[Closed] Greek election - extreme left won

The lady hairdresser retired at 50 on 90% of her pension as that business is classified as dangerous

You never answered my earlier question about whether you expect ordinary people to reject these generous salaries and pensions out of sense of social responsibility. Of course it's ridiculous that a hair dresser can retire at 50 on 90% of her final salary, but do you blame the poor hair dresser for buying the snake oil or the con-artist selling it? It's fraud, plain and simple, willingly executed by people in powerful positions so that they could enrich themselves and their friends. And as for the people 'voting them in', it's not like they had a viable alternative is it? Until now Greece was a two party system where both parties were in on the fraud. Now there is an alternative, and the people have chosen it so presumably you'll be celebrating?

as I understood it greek pensions had been cut by 50%, sounds like a slash to me, regardless of how out of kilter it may have been in the first place

I know that the Greeks were getting assistance in [s]cooking the books[/s] completing their accounts from that [s]bunch of crooks[/s] bastion of probity and integrity - Goldman Sachs* - but surely to god the powers that be in Brussels must have had some inkling of what was going on? Yet they still kept the money taps turned on?

Or if they didn't know what was going on, it does beg the question, why the hell not?

* I reckon we can probably guess if anyone there has been held to account?

I imagine the accountants at goldman sachs swooped in and picked up a few islands on the cheap when it all wqent titsup

as I understood it greek pensions had been cut by 50%, sounds like a slash to me, regardless of how out of kilter it may have been in the first place

This is an old piece from Michael Lewis - 2010 - but it's worth a read. The Greek railway is so expensive and inefficient it would be cheaper (in theory) to just pay for everyone to get a taxi. I don't know how many government workers are now at food banks but they have certainly benefitted

These old chestnuts just get trotted out, exaggerated, and trotted out again. There's really no point in trying to discuss something if these cliches are what inform your opinion.

@dazh

I hope you're a troll.

The old Greek government were playing fast and loose with borrowed money but the Greek people kept voting them in to do it!....their welfare state was frankly ridiculous, early retirement was the norm, tax evasion was rife...but yeah, the electorate had nothing to do with it!

You never answered my earlier question about whether you expect ordinary people to reject these generous salaries and pensions out of sense of social responsibility.

FWIW and tbc (again for those who misrepresent) - I am pro Europe and the four pillars that lie at its heart. I am generally anti fixed exchange rates and especially where they are applied to regions that do not satisfy the conditions for an optimum currency area. Hence, for me, the € is an unsustainable folly.

The Europe project started well, then abandoned the pillars that support it and the structures it introduced. Like any house of sand, the results are inevitable. The only uncertainty is the timeline.

Binners I totally agree that those in Brussels and elsewhere knew pretty much exactly what was going on.

Fair enough, but I still won't feel sorry for those who've not paid tax, and can retire at 50 on what is still a good government pension.

Looking forward to seeing your evidence for those claims. Do you know what public sector pensions are in Greece? What is the retirement age in Greece? Or are you just cutting and pasting from the Daily Mail?

Looking forward to seeing your evidence for those claims. Do you know what public sector pensions are in Greece? What is the retirement age in Greece? Or are you just cutting and pasting from the Daily Mail?

Before JY gets in and points it out, I couldn't agree with you more THM. I'm also pro-Europe, thought not in its present anti-democratic guise. Its completely lost its way, and is now being held hostage by ideologies hell bent on a federal superstate (formed to represent the interests of them and their mates), no matter what the cost to its citizens.

But the single currency was a ridiculous idea from the outset, that was never ever going to work. It still isn't going to work, and the only question now is how much much damage it will do to a sustainable European economy before it is inevitably abandoned. Its when, not if. Its been a disaster, and will only get worse. But those behind it refuse to accept all the evidence of their continued folly.

Gordon Brown's legacy is pretty grim, but one thing he needs some credit for is being determined to keep us out of the car crash that is the Euro. Because if we'd been in it, we'd be well and truly screwed right now!

Forget the public sector, check out the annual reports of major Greek Banks and Corporates and see how many pension schemes are funded!!!

@Dr J, I used to work with/for Eleanor Amrosiadou she gave me her view on the Greek economy and how things actually worked. Like most wealthy Greeks she chose to live and work elsewhere as she couldn't stand it. A lot of my viewpont was founded on conversations with her back in the mid 90's. The Greeks used to boast about how they had the most entrepreneurial economy due to the high numbers of self employed but the reality is that being self employed is the best way to swerve taxes. The Channel 4 programme featured a doctor too. See my earlier post about my friend, he was asked to pay a bribe, he's a stubborn so and so and has he money so he paid the higher amount and made sure he got receipts. This was a government employee asking for the money btw. Post the crises the Greeks introduced taxes collected via utility bills as other forms of tax collection are too easily avoided. As others have posted combined this with irrational levels of government spending on welfare and pensions and you have the recipe for the disaster that is Greece today.

The figure of 53 years old as an average retirement age is being bandied about. So much so, that it is has become folk-fact. It originates from a lazy comment on the New York Times website. It was then repeated by Fox News and printed in other publications. Greek civil servants have the option to retire after 17.5 years of service, but this is on half benefits. The figure of 53 is a misinformed conflation of the number of people who choose to do this (in most cases to go on to different careers) and those who stay in public service until their full entitlement becomes available.

Looking at Eurostat’s data from 2005 the average age of exit from the labour force in Greece (indicated in the graph below as EL for Ellas) was 61.7; higher than Germany, France or Italy and higher than the EU27 average. Since then Greece have had to raise the minimum age of retirement twice under bail-out conditions and so this figure is likely to rise further.

from here

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/05/exploding-myth-****less-lazy-greeks

It's bike like the mortgage crises here, people lied on their applications (ie committed fraud) and then said it was 100% the banks fault for making the loan.

Voting for 1 of 2 incumbent parties in an election is vastly different to fraudulently completing a mortgage application! So to be clear you're now accusing the Greek people of de-frauding themselves by not voting for a party that never existed at the time? Like I said, now there is an alternative, and they've voted for it, so you should be pleased with the result?

Its completely lost its way, and is now being held hostage by ideologies hell bent on a federal superstate (formed to represent the interests of them and their mates), no matter what the cost to its citizens.

I'm afraid it was ever so.

The EU idea was first conceived back in the 1920s by two senior officials of the League of Nations – Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter, a British civil servant – to be a United States of Europe, ruled by a government of unelected technocrats like themselves. Two things were anathema to them: nation states with the power of veto (which they had seen destroy the League of Nations) and any need to consult the wishes of the people in elections.

@dazh there are many parties in Greece, but I appreciate that pretty much all of them where intent on bribing the electorate. One justification I was given why so many people avoid tax there was that people felt the government was so corrupt and the state workers / pensioners had it so cushy that why should we fund that with our taxes ? I acknowledge your point but Syriza are IMO no different, they want to keep spending whilst at the same time writing off the debts from prior years of excess spending. They aren't any different IMO, its the same flavour. The last government is what was different, trying to be responsible.

I acknowledge your point but Syriza are IMO no different, they want to keep spending whilst at the same time writing off the debts from prior years of excess spending.

The last government is what was different, trying to be responsible.

How ridiculous. In all your previous statements you deride the corrupt govt for bribing the people, and castigate the population for voting for them, then come out in support of the very same people who caused the problems! Which is it?

MSP - Member
from here

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/05/exploding-myth-****less-lazy-greeks

Basically the author is saying that the Greek govt/politicians are corrupted, crooks or behaving like mafia so should be the sole blame for their situation. Well, he seems to have all answers to their current situation doesn't he? Explaining a way out by being emotional, presenting bar charts to justify etc rather typical of the Greek with talent for arguments.

The bottom line is that their situation is not the result of recent event (past 10 years) but rather the effect of generations of mismanagement that is embedded in their culture but there seem to be general (majority public I speculate) reluctant or complacent in accepting the fact that one day the shite might hit the fan once they joined the EU club. Now the reality set in and they have been found out. What can they do? No much really apart from going for the broke. i.e. more borrowing or get kick out either way they have nothing to loose.

😯

chewkw - Member
Explaining a way out by being emotional, presenting bar charts to justify etc rather typical of the Greek with talent for arguments.

😐

The EU idea was first conceived back in the 1920s by two senior officials of the League of Nations – Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter, a British civil servant – to be a United States of Europe, ruled by a government of unelected technocrats like themselves. Two things were anathema to them: nation states with the power of veto (which they had seen destroy the League of Nations) and any need to consult the wishes of the people in elections.

as its a verbatim quote which is it not quoted and not sourced?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8886498/The-EUs-architects-never-meant-it-to-be-a-democracy.html

Lifer - Member

😐

Also do they have to greet everyone with the word ?????? ?

I mean now that ????? has hit the fan who is ?????? then eh?

🙄

@dazh, you've confused yourself. Thge last government (just defeated) was sorting the problem out by implementing the "austerity" measures, ie a budget the Greeks can afford but with massive EU assistance.

Perhaps Demis Roussos knew something about the likely Greek debt repayment schedule when he wrote this. RIP big fella.

Thge last government (just defeated) was sorting the problem out by implementing the "austerity" measures, ie a budget the Greeks can afford but with massive EU assistance.

I'm fully aware of the current policies of New Democracy but are you seriously claiming that they are any different to the same party who along with Pasok were responsible for 'bribing' the electorate and cooking the books so that they could gain entry into the Euro? It's a pity you can't show the same forgiveness and generosity to the Greek people who you say greedily voted for their own destruction.

From Sky News

[i] During the campaign, Syriza made a number of radical proposals: free electricity, subsidised rent, free healthcare, higher salaries and pensions for the civil service, an increase in the minimum wage, abolishing the existing property tax and so on.[/i]

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1415205/why-syrizas-victory-is-a-poisoned-chalice ]Why Syriza's victory is a poisened chalice[/url]

@dazh, different in the sense that they where following the financial rules set down by the EU/Troika as part of the bailout. That's my take.

jambalaya - Member
Post the crises the Greeks introduced taxes collected via utility bills

Only property tax and only for two years (2012/2013). Last year property tax was payable over the counter at a bank or post office, in six instalments. Or one payment, of course, if you wanted to.
Being a ??????, that's what I did...

Also I can personally vouch for the difficulties the health service is working under. When my wife broke her arm last summer she was, of course, treated (X-ray and plaster) at Genikó Nosokomeío Kalamatas and in all the corridors, waiting rooms, etc. only one light in five was working to reduce electricity costs, they can't even afford those paper rolls that are used on examination couches and the list goes on and on.
My wife couldn't fault the attention and care that she received though, and no, we didn't have to slip anyone a back-hander. Both she and I wish we could be there now (Greece I mean, not the hospital..)

Not that this has anything to do with bugger all, of course.

different in the sense that they where following the financial rules set down by the EU/Troika as part of the bailout. That's my take.

Ah so it's ok as long as they do what they're told once they've been found out?

From Sky News

😀

Free electricity...up to a limit...for those under the poverty line. Insane bastards.

Subsidised rent...as part of a house building scheme. The idiots.

Free healthcare...for the uninsured and unemployed. Mental.

Increase in the minimum wage...or restoration to it's previous level (but lower than it was in 2012). Crazy.

Can't find details about the civil service pay/pensions but the property tax looks like a complete overhaul rather than abolishing it.

Funny how he doesn't slag off proposed meal subsidies for families with zero income though...

I went to Greece shortly after it all went tits up and before I went I read an article on tax avoidance in Greece, and one thing the article mentioned was if you go to Greece take note of how many receipts you get or see being made.

From my personal experience:

1. Taxi - none
2. Hotel - none
3. Restaurants - none
4. Touristy cruise - none
5. Boat hire - none

I was there for a wedding and the bride and groom also had to pay for the wedding venue, restaurant and bar bill in cash, and this wasn't in small places these were big hotels.

Essentially, it appeared like if you could avoid paying tax you did, this was backed up by conversations with a few locals who said they don't pay tax as the roads, schools and public services are so bad that they refuse to pay for them.

Here's a plan - tried and tested

Reduce the repayable amount by 50%
Repayments should only be due when Greece run a trade surplus and limited to 3% of export earnings

Free electricity...up to a limit...for those under the poverty line. Insane bastards.

Subsidised rent...as part of a house building scheme. The idiots.

Free healthcare...for the uninsured and unemployed. Mental.

Increase in the minimum wage...or restoration to it's previous level (but lower than it was in 2012). Crazy.

Gosh, what a bunch of loony commies.

Reduce the repayable amount by 50%
Repayments should only be due when Greece run a trade surplus and limited to 3% of export earnings

@Andy R and @richc these first hand stories are worth a lot as they show what's really happening.

I fully appreciate how difficult things are in Greece but they are better than of they had defaulted a few years ago and will hopefully serve as a lesson to Greeks and to those other countries who try and live on excessive levels of debt.

@Lifer those policies are fine if you can afford them, if you have a strong economy. Paying for them by borrowing money isn't a good plan particularly if you are one of the most indebted countries in the world.

We could do with some of that in the UK as we won't run a trade surplus. Also why not reduce by 75% while you are at it ?

Well, I'm not quite sure how much was actually paid back before the remainder of the 50% was eventually written off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_German_External_Debts

@lifer- you don't mean to say that jam's post was a bunch of misleading half truths do you?

The last government prepared for the election in the time honoured way by hiring a bunch of public employees. This is what the Greek voters rejected.

@jota180 - maybe if the Greeks kill a few million people they'll qualify for that deal?

sierrakilo - Member

Been to Greece and Islands several times............. they always seem to be sitting around drinking coffee in the coffee shops.....doesn't anyone work at all in Greece ? ......no wonder they went bust !

An interesting observation but your conclusion is false. The Greeks according to the OECD on average actually work more hours than anyone else in Europe.

In fact the Greeks work more hours in a year than almost any other nation in the industrialised world.

The Germans in contrast are among the "laziest" in Europe/the world.

[img] [/img]

Greece's financial crises has nothing to do with the Greeks suddenly becoming "lazy" when they joined the Euro, and everything to do with them sharing a currency with Germany - a country at a completely different stage of economic/industrial development than themselves.

Although I can understand the attraction to EU enthusiasts of propagating the myth of Greek "laziness" to explain the failure of their experiment, something which they have had considerable success with - most people I suspect blame the Greeks.

.

"Far left" is how the FT describes it BTW

The media can use all sorts of labels to describe political organisations, it doesn't make them correct. Syriza is an alliance of bourgeois liberals and revisionists. It supports EU membership and the Euro. It wishes to "renegotiate" an "agreement" with the conservative politicians and bankers who control EU, they have ruled out any suggestion of taking unilateral action. No "far left" party would take that stance.

Syriza are in fact more right-wing than the Labour Party was in the 1980's ..... the 1983 Labour Party manifesto called for withdrawal from the EEC and the nationalisation of the banks. This did not incidentally lead to the FT describing the Labour Party as a "far left party", in fact by the 1992 General Election the FT was urging its readers to vote Labour.

Btw as someone who can reasonably be described as far left, and given that the Greeks had a choice, if I were Greek I would have voted KKE, the obvious far left party, not Syriza.

ernie_lynch - Member

An interesting observation but your conclusion is false. The Greeks according to the OECD on average actually work more hours than anyone else in Europe.

In fact the Greeks work more hours in a year than almost any other nation in the industrialised world.

The Germans in contrast are among the "laziest" in Europe/the world.

Let says they don't work Saturday & Sunday (ignoring other public holidays they have) that would equate to 7.79 hour per day so in effect they are not actually working more than a person should be. The other industrialised nations perhaps work smarter without needing to work more than they should be hence reduced hour by comparison.

The question you need to ask is why do they work such long hour yet are in such debts? I bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer ... that's how good they are.

Do they artificially inflate the working hour to justify their income or to get the necessary salary where the actual works do not require such hours?

In fact publishing those "hard working" hour can be rather embarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Unless of course the alternative argument is that their hourly rate is so low they need to work long hour to survive but then they are in EU so there should be minimum wage.

😯

mbarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Yes, Greeks fallng short of the brain juice. What's the minimum wage for a shop keeper, a farmer, a fisherman, a shepherd? Aren't you embarrassed to spout such moronic drivel?

richc - Member
I went to Greece shortly after it all went tits up and before I went I read an article on tax avoidance in Greece, and one thing the article mentioned was if you go to Greece take note of how many receipts you get or see being made.

From my personal experience:

1. Taxi - none
2. Hotel - none
3. Restaurants - none
4. Touristy cruise - none
5. Boat hire - none

I can only add my experience over the last few years - the only time I've taken much notice really, although we've been visiting Greece for well over 20 years and owned a house there for the last 10.

Taxi - No, I've never been given a receipt but then I haven't here (the IoM) either.
Hotel - We only use one (The Nefeli, in Plaka, in that Athens - highly recommended, BTW) and we've always paid by credit card, so not really applicable.
Restaurants - Always get a receipt, not if it's just for an ouzo and meze in some really out-of-the-way place though.
Lawyers, notaries, accountants - the worst by a long way - always want cash and are[b] very[/b] reluctant to part with receipts

That's about all I know - ok, if I pop up the road for a couple of bags of sand and a bag of cement, for example, I don't either, but I always do in my village shop and that's a village of 120 in the back of beyond.

Actually, over the last couple of years, the govt. were issuing leaflets to be displayed at retail outlets, stating that if a receipt wasn't issued the customer wasn't obliged to pay.
Although I suspect that if I didn't pay Stavros at my local builders merchants he might just take me down to his basement and demand payment in kind. Yes, [b]that[/b] kind.... 😯

Edit - re. this minimum wage stuff. If you need the money then you have to take what's offered. The wife of a good friend of mine worked all summer, seven days a week in a taverna from 6pm until they closed (which might be 1-2am in August) for €4 an hour. Obviously short on "brain juice" - much like me then.

Blimey Ernie's back - where have you been? I wondered what had happened to you.

????? ?????? ??? ????

Sloppy titles eh, defining peoples' politics incorrectly! Who needs that?!? 😉

Greeks work long hours true (lots of self employed) but productivity is poor - both need to be considered. But the simple, Greeks are lazy stereotype is not accurate.