[Closed] Greek election - extreme left won

teamhurtmore - Member
Blimey Ernie's back - where have you been? I wondered what had happened to you.

????? ?????? ??? ????

DrJ - Member

mbarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Yes, Greeks fallng short of the brain juice. What's the minimum wage for a shop keeper, a farmer, a fisherman, a shepherd? Aren't you embarrassed to spout such moronic drivel?

By Zeus! Are you saying they are all of self-employed? They have that many shop keepers, farmers, fishermen and shepherds? 😯

Next time I shall call my Greek friends 'peasant' to see how they react ... I bet the opening sentence of their reply will be "... ?????? ...". Also imagine if I call them goat herders ... 😆

Aren't you slightly exaggerating? I mean even my Greek friends are not shop keepers, farmers or fishermen let alone shepherds?

Nahhh ... you are not as good as the Greek in arguments. 😆

teamhurtmore - Member

But the simple, Greeks are lazy stereotype is not accurate.

If that is not the case then there can only be two possibilities:

1. Lack brain juice that equate less return which most argue is not the case.

2. Too much brain juice that encourage exploitation, yes?

😯

Andy R - Member

Edit - re. this minimum wage stuff. If you need the money then you have to take what's offered. The wife of a good friend of mine worked all summer, seven days a week in a taverna from 6pm until they closed (which might be 1-2am in August) for €4 an hour. Obviously short on "brain juice" - much like me then.

No, they just paid Mrs/you the equivalent in Peso ... 😆

In not following this, but is Ernie Jamie's other login or what?

bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer ... that's how good they are.

You're sailing close to racism there, I would say.

codybrennan - Member

bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer ... that's how good they are.

You're sailing close to racism there, I would say.

😯 In what sense? Seriously.

Maybe I'm just cynical about any stats produced from Greece but 2024 hours on average per worker there seems pretty unlikely to me.

In assuming that there's an innate characteristic of a race (nation, actually) .

codybrennan - Member

In assuming that there's an innate characteristic of a race (nation, actually) .

I see.

What if I say they are highly intelligent for their own good? Or far more intelligent than other EU nations for their own benefits? Or a nation that miscalculated their own abilities? Would that be inappropriate?

😯

</leaves thread>

codybrennan - Member
</leaves thread>

😯

chewkw - Member

No, they just paid Mrs/you the equivalent in Peso ...

You've lost me there - who was talking about "me" anyway?

And I do have Greek friends who are shopkeepers, shepherds and farmers - same as I do here.

...2024 hours on average per worker there seems pretty unlikely to me.

Perhaps the statistical information provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has been tainted to provide a "pro-Greek" bias, while simultaneously suggesting that the Germans are among the most workshy and lazy of any industrialised country?

The Washington Post has enthusiastically accepted the OECD figures publishing the above graph and an article to accompany it:

[url= http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/16/greeks-work-harder-than-germans-who-knew/ ]Greeks work harder than Germans. Who knew?[/url]

However an anonymous punter on some mountain bike forum who apparently has been to [i]"Greece and Islands several times"[/i] and has personally witnessed that Greeks [i]"always seem to be sitting around drinking coffee in the coffee shops"[/i] is able to put a different perspective on the issue.

Take your choice.

🙂

Can we trade chewkw's standard drivel for codybrennan, please? So very tedious.

Andy R - Member
You've lost me there - who was talking about "me" anyway?

And I do have Greek friends who are shopkeepers, shepherds and farmers - same as I do here.

I mean the pay is as low if not the same wage rate as in 3rd/developing world pay. 🙄 How can that be in EU that is my "hint" ...

The ones I know are ship captain, EU bureaucrat, professor, hotelier, some other intellectual types and would quickly play down their nation as a nation of self employed. Especially, the ones you mentioned. They would swear at me if I say that, seriously.

😯

I mean the pay is as low if not the same wage rate as in 3rd/developing world pay. How can that be in EU that is my "hint" ...

The ones I know are ship captain, EU bureaucrat, professor, hotelier, some other intellectual types and would quickly play down their nation as a nation of self employed.

But farmers, shepherds, fishermen, builders, village shopkeepers, taxi drivers etc [b]are[/b] frequently self-employed, whether that's in Greece, in Britain or pretty much anywhere else that I can think of.

I suppose that your "intellectual types" might well have a disparaging view of people like that, but then I know some people here who have much the same attitude.
They're not my friends though, nor will they ever be.

erhaps the statistical information provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has been tainted to provide a "pro-Greek" bias, while simultaneously suggesting that the Germans are among the most workshy and lazy of any industrialised country?

Every other stat that came out of Greece appears to be tainted so I don't know enough about where this one came from to know if it's also suspect. OECD aren't likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

There is another measure of working hours used across the EU and produced by Eurostat. From it the Greek working hours look pretty typical e.g. for a full-time worker it shows an average of 40.7 hours per working week, which compares to 40.6 for Germany and 42.4 for the UK.

The OECD and Eurostat numbers might reconcile based on factors like how holidays are accounted and what happens with 2nd jobs - but based on those it does make the huge difference between Germany and Greece look unlikely.

Welcome back indeed to @ernie. Given the Labour Party and the government of Hollande aren't left enough for him it's fitting he's back to champion Syriza's cause.

Anti-austerity is very popular as many voters want the ability to walk away from past debts to not pay the price for past excess, to effectively get something for nothing. Of course people in other countries want some of that. This amused me this morning.

[img] [/img]

The EU and the IMF want their money back, the bailout was exactly that with terms and conditions. The tax payers of the eurozone lead by Germany have no interest in paying for excesses of the Greeks via debt write-off.

OECD aren't likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

Unlike people who have been to Greece and Islands several times and have hung around coffee shops taking note of the situation ?

The difference in the figures provided by OECD for hours worked annually in Greece and Germany is huge, 2,034 to 1,397, if the conclusion is false, ie, Germans actually work more hours annually than the Greeks (as someone who hangs around a Greek and German coffee shops might have noticed) then this represents a staggering failure by the OECD whose brief in a very large part requires it to provide reliable statical information concerning economic activity of different nations.

Presumably not only the figures released by the OECD for Greece are unreliable but also the ones for Germany which places the Germans second from the bottom in terms of hours worked......did the Germans exaggerate how little they work ? Or are they just not very good at providing statistics ?

As I say, you have a choice - by all means believe the myth of sudden Greek "laziness" if it helps you to simply and easily understand the causes of the Greek economic crises.

Choose the lazy and uncomplicated explanation if you find that easier 🙂

I think it's easier to see the Germans being far more efficient and productive, it's productivity which really matters.

I would treat any statistics coming out of Greece whether compiled by the OECD or otherwise with a very large pinch of salt. Same as the point about the very high levels of self employed, it doesn't demonstrate entrepreneurialism it's a symptom of tax avoidance.

Hi Ernie *waves*

Arguing about comparative working hours is all pretty pointless really. We are where we are. How we got here is academic. Though the words 'single currency' should suffice.

The point is that In one corner we've the newly elected Greek government who have only one mandate. To renegotiate the terms of the bailout. Or magic away their debts. In the other corner we've got the German electorate, who want their billions back. Behind them, in Brussels, is the real power in Europe who simply can't countenance any shift in policy to Greece, because of the precedent it will set. They just cannot let that happen! Under any circumstances!

So the aims of the two are totally incompatible, and neither can compromise. So there is no good outcome . Theres not even a least worst option really. Not if you're Greek anyway. They're ****ed! Well and truly! I suspect they're in for one hell of a reality check once the initial post-election euphoria has passed. Which should be sometime about...... now!

What happens after the new saviours fail to deliver? Which they surely will. Who knows?

Welcome to the next exciting instalment of the Eurofarce economic roller-coaster money-pit! Brought to you by the usual clueless, monumentally incompetent suspects in Brussels

Anti-austerity is very popular as many voters want the ability to walk away from past debts to not pay the price for past excess, to effectively get something for nothing.

Here you go again with your blaming the victim. How many times does it have to pointed out that the debts that are currently being shouldered by the Greek people, and all the horrific consequences of them have been forced on them through no choice of their own, while the people who created the situation through their own corruption and greed have escaped scot free.

jambalaya - Member

to effectively get something for nothing

Or to stop paying for the something that someone else got.

No no no no ! The benefits of all this borrowing were the Greek people, rank and file ordinary people. That's exactly the point. It is their responsibility.

Did anyone see Channel 4 News, Peter Snow interviewing the expected to be finance minister. Syriza the money had "gone down the drain" and Peter Snow pointed out, "yes its gone down your drain". It's the Greeks who have spent it.

jambalaya - Member

No no no no !

I really hope you were stamping your feet when you typed that. Jambalaya Bott.

Most of the bailout money has gone servicing debts. Doesn't it make more sense to rebuild and reform the economy so they can pay their own debts rather than saying it's 'bailing out' but actually tipping most of the water back in the boat?

Presumably not only the figures released by the OECD for Greece are unreliable but also the ones for Germany which places the Germans second from the bottom in terms of hours worked......did the Germans exaggerate how little they work ? Or are they just not very good at providing statistics?

Which is exactly the problem. You want to latch onto the one statistic you found which shows the Greeks as the hardest working in Europe - however that's just one statistic for a country and organisation that we know the statistics were fiddled with. What I'm saying is that there doesn't appear to be anything to back up the statistics you used (on Greece or Germany) and in fact other statistics cast doubt on the ones you're using.

If you want to continue on with your argument then that's of course fine - but it's typical conspiracy theory nutter behaviour to pick up one stat or piece of info that happens to support your theory then run with it.

I've never been to Greece so have no axe to grind one way or the other on how hard working they are. I have lived and worked in Germany (and in other European countries) though and those OECD stats doesn't seem to match what I was seeing. I know nothing about what the OECD's agenda is or how they get their data - although I did notice that the info for working hours didn't have a consistent source for all the countries included.

No no no no ! The benefits of all this borrowing were the Greek people, rank and file ordinary people. That's exactly the point. It is their responsibility.

You really have a warped view on the world don't you. I accept that some ordinary people benefited. But as I've said repeatedly, they weren't ever given an alternative option or a choice. You criticise them for being irresponsible for accepting the 'benefits', but there was no mechanism for them not to, and no reason for them to think it was necessary because the politicians, the very same people whom you now support, were telling them that it was all ok and there was nothing to worry about. So in any rational or objective appraisal, you can't say that the people themselves were responsible.

Apologies if this has already been covered in this thread, but with such high unemployment in Greece, how come we haven't seen more young Greek workers appearing in the UK?

I know a few.

jambalaya - Member

No no no no ! The benefits of all this borrowing were the Greek people, rank and file ordinary people. That's exactly the point. It is their responsibility.

[i]Especially[/i] the ones that weren't born.

Or the ones of working age who have never claimed benefits or (obviously) pension.

dazh - Member
Here you go again with your blaming the victim. How many times does it have to pointed out that the debts that are currently being shouldered by the Greek people, and all the horrific consequences of them have been forced on them through no choice of their own, while the people who created the situation through their own corruption and greed have escaped scot free.

It doesn't matter how many times, it's whether this is accurate. The consequences are not the debt per se (jambas is correct on the positive side of that), they are (1) the unsustainable levels of debt and the policies required to deal with this ie austerity and (2) locking yourself into a fixed exchange rate - massive internal wage deflation and/or unemployment. The two together create immense pain that unites the (far) left and right.

Of course, the solution that the Greeks won't and have voted for is a pipe dream and cannot be delivered. Sadly....

Or to stop paying for the something that someone else got.

You really have a warped view on the world don't you.

On a separate note it’s startling to see the anti German stance of Syriza, their leader describing Germany as being the "Fourth Reich" and making the point of departing from tradition in not laying a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier but placing one at a memorial for 200 communists murdered by the Germans in WW2. A deliberate positioning of Syriza and Greece against the German oppressor. Very dangerous.

jambalaya - Member
@dazh, I say again its strange eh how my view is absolutely consistent with that of governments around Europe who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations ?

[img] [/img]

Well they voted Tony Blair a peace envoy so

he { tony Blair] was officially confirmed as Middle East envoy for the United Nations, European Union, United States, and Russia

There you go that must be right and the will of the voters.
Its still an appeal to authority - why are you using a fallacious argument to prove your point?

who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations

Is there even an EU govt with 50% of the votes cast never mind the electorate?

FWIW I think we would all agree the EU is considerably keener on integration than the population.

I say again its strange eh how my view is absolutely consistent with that of governments around Europe who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations

Like I said, it's a warped view. Considering the events of the last 30-odd years I think you'd struggle to claim that western governments represent the views of their populations. I'm no conspiracist, but you seem to have a naive, and blind faith in the probity, integrity and motivations of the people and institutions who govern us.

binners - Member

Hi Ernie *waves*

Arguing about comparative working hours is all pretty pointless really. We are where we are. How we got here is academic. Though the words 'single currency' should suffice.

Well of course. Someone suggested that the Greeks spent all their time in coffee shops and that it was no wonder Greece was "bust".

Quite why the Greeks should suddenly have become lazy at the same time as the single currency was introduced wasn't explained.

I suggested that there was no evidence that the Greeks worked any less hard than anyone else and that the introduction of the Euro had much more to do with their financial woes.

Although bizarrely epicsteve accuses me of, quote : [i]"typical conspiracy theory nutter behaviour"[/i] for suggesting such a thing 🙂

who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations

@ernie, yes the introduction of the euro allowed Greece to borrow in a way which was impossible before. It's the reason Greece wants to stay in the euro because if they are not they will have very little borrowing ability.

All a bit tongue in cheek from me posting this but here is the famous open letter the tabloid "Bild" published/sent to the Greek PM

[i]Dear prime minister,

If you're reading this, you've entered a country different from yours. You're in Germany.

Here, people work until they are 67 and there is no 14th-month salary for civil servants. Here, nobody needs to pay a €1,000 bribe to get a hospital bed in time.

Our petrol stations have cash registers, taxi drivers give receipts and farmers don't swindle EU subsidies with millions of non-existent olive trees.

Germany also has high debts but we can settle them. That's because we get up early and work all day.

We want to be friends with the Greeks. That's why since joining the euro, Germany has given your country €50bn.[/i]

I didn't see this before, Bild published another letter 2 years ago in Greek which seems prescient. I wonder what they are saying today.

[i]Dear Greeks,

You are a proud people, a proud nation. Sunday you have yet another set of elections. You say: We're free. Bild says: It's in your hands. There is a difference.

If you did not want our billions, it would have been fine by us for you to vote for any leftists or rightist clown you wanted. But for over two years now, the situation is like this:

Your ATMs continue to give you euros, only because we put them there, the Germans and the other nations that have the euro. Yet you still, calls us Nazis, which we do not fine funny. But anyway.

But let's be clear on this: If the elections are won by parties that want to put an end to austerity and reform, breaching every agreement, we will stop paying.

The agreement was: you fix your country and meanwhile we will help you. If you do not want this anymore, then we do not want it either.

It's in your hands. You have elections Sunday. But you have no options. You will choose between painful logic and complete disaster. And we are very much afraid that you don't get that yet.

Yours in friendship, Your Bild.[/i]

[url= http://www.novinite.com/articles/140391/German+Tabloid+Issues+Insulting+Election+Warning+to+Greece ]Link: Bild publishes insulting letter to Greek voters[/url]

I think the Greeks are totally entitled to vote for a party that will end austerity measures. The problem is they probably believe they will continue to get money no-strings. They may, but it's a pretty ballsy bluff to try.

Surely the Germans of all people should be aware of the danger of forcing an impoverished country to pay off debts it can't afford? It didn't work out too well in the 1930's.

yes the introduction of the euro allowed Greece to borrow in a way which was impossible before.

And who was it doing the lending? The Germans have to accept some/a lot of responsibility for this. It was they who allowed them to enter the Euro on a fraudulent basis. At the very least they didn't conduct proper due diligence, more likely they knew full well they were cooking the books. It was German banks doing the lending, and German industry who then benefited from the resultant consumer spending spree. It was the German govt who vetoed mechanisms which would have relieved the pressure on ailing economies early in the crisis, it was Germany who vetoed any move to offer joint euro-wide debt and bank guarantees, and it was Germany who refused to allow ECB support for ailing euro economies. Is it any wonder some in Greece are now comparing Germany to the 4th Reich?

Every other stat that came out of Greece appears to be tainted so I don't know enough about where this one came from to know if it's also suspect. OECD aren't likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

Fair enough Lets just continue on the basis of the observations of someone who once went to Greece and saw someone in a cafe. Or someone who didn't go to Greece but heard about it from someone else. I'm sure that will be informative.

I didn't have Ernie down as a zerohedge reader, but good points also discussed here:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-26/lazy-greeks-fault-these-two-charts-suggest-otherwise

Atlaz, indeed the euphoria will be short lived. Greece needs more money, soon

DrJ - what happened go previous German debt!?!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/economic-historian-germany-was-biggest-debt-transgressor-of-20th-century-a-769703.html