state. Bloody police helicopter over my house every night. At least when the torys are in there's generally better music around.
On radio 4 yesterday they explained how PMQ's is no longer PMQ's. After being asked about the NHS or something, Theresa May just read out a prepared script about Labours flip-flopping position on tuition fees, which within minutes was uploaded to Facebook etc.. for people to share.
Here in Cheam it used to be a lib seat.
However at the last election we know people that voted tory ro keep Corbyn out.
People are either voting against may or against Corbyn.
It's really a who is least hated competition.
Similar to jambourgie above, I know a number of people who vote tory because only rich people vote that way and they want people to think they are rich... All the actual wealthy people I know vote for ukip.
Zippykona has it.
Voting FOR something is more powerful than voting against it. People need something/someone to vote FOR.
Much as I support the LibDems and understand why Sir Nick entered coalition with the Tories, I can't help but wonder what would've happened in 2015 (and later Brexit) had the Liberals been untainted and there to give people a genuine alternative (change).
"At least when the torys are in there’s generally better music around."
Genuine LOL here.
"Voting FOR something is more powerful than voting against it. People need something/someone to vote FOR."
I think that's Corbyn's message, several of his policies chime with the times, more so than the current govt, but his performances at PMQs and his stance on Brexit are a huge irritation. He could and should be the most popular option by a country mile.
Aren't the Tories succeeding, by their measures? The poor are poorer and the rich are richer, the NHS is being lined up for privatisation, we're getting out of the Eu before they clamp down on tax avoidance...
It's a shame we don't have a functioning opposition party.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px; line-height: 15.36px; background-color: #eeeeee;">The <span style="text-decoration: underline;">news </span>today is quite awful</span>
Does anyone else think that the current state of what is called "news" doesnt help either, the constant rush for clicks, views, likes, shares and comments or something to get people angry or scaremonger?
I think even if a snap election was called and another party got in, the state of the world today means not much will be achieved in the long haul due to issues being blown up and demanding lots of time now?
.
cant see that youre averageTory voter cares much about it tho
Not strictly true. They do care that all these urchins and peasants are making 'their' streets look untidy. That doesn't extend to any empathy or even a modicum of concern for them, of course.
Hence them setting about demonising, then criminalising them. If they can't be killed, then surely at least they can be locked up?
The eternal question in politics (in England and Wales at least) isn't, "how shit a job are this lot doing?", but, "out of the two teams offered to us, which will do the lest shit job?"
On radio 4 yesterday they explained how PMQ’s is no longer PMQ’s. After being asked about the NHS or something, Theresa May just read out a prepared script about Labours flip-flopping position on tuition fees, which within minutes was uploaded to Facebook etc.. for people to share.
You don't remember what time/programme this was do you? I'd quite like to listen.
The Tories inherited a load of carp from Labour. The failing economy was during their dodgy reign.
<span style="color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: #eeeeee;"> the wave of hope and optimism swept the UK (much like seems to be present in a booming global economy).</span>
Distinct whiff of “seen from afar” here. Don’t other places have their problems? I’m sure the U.K. looks pretty great from outside too (ok, maybe excluding Brexit!)
when do we admit the Tories failed?
Maybe it's the caffeine, but this feels like quite a nuanced question. I'm not a Tory voter but would happily admit that Cameron and Osborne did run the country reasonably well for a while. They weren't beholden to cretins like BoJo for power, and while they were elitist toffs, they at least knew something about how to be politicians.
Unfortunately, they had no clue about people, hence the Brexit referendum.
Everything since that decision has been an utter ****show. The problem is that there isn't an alternative for the reasonable liberal middle class voter. Corbyn is clearly very used to opposition (so can make massive claims confident he'll never be held to account); but more than that he's just not a political leader, and he's surrounded himself by other non-leaders.
As on HIGNFY a few weeks back:
(Hislop) "What's the Labour Party's stance on Brexit?"
"I think you'll find we've been very clear on our stance"
"OK, but what is it?"
(another non-answer).
And the Lib Dems sadly are just nothing right now, and likely to be nothing for at least 2 more election cycles.
It's enough to make one vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party
Didn’t it all go wrong recently with Cameroooooon the nut!
I can’t see why the people aren’t able to employ a decent enough philanthropic like Oprah in the US of A.
Maybe someone like David Attenborough for prime minister with people around him who actually live in the real workd who care for the way this and other countries are evolving.
Now I see why USA voted Trump due to wanting radical change as even if politics should be slow & steady progress, it just gets to the point where radical dramatic improvement in policies needs acting upon and that has waaaaayy gone past an age ago already.
just a waffling 2p view
Labour were in power during the banking crisis and as such had the choice of doing nothing or pumping enough money into the system to keep it afloat. Post 2010 meanwhile, the timeframe of the Conservatives' promise to balance the deficit has slipped from 2015 to somewhere after 2025, during which time there were originally planned to be a number of cuts to Corporation Tax and Income Tax - the latter has been shelved. Debt as a proportion of GDP has dramatically increased under the Conservatives: "General government deficit in the financial year ending March 2016, the UK government deficit (net borrowing) was £76.6 billion (4.1% of GDP). This represents a decrease of £17.8 billion since the financial year ending March 2015, and is the lowest value as a percentage of GDP since the financial year ending March 2008 when it was 3.0% of GDP (£45.8 billion). However, the deficit remains above the Maastricht reference value of 3.0%."
I'll leave any speculation as to how quickly the deficit and public debt could be cleared if we joined the EU in clamping down on tax avoidance to speculation, however a cleared deficit would fuel public demands for increasing public spending again which is most definitely not ideologically acceptable to the Conservatives.
I never thought I'd ever defend New Labour's public record, I've been hugely critical of New Labour in the past - even as a member of the Labour Party myself these days, I'm vehemently anti-New Labour. I guess that it serves to illustrate just how piss-poor the current mob are.
Lots of opprobrium for the Tories (and also disdain for Labour). I have some faith in people left.
I wonder if @jambalya and @teamhurtmore and the others on the right (misnomer if ever there was) on the Brexit thread will tell us proles why we are too dumb to see the magnificence of how the Tories are "governing".
HoratioHufnagel Member
On radio 4 yesterday they explained how PMQ’s is no longer PMQ’s. After being asked about the NHS or something, Theresa May just read out a prepared script about Labours flip-flopping position on tuition fees, which within minutes was uploaded to Facebook etc.. for people to share.
This summary misses out about half of the piece (which was on PM, finbar).
According to the section Theresa May's grandstanding non-answer was designed to be uploaded and shared on social media as a generic anti-Labour soundbite. However it was in response to a grandstanding non-question from Jeremy Corbyn that was apparently also intended to be shared on social media as a generic anti-Tory/government soundbite.
Both of them are at it and grandstanding non-questions and non-answers seem to have been a staple of PMQs long before modern social media became a thing. Corbyn did initially try a different tack but it didn't appear to be particularly successful so he's gone back to the tried and tested tactic of slinging insults. That's the way to do it!
"You don’t remember what time/programme this was do you? I’d quite like to listen."
I heard it as well and IIRC it was on PM, @ about 17:40 ish.
"They do care that all these urchins and peasants are making ‘their’ streets look untidy. That doesn’t extend to any empathy or even a modicum of concern for them, of course."
To be honest I don't believe the majority of Tory voters even see a correlation between their votes and increase in homelessness, etc. I think a lot of Tory voters do so because
a. they've always done it
b. their family has always done it so why should they be any different.
editied to remove the shite formatting
I'm in the same boat as the OP, the cumulative weight of evidence is all pointing to one inescapable conclusion - It is time to stop reading the Guardian.
Personally this will be a hard step to take for various reasons. But the comical [literally] re-design could be the shove required.
FWIW, I'm apparently the first member of my family in five generations who has never voted Conservative!
"<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #444444;">Labour were in power during the banking crisis and as such had the choice of doing nothing or pumping enough money into the system to keep it afloat."</span>
Absolutely, I thought a lot about Blair and Brown and the economic crisis. I wouldn't try to work out which of the two was to blame for the bad any more than who was to blame for the good, but you can't blame ether of them for 9/11 or causing the credit crunch - that was a bunch of crooks in the US.
Thatcher was the step change, greed became socially acceptable and social responsibility reduced to the individual.
Blair simply built on it and now we have a brainwashed electorate that thinks victimising poor people is acceptable.
It took the best part of 40 years to get here, it usually takes three times the effort to fix something that is broken - so in 140 years it will all be dandy..
Garry_Lager has it - time to figure out a robust news and media avoidance strategy.
And oldmanmtb has the most depressing post of the day 🙁
Things were always going to get worse post financial crisis no matter who was in power.
One general point, just because you voted for a party that doesn't mean you actively endorse everything they do. So you can vote Tory and not be happy about rising homelesness, and similarly you could have voted Labour and been unhappy with the Iraq War. Thing is you have to determine, exactly how you weigh up the parties pros and cons and vote accordingly. If a party strays too far down a line then they generally get punished at the ballot box, and that's where Labour are now. I'm sure in time they'll get back in, as these things go in cycles.