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Seems to me to be a tragic accident that everyone is exploiting for their agendas. Horrible.
Seems like lots of people exploiting the tragedy to blame people they already don't like, without any real facts being known yet. Faintly disgusting IMHO.
Not an accident a tragic incident that could've been avoided.
Quite right that questions are being asked and lessons learned.
There are plainly a number of roles that could be carried out by 50+ year old firemen - especially as we are hearing that there isn't enough being done on the prevention side.
There isn't, there's a few but hardly plenty.
I find the whole thing hugely disrespectful. The flames aren't even out yet and politicians are scoring points against each other and making snidey comments.
And don't get me started on the so called celebrities who stand outside their multi million pound homes telling us how angry they are and that people should be doing more 👿
RIP to those who didn't make it out and huge respect for the emergency services.
this may be of interest to some, gives an idea of how panels respond, note that these are composite panels rather than a rainscreen, but they aren't really that different in composition.
Northwind - Member
The pay freeze- ie real world pay cut- is an insult to them. Not sure how saying pay them better and resource them better is an insult. If "now is not the time" then how about 2 days ago:
https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2017/06/13/firefighters-call-immediate-end-pay-freeze
Or, how about last year when the inquiry was supposed to go ahead, but didn't? May's promising an enquiry but clearly "now is not the time", years ago was the time.
Get no argument from about the cuts and the negative impact on the fire service.
My point still remains though that there is no evidence that the cuts had any impact on this fire. Claims made on the day of the fire. It may be proven otherwise, but it was not the time or the place to jump to conclusions like that for political point scoring. Even the fire chiefs have been saying the same. They did also have a rant about the cuts but they made it clear that there's no evidence at this stage that cuts on the fire service had any part to play in this tragedy. The building went up in flames in a matter of minutes. They were there in a few minutes. 200 of them, 400, 800, twice the appliances or more. Doesn't matter, it was too late from the start.
The blame may lie with the council, maybe cuts there in that no investment in sprinklers, but it's far more likely the blame lies with the refurbishing company (speculation here). £1m was spent on that, so not sure "cuts" are to blame there. Incompetence more like. There are questions though on changes and relaxation of building and fire regulations.
At this stage though, we don't know. It's all speculation.
Meanwhile the fire men and women did an outstanding job and have themselves suffered and witnessed terrible things. Using them for political point scoring on the day of the fire is not on.
£1m was spent on that, so not sure "cuts" are to blame there. Incompetence more like
Using a number like that is dangerous, what exactly does it mean? To a lay man £1M sounds like alot of money, but is it? You could have a mineral fibre cored rainscreen and it would have cost vastly more for the materials. Was the job rushed and corners cut, what does that money cover, lifts, doors, rainscreen, etc? you really can't tell from a single number. Think how many Billions they are putting aside to refurb the houses of parliament.
Generally, rents accrued from social housing have to be ring-fenced and re-invested in the stock, so talk about the money spent on refurbishment isn't really evidence of anything other than the council or social housing provider doing what they are legally obliged to do.
and again at this stage pointing accusatory fingers at contractors, manufacturers of the materials, even the KCTMO is premature (although in the case of the KCTMO it does seem residents expressed concerns and were told to shut up). We don't know if anyone did anything wrong in this regard yet (but if they did, bring the full weight of the law upon them)
Until the inquest / fire investigation finds out what caused it and why it got so uncontrollable so fast, we don't know if corners were cut or regs sidestepped. What we do know is that experts (independently and at an inquest into another fire where 6 people died) regularly expressed concerns that regs and specs for fire safety were / are not appropriate, that they need review, and that successive governments have not done it. And to hear Sajid Javid wriggling out of it on the Today programme this morning using 'words' (what was actually said vs what was clearly meant by them - sound at all familiar?) made me punch my car radio repeatedly.
Pressed on why a coroner’s recommendation was not acted upon, Mr Javid claimed “all recommendations were actioned” and that the coroner “did not recommend new regulations”, merely a change to the “guidance.”The coroner’s report refers to updating The Building Regulations 2010 Approved Document B, which is the “statutory guidance” for builders and developers.
While it is technically called “guidance” in effect, it has effect in law.
This is certainly a very sad incident and questions should be asked and responded to appropriately. Clearly lessons will be learned and the cost of those lessons was a very high price.
It seems at the moment as if the cladding was a contributing factor and that the fire issues relating to the cladding were known about (but how widely and by whom we don't know). Was a decision made to use this in preference to something less combustible made with price and known implications in mind - I very much doubt it - but that is a question that needs to be asked and answered.
Who makes the cladding and why are they still selling it for use in high rise or other buildings?
Should sprinkler systems should also be added to blocks of more than x stories?!?
This is a terrible incident but anger as is being stirred by the press will not fix this. Further investment in the housing stock by local authorities to meet as yet to be published fire safety legislation may reduce the likelihood of further tragedy.
I saw on the news a flat with identical cladding fitted by the same company. What I hadn't realised before this is the new windows are moved outwards flush with the outside face of the cladding effectively putting the cladding inside of the flat.
The flat had an extra wide plastic internal window board capping the extra width of the wall created by the cladding and extra wide plasterboard reveals around the inside of the window. Now I take it that what is effectively the end grain of the cladding around the windows is capped with som sort of fire stop, if not it's no surprise that the fire found its way easily in to the interior of people's flats from the blazing outsides.
Deleted to avoid the sack 😉
I think this fire will have a far greater reaching impact on how we manage fire safety in the UK than any previous major fire/catastrophe, such as Bradford Football Ground and Kings Cross.
I say this partly because it has happened in the internet age. The public no longer have no choice but to wait to receive their information about the incident from newspapers or the BBC, whose journalists lack the technical knowledge to be able to comment themselves and who will be dependent on whichever (differing) expert they speak to, and who also are automatically biased towards sensationalism, finding a scapegoat and partisan political point scoring. The ability to share information and knowledge via the internet means that it's much harder for politicians and experts to 'control the narrative' and to avoid possibly uncomfortable facts.
This and the sheer scale of loss of life means that politicians will be more willing and able with public support (and be more forced) to consider making some very difficult but very worthwhile changes to how we manage fire safety. For example, it's fairly easy to change Approved Document B and make new requirements about cladding materials, but if a key problem is builders and others breaching regulations, then that is going to be a lot harder to address because we need to stop it happening rather than relying on the threat of possible prosecution only if later on there is a fire and it's discovered that the contractor broke the rules. Substantially reducing the frequency and likelihood of breaches occurring in the first place would probably mean a major increase in expenditure on building control inspections. Similarly I think this event could/should result in greater resources for the Fire and Rescue Authorities to undertake their existing enforcement role. That might mean that they spent much more time on an inspection, reviewing a building's fire safety in much greater detail than before (e.g. witnessing tests of the fire alarm or sprinkler system etc.).
The other benefit of the internet is that by sharing knowledge and experience, everyone can become better informed, whether they are the occupant of a flat, a builder, a property manager or whatever.
If breaches of the regulations do prove to have been a major factor at Grenfell Tower, I would point out that this is not something particular to social housing for the less well off (counter to the narrative being spun by some that the fire would not have happened if the people living in Grenfell Tower were well off). [url= http://asfp.org.uk/webdocs/West%20Midlands%20Seminar%202014/West%20Midlands%20Presentations%203.pdf ]This link[/url] may not work, but it includes a presentation by a specialist fire contractor, Sharpfibre, detailing the very poor quality fire stopping they were called in to remediate at an upmarket modern block of flats in London. It's the sort of thing that needs to be disseminated much more widely, because it helps everyone to know what good practice looks like, and to spot what is likely to be bad practice.
[quote=firestarter ]Deleted to avoid the sack
its ok I have the screen grab 😉 . I see @crsipymick has deleted his twitter account, I do hope he wasn't getting lent on. 😐
fire starter , re your post , cuts to life saving services do kill , as you pointed out , and for you to be fearful of recrimination for pointing this out is also indicative of the fear and loathing that permeates through our society after all these years of austerity .
there used to be a saying that you judge a society on the value they put on life .........
successive govts have been doing that , with money being the overriding factor to all aspects of life , it's been rejected at the ballot box last week , and will be overwhelmingly next time so that a new dawn can begin , where people come before profit , and we value all life above money .
Lol bruneep. Mick has no doubt been lent on I know a couple of reps that have. And rudebwoy your right at the moment money rules the roost. Hopefully that will change
hooli - Member
I find the whole thing hugely disrespectful. The flames aren't even out yet and politicians are scoring points against each other and making snidey comments...
As they should be. This is a major scandal with more lives lost than any terrorist activity.
I don't care if the politicians are eviscerating each other, the more the merrier, and if those with responsibility don't resign then they need to be relentlessly pushed into political oblivion.
Maybe next time safety is brought up the attitude of the budget cutting politician in charge won't be to tell objectors to get stuffed or threaten legal action. (I'm speaking generally, not specifically)
I'm also a bit uncomfortable with some of the blame-throwing and jumping to conclusions that's been happening on the web, including from mainstream news outlets.
For example this...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shameless-tory-council-leader-blames-10631544
I have a visceral hatred of Tories, but even I think it's unfair to fixate on sprinklers and savage him like that.
There are plainly a number of roles that could be carried out by 50+ year old firemen - especially as we are hearing that there isn't enough being done on the prevention side.
I am a firefighter and a rep for my Union, the FBU. When we discussed the possibility of capability dismissals with management they admitted that they do not have one single position to move operational staff in to if they are unable to continue on the front line.
meanwhile the mail and the sun have a moral limbo dancing competition with the mail blaming a man whose fridge they say started the fire and the sun sending a reporter to the hospital posing as a victim's relative in order to get a story !!!!!
😯the sun sending a reporter to the hospital posing as a victim's relative in order to get a story !!!!!
I am a firefighter and a rep for my Union, the FBU. When we discussed the possibility of capability dismissals with management they admitted that they do not have one single position to move operational staff in to if they are unable to continue on the front line.
It's a difficult issue, but the scaffolder, roofer etc don't have access to those roles either, the armed forces have done more due to the operational casualties but plenty leave due to injury etc
In my line of work the churn on the team is high and people get asked to leave with little compassion if they aren't needed
The real heartless places these days are call centres, the management of staff is often brutal
No sure what is the right answer for the blue light services, maybe more work on the limited time that people will be able to serve at the front line and preparation and resettlement strategies for those who don't go to the retirement age
It's a difficult issue, but the scaffolder, roofer etc don't have access to those roles either, the armed forces have done more due to the operational casualties but plenty leave due to injury etc
'Tis true, i left the army after dislocating knee badly playing rugby against the navy, no support at all really. Plus the promises that training and qualifications would be valid of civvy street is bo**acks too.
But that doesn't lessen my feeling that they cannot expect firefighters to play an active front line role at 60 years of age, is there not roles that could be made in fire prevention training, inspecting buildings such as these etc? Seems daft if front line firefighters are undertaking building inspections?
What grates the most is the changing of of the agreements we signed. I pay 14.2 percent of my wage for my pension, and now have 20 years built up. But now all of a sudden not only do they want us to pay more and get less I've to work another extra ten years. Maybe I should ring the mortgage company and tell them I'm paying less a month for less time and see how I get on
is there not roles that could be made in fire prevention training, inspecting buildings such as these etc? Seems daft if front line firefighters are undertaking building inspections?
I agree.
Alternatively, the skills they gain while fighting fires should transferable to something else. Obviously not the physical skills, but mental/emotional ones - working under extreme pressure, team work/leadership stuff. That kind of thing.
They did also have a rant about the cuts but they made it clear that there's no evidence at this stage that cuts on the fire service had any part to play in this tragedy.
Fortunately the rest of London appears to have had a quiet night for the FB on the evening of the fire. Otherwise we would know there was a funding crisis causing deaths. That may be luck or it may be good management no doubt the enquiry will have the full facts.
fk its apparently true
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital
What grates the most is the changing of of the agreements we signed. I pay 14.2 percent of my wage for my pension, and now have 20 years built up. But now all of a sudden not only do they want us to pay more and get less I've to work another extra ten years. Maybe I should ring the mortgage company and tell them I'm paying less a month for less time and see how I get on
Yep, 18 years here. At least Labour ring fenced those in the job already when they shafted us.
It's a difficult issue, but the scaffolder, roofer etc don't have access to those roles either, the armed forces have done more due to the operational casualties but plenty leave due to injury etc
Difference here is that there used to be positions but they went to save money.
is there not roles that could be made in fire prevention training, inspecting buildings such as these etc? Seems daft if front line firefighters are undertaking building inspections?
Training is usually done by private firms. Fire safety is done by a mixture of more senior ranks and civvy staff on 18k. No place for the station based staff to go.
I'm not a Royalist but nice to see the queen has showed her respect and talked to the people involved
Kind of sticks 2 fingers up at Mrs May really 😆
fk its apparently true
The Scum is absolute fing disgrace......
local council have issued this:
Aberdeen City Council has reassured tenants living in multi-storey buildings that over-cladding is non-flammable and of a “very high standard”.
They have also stressed that the over-cladding on its buildings is not the same kind that appears to have been used at Grenfell Tower, London.
The council’s tower blocks have weekly checks, and they are checked every two months by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS). Also, there is emergency lighting, smoke detectors, and information on every floor about evacuation procedures.
All of the over-cladding is made of the following materials:
1) Insulation made of stone fibres which is non-flammable and is hard-up against the concrete wall. It is 125mm thick and is a rigid material;
2) Solid façade sheets made of a fibreglass reinforced polymer which is non-flammable;
3) Cavity barriers at each party floor and party wall, and around each window. These barriers enclose any fire so as to prevent the risk of it spreading from flat to flat, and prevent it spreading within the over-cladding. These cavity barriers are made of both the previously-mentioned stone fibre insulation (around the windows and at the party walls) and also intumescent (a material which expands when heated) seals and steel at the party floors. The intumescent steel fire stop which, when it heats up, expands to block any fire.
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Reports of protestors 'storming' the Kensington and Chelsea town hall
The whole thing is getting worse and more anger-inducing by the second.
The decision to use less safe cladding was a conscious one:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors ]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors[/url]
The death toll may well rise to over a hundred.
The Sun and Mail are acting appallingly:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jun/16/mail-online-story-about-alleged-cause-of-grenfell-fire-prompts-more-than-1100-complaints ]https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jun/16/mail-online-story-about-alleged-cause-of-grenfell-fire-prompts-more-than-1100-complaints[/url]
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital ]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital[/url]
Feels a bit like Hillsborough all over again in some regards only this time it won't take 25 years to get to the truth. Governments have fallen over less serious things than this.
It's a damning indictment of this country in its current state.
Wouldn't it be nice if people started to get really sick of these appalling rags?
I'd like to say they will.
But they don't seem to.
Used to be an RBKC employee.
A few years ago, they merged with Fulham and Hammersmith, and Westminster councils.
Becoming the tri borough.
The aim was to cut costs.a lot of RBKC employées left or were made redundant.
Ooooh
Whole world knows this is a problem
Ex K&C tenant mo employee talking about cuts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5943dad2e4b0e782061ba31f%26Former%20KCTMO%20employee%3A%20Not%20surprised%20something%20happened%26&ns_fee=0#post_5943dad2e4b0e782061ba31f
Unsubstantiated rumour alert - I have a friend who works as a counsellor in London and went to offer her services free of charge.
She posted on FB today that she and other volunteers were asked to produce their licences, apparently because someone from the media had pretended to be a counsellor to get an interview.
This would make me ashamed to be a journalist but I don't recognise the hate-mongers who work for rags like the Sun and Mail as brethren in any way. Instead it makes me sad that so many people read these disgusting publications.
I can't verify how true this is but my S/O told me about the Victoria Derbyshire bit earlier today and now this has appeared in my Google news feed.
If it is true.. well I'm not sure what to say..
I predict a riot unfortunately.
Does seem a worrying possibility over the weekend.
Hot, dry weather won't help.
re: my above post
I am seeing that a lot of new sites are saying they have not been asked not to report and there is no D-notice. If the above post is incorrect, it was not my intention to spread so called fake news. Just reporting what came into my Google news feed.
Would be sadly ironic, the Tories coming to power was marked by a riot, surely this would mark the end