without evidence you are little more than a troll tbh. please supply some evidence to back up your previous posts. ta
It's not just shooters..
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/rare-protected-osprey-nest-chopped-20507716
Probably anglers who are envious that Ospreys are better at catching fish. Tosspots.
without evidence you are little more than a troll tbh. please supply some evidence to back up your previous posts. ta
I posted all the info about the raptor group mentioned if you could be arsed to look at the thread for it.
There's as little evidence from the people claiming that they are being shot so I'll keep my open mind.
Contribute to the thread rather than troll me please I have no interest in what you think.
Probably anglers who are envious that Ospreys are better at catching fish. Tosspots.
Saldy this is likely. Total ****ers.
As bad as egg collectors.
Invercauld estate 19th march poisoned golden eagle. Police have examined the hare that has been shown to have been laced with poison.
Searches been carried out but no arrests made.
Looks like pesticides..
Hopefully they catch whoever laced the hare and they get properly punished and sacked.
No excuse for this at all.
When have anglers ever done anything like that?
Hopefully they catch whoever laced the hare and they get properly punished and sacked.
No excuse for this at all.
if the estates stopped protecting the criminals we might
We might what ?
The problem is passing these guys onto other places to placate the issuing of grants.
i.e "we've binned him" so don't punish us, but in reality he's passed to a mates estate "cause he's a good keeper"
We might be able to catch them if the estate owners and managers where not a part of it.
Not a chance.
I hate this happening, but poisoning that happens miles from anywhere at any time of day or night, carried out by anyone with half a brain, is never getting proved or pinned on anyone.
Anyone caught for this type of thing is either stupid, grassed up, or talks too much (stupid)
Thats because its condoned and the people are protected by the estates.
hence your " grassed up"
You surely mean the law abiding citizens should report what they know to the police? the fact that no one ever does shows that no one on the estates is a law abiding citizen.
why not have a three strikes (cases of poisoning) and you're out (license suspended for six months) rule? Might concentrate the mind somewhat? Followed by next three strikes and license suspended for a year and so on......
How about one strike? This is a criminal conspiracy and needs to be treated as such.
How would 'positive enforcement' work I wonder?
e.g. if you DON'T have a certain population of certain species appropriate to your estate habitat then you get a warning or something?
I know it's unreasonable to expect thriving populations of rarer species on every estate, but when I last rode through the Lammermuirs for instance it was striking that we didn't even see a single buzzard, which I thought would be a useful 'marker' species to demonstrate a lack of persecution on the estates.
How about one strike? This is a criminal conspiracy and needs to be treated as such.
Going by that argument, I as someone who'd quite happily see Grouse shooting gone could go and sacrifice a bird, and that estate loses it's licence.
That's never gonna fly (ahem)
How would ‘positive enforcement’ work I wonder?
e.g. if you DON’T have a certain population of certain species appropriate to your estate habitat then you get a warning or something?
I know it’s unreasonable to expect thriving populations of rarer species on every estate, but when I last rode through the Lammermuirs for instance it was striking that we didn’t even see a single buzzard, which I thought would be a useful ‘marker’ species to demonstrate a lack of persecution on the estates.
I guess the same way that most licensing works. The license holder has to demonstrate that they have all the right procedures / practices / infrastructure training etc in place but they can also be held accountable for anything that's going wrong unless they can demonstrate they've done everything they can. Sort of coming it from both sides. An estate that was a barren wasteland would need to prove that they were doing everything right, rather than looking to convict individual employees to prove wrongdoing.
Your local pub / taxi company / takeaway has to demonstrate they're fit to hold a license and then get pulled up if there are adverse reports against them. It's not beyond the wit of people to sort this out. The hunting/shooting/fishing brigade are less regulated than your local chippy and they'd like it to stay that way.
I don't think more regulation on its own solves a cultural issue, deeply embedded in local heritage (even if only a few short generations), issues of employment, land ownership and identity.
I do wonder if a much more reward for positive and proactive should be investigated. It is going to take a lot of effort to answer concerns in a positive, employment and income generating way, for this to start to change. Let's be honest, these estates are businesses. The moment you get paid a 'golden eagle is resident bonus', a 'big new walking path and bothy provided' grant, a 'salmon increased last tear' research grant, a 'wildlife manager and tour guide' stipend payment or a 'trainee re-wilding forest manager' apprenticeship, some of the more forward looking estates will engage and take up the offer. Particularly if the money is guaranteed somehow for 10 years or so and is better than what they earn currently.
None of this is thought through properly on my part - it is more ideas to suggest a positive engagement rather than a 'them and us' situation. Bad apples are bad apples - and we will struggle to root them all out without much help from the whole 'industry' around grouse moors and deer forests.
You surely mean the law abiding citizens should report what they know to the police? the fact that no one ever does shows that no one on the estates is a law abiding citizen.
By your logic everyone who works in a bad care home is equally culpable.
If someone is doing something they shouldn't then the guy in the other department is equally guilty.
That's bad logic, that shouldn't even need pointing out.
I do wonder if a much more reward for positive and proactive should be investigated. It is going to take a lot of effort to answer concerns in a positive, employment and income generating way, for this to start to change. Let’s be honest, these estates are businesses. The moment you get paid a ‘golden eagle is resident bonus’, a ‘big new walking path and bothy provided’ grant, a ‘salmon increased last tear’ research grant, a ‘wildlife manager and tour guide’ stipend payment or a ‘trainee re-wilding forest manager’ apprenticeship, some of the more forward looking estates will engage and take up the offer. Particularly if the money is guaranteed somehow for 10 years or so and is better than what they earn currently.
I like these suggestions, perhaps also some form of government assistance in marketing a new age of hunting estate management, rather than "blasted wilderness conveyor belt of deer/grouse" start pitching it as "highland wilderness experience hunting in truly wild surroundings etc. with the chance of spotting rare and indigenous wildlife etc". Would probably result in a reduced bag for the hunters, would fewer management practices just reduce the number of grouse each hunter takes home, or is there a risk of fruitless days on the moor and frustrated punters demanding money back?
13th. Mar lodge is an interesting case. IIRC its now in public hands of some sort but was sold with covenants that it has to remain a hunting shooting estate. they have moved to " walk up" shooting where bags are a few rather than driven shooting where bags are huge. If you want shooting to remain part of scotland then its a good model perhaps. Rather than put subsidy into the hands of large landowners tho I would prefer that money to be used to bring the land back into public ownership but the good landowners I have no issue with.
The land needs a use other than recreation or we turn the highlands into a theme park. Perhaps some of that could be wildlife management / land management.
Squirrelking - if they do not speak out when they know raptors are routinely killed then they are part of the criminal conspiracy - same as it would be in a care home. Remember this is not "one bad apple" nor is it "isolated cases" this is a criminal conspiracy covering much of the grouse estates.
Not reporting bad practices or worse in a care home would be an appalling dereliction of duty.
Indeed - and subject to licensing and criminal implications
We have a government that isn't interested in the scale of land reform required. They parked council/land value taxation several years ago despite promises to reform it. Their gardening wing has taken their eye off the ball too, focussing 8nstead on gender politics and effectively sidelining their most valuable asset in this regard because, you know, feelz over-rules science and discussion can't be allowed.
@scotroutes what the actual **** has this got to do with gender politics? You really have a chip on your shoulder about trans folk don't you?
I mention it due to the link to Andy Wightman does he have the same chip or do we share it?
Have we done this latest one yet? apologies if so.
Just in case anyone is still not convinced that this is a widespread criminal conspiracy note the list of all persecutions known to have happened in the Cairngorms national park
Note carbofuran is banned and has been for decades - its only use is to poison raptors and its illegal to hold.
2002
Feb: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Tomintoul (No prosecution)
Mar: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + 2 rabbit baits. Cromdale (No prosecution)
2003
Apr: 3 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + 2 grey partridge baits. Kingussie (No prosecution)
Jun: Attempted shooting of a hen harrier. Crannoch (Successful prosecution)
2004
May: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cuaich (No prosecution)
Nov: 1 x poisoned red kite (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
2005
Feb: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
Feb: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
Mar: 3 x poisoned buzzards, 1 x poisoned raven (Carbofuran). Crathie (No prosecution)
2006
Jan: 1 x poisoned raven (Carbofuran). Dulnain Bridge (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned raven (Mevinphos). Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned golden eagle (Carbofuran). Morven [corbett] (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned raven + 1 x poisoned common gull (Aldicarb) + egg bait. Glenbuchat (No prosecution)
May: egg bait (Aldicarb). Glenbuchat, Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x poisoned golden eagle (Carbofuran). Glenfeshie (No prosecution)
2007
Jan: 1 x poisoned red kite (Carbofuran). Glenshee (No prosecution)
Apr: Illegally set spring trap. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
May: Pole trap. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned red kite (Carbofuran). Tomintoul (No prosecution)
May: Illegally set spring trap. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit & hare baits. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Jul: 1 x poisoned raven (Carbofuran). Ballater (No prosecution)
Sep: 1 x shot buzzard. Newtonmore (No prosecution)
Sep: 1 x shot buzzard. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
2008
Jan: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Mar: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
2009
May: 2 x poisoned ravens (Mevinphos). Delnabo (No prosecution)
Jun: rabbit bait (Mevinphos). nr Tomintoul (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x shot buzzard. Nr Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x illegal crow trap. Nr Tomintoul (No prosecution)
2010
Apr: Pole trap. Nr Dalwhinnie (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x pole-trapped goshawk. Nr Dalwhinnie (No prosecution)
Jun: Illegally set spring trap on tree stump. Nr Dalwhinnie (No prosecution)
Sep: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Glenlochy (No prosecution)
Oct: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Nr Boat of Garten (No prosecution)
2011
Jan: 1 x shot buzzard. Nr Bridge of Brown (No prosecution)
Mar: 1 x poisoned golden eagle (Carbofuran). Glenbuchat (No prosecution)
Apr: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran & Aldicarb). Nr Bridge of Brown (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Glenbuchat, Strathdon (No prosecution)
May: 1 x shot short-eared owl, found stuffed under rock. Glenbuchat, Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x shot peregrine. Pass of Ballater (No prosecution)
Aug: grouse bait (Aldicarb). Glenlochy (No prosecution)
Sep: Satellite-tagged golden eagle ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
Nov: Satellite-tagged golden eagle ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
2012
Apr: 1 x shot short-eared owl. Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Apr: Peregrine nest site burnt out. Glenshee (No prosecution)
May: Buzzard nest shot out. Nr Ballater (No prosecution)
2013
Jan: White-tailed eagle nest tree felled. Invermark (No prosecution)
May: 1 x shot hen harrier. Glen Gairn (No prosecution)
May: Satellite-tagged golden eagle ‘disappears’. Glenbuchat, Strathdon
2014
Apr: Satellite-tagged white-tailed eagle ‘disappears’. Glenbuchat, Strathdon
May: Armed masked men shoot out a goshawk nest. Glen Nochty, Nr Strathdon (No prosecution)
2015
Sep: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Lad’ found dead, suspected shot. Newtonmore (No prosecution)
2016
May: 1 x shot goshawk. Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: Illegally set spring traps. Invercauld (No prosecution)
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Brian’ ‘disappears’. Kingussie
2017
Mar: Satellite-tagged golden eagle #338 ‘disappears’. Glenbuchat, Strathdon
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Calluna’ ‘disappears’. Ballater
2018
May: Satellite-tagged white-tailed eagle Blue T ‘disappears’. Ballater
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Athena’ ‘disappears’. Nr Grantown on Spey
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Margot’ ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
Sept: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Stelmaria’ ‘disappears’. Ballater
2019
April: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Marci’ ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
April: Four geese poisoned and Carbofuran bait found on an estate nr Kingussie (no prosecution)
August: Golden eagle photographed with a spring trap dangling from its foot, nr Crathie, Deeside
September: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Wildland 1 ‘disappears’ on a grouse moor nr Dalnaspidal
September: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Wildland 2 ‘disappears’ on a grouse moor at Invercauld
2020
April: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Hoolie ‘disappears’ on grouse moor nr Newtonmore
April: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Marlin ‘disappears’ on grouse moor nr Strathdon
April: Satellite-tagged white-tailed eagle found illegally poisoned on grouse moor in Strathdon.
2021
March: Poisoned golden eagle found on Invercauld Estate.
TJ, where was Chris Packham around the time of those killings?
Makes you think....
That there statement from Invercauld is bare faced cover-up.
"It's on our land, in an area we manage regularly, near to our access. But not ours governor."
I came across some Larsen traps the other day - these are live bird traps where a live bird is trapped inside and used as a lure to catch other birds. One had a carrion crow and the other a magpie. I didn't even know these were legal in the UK - had to Google it.
I was tempted to trash them, but getting there and back was on a track past a building owned by the estate with a camera, they'd know who I was.
There are thousands of crows here - plus rooks, jackdaws and ravens too but funnily enough no magpies - all to protect hundreds of captive bred pheasants and partridge. There are only a few red grouse and ptarmigan up on the moors as they've all been blasted to oblivion.
I did see a hen harrier a couple of times a month or so ago but not seen it again.
I did see a hen harrier a couple of times a month or so ago but not seen it again.
I saw one on Dava Moor near Lochindorb a couple of weeks ago,
Invercauld has an ignominious 3 appearances on that list
more greens at Holyrood should help this
I came across some Larsen traps the other day
Legal and licensed. Also very discriminate so easy to target only the pest species.
On some places crow traps are a real necessity as crows cause huge damage to silage stores.
It's basically a bird cage that allows you to dispatch crows quickly and in large numbers.
Best leave them alone as cows need fed, and silage waste costs a fortune to replace / buy in.
It would be interesting to see what killed the eagle at Invercauld as it was found next to a carcass so whatever it was must have been instant acting.
As far as I'm aware most modern pesticides don't kill instantly but I'm happy to be corrected.
Poor old Phil the greek fought for years to have poisonous pesticides banned. The same estates proven to have poisoned BoP would have fawned all over him at their shoots as well.
Really interesting listen on Radio Scotland Out of Doors this morning
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000vwyx
In part one, Helen Needham goes on a personal pilgrimage to find the source of the River Dee close to the top of Braeriach, with a little help from Nan Shepherd. And in part two, Mark Stephen and Euan McIlwraith visit the National Trust for Scotland's Mar Lodge Estate in Upper Deeside where they meet ecologist, Andrew Painting. Andrew has written about the estate in his book 'Regeneration - The Rescue of a Wild Land' and describes how their unique approach to land management could offer an example to other estates, encompassing both conservation and sporting interests.
Cheers Matt, his book looks interesting and worth a punt on the Kindle
A borders hunt manager has been let off Scot free despite video evidence of wrong doing. Judge said legislation was just to complicated.
Edit "The trial at Jedburgh Sheriff Court lasted two days before the residing sheriff delivered a not guilty verdict and also a stinging rebuke of the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 which he described as "difficult to interpret."
And therein lies the problem.
That's actually a really interesting move that the Cairngorms partnership folk and Invercauld have parted company.
Perhaps bad apples are tainting the rest and they don't like it...
So why are the larsen traps set on the edge of the grousemoor, miles from the nearest silage store?
So why are the larsen traps set on the edge of the grousemoor, miles from the nearest silage store?
Excellent question
That Cairngorms partnership statement is really interesting and hopefully a reflection of their good intentions.
On some places crow traps are a real necessity as crows cause huge damage to silage stores.
You would need hundreds of the traps to have any meaningful impact on the local corvid population. The problem is, there's a complete lack of natural predators. Can you imagine the impact that a few raptors and pine martens would have on the population?
But no, anything that 'threatens' the population of captive bred pheasants and partridge so a few toffs can turn up in their Range Rovers to blast their heads off in the name of "conservation" is just what the countryside needs.
So why are the larsen traps set on the edge of the grousemoor, miles from the nearest silage store?
I see these all over the place. Our local ones are around the pheasant woods and grouse moor edges. All are out of sight, I suspect many folk will not realise their use.
Do remember that Corvids can be awful to lambs - again I saw them near lambing fields around Loch Tay.
Most of them though are set around grouse moor areas in my experience, I would hazard a guess on the justification that corvids would attack grouse chicks? See below for the general licenses though. Interestingly grouse is not on the list of wild birds that can be protected. https://www.nature.scot/general-licences-birds-2021
I note that all larsen traps have to be registered - does this have a grid reference? If so, it would be interesting to compare licensed locations and hidden ones I only see as a hillwalker, hidden off the beaten track...
Overall information
