fr0sty - correct.
jam - more lies and bullshit. The Greeks have non-working German submarines. Have the Germans offered to reimburse them? Do you actually know anything about the property taxes you speak of? No, I didn't think so. They are unpopular for many reasons, two being that they are unreasonably high, and that they are imposed arbitrarily according to frequently inaccurate information without a process to appeal.
Anyway - interesting article in the Grauniad today
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist ]http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist[/url]
You don't get to walk away from the debt of the past governments just because you don't like it or you have a democratic mandate.
No but you do get to question whether the conditions attached to the repayment are fair, given that past governments fraudulently and corruptly set the conditions in which the money was lent in full knowledge and collusion of the people and countries who lent them the money.
I remember this NS cover article from a few years ago.
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The EU is a fundamentally undemocratic grouping, at the business end.
I'm pro-EU, but the "business ethic" that has shown its face shall we say, is now starting to sour my views on it.
I'm actually kind of hoping Greece will leave the Euro zone, just to shake things up a bit.
ernie, it doesn't really matter who got Greece into this mess left or right ?
Well you certainly seem to think it is very important, so why are you asking me?
Look :
jambalaya - MemberI don't think you could find a country with more left wing spending policies than Greece. They have had a series of governments who have been happy to borrow and distribute the money to the population via various benefits, early retirement etc etc. The population liked the handouts so they kept voting them in.
Posted 2 weeks ago
So it was "left wing spending policies" that was at fault according to you.
However when I point out to you that Greece's debt went through the roof when right-wing conservative governments were in power it suddenly no longer becomes very important. Funny that.
.
Not sure where I was defending arms sales to Greece
I'm pretty sure you were. When I pointed out that contrary to your above claim that these high spending conservative governments 'distributed the money to the population' they in fact went on a spending spree of military hardware, you attempted to justify it.
Look :
jambalaya - MemberGreece spends heavily on the military due to its history of conflict with Turkey. It certainly provides a lot of jobs, soldiers stationed on every island, at least there was when Inlast visited 28 years ago.
Posted 2 weeks ago
You are very clearly suggesting that the spending is justified because Greece has a "history of conflict" with another NATO member state. And apparently because it provides jobs.
BTW I find your concern for Greek jobs touching it's just a shame that you don't support the present government's attempts to preserve jobs, and in fact criticize them for doing so. Although presumably you wouldn't if the jobs were purely military. And the government was conservative of course.
No but you do get to question whether the conditions attached to the repayment are fair
Sorry to part quote you but in a sense (to me) this is immaterial. Greece is running out of money. It can't even afford to run itself/pay itself just to continue.
Even if the 350billion was written off Greece is still ****ed. So what the new Greek Coalition is doing is concentrating its voters on the bad guys in Brussels and not the authors of its own demise; The people for failing to pay taxes and the Government for living beyond its means.
I'm no Economist or Political Commentator but what will happen next is the EU will agree to extend the bailout and terms.
The Greeks debt will steadily increase over the next few years and the Politicans of today (on all sides) will congratulate themselves that it'll be someone elses mess in the future to deal with.
Lets not forget the US Governments national Debt stands at:
$18,000,000,000,000.
Really? Who voted for Dijselbloem?
DrJ he's the Dutch Finance minister, so I would image the Dutch voted for him. As a member of the eurozone he's one of the lenders to Greece. I would imagine he and the Dutch people who voted for him would like their money back sometime.
I'll deal with today's rant from you when I get the time. The form of this thread seems to be like many others where I explain the reality of situations and why government policy is at is and we get a stream of personal abuse. Best of all accused of posting lies. It really does make me chuckle.
Ernie, what the Greeks spent (or wasted) the money on is irrelevant. Whether it was left, right or centre. I only commented on the size of their defense spending to explain a possible rationale for the relevant size of their military. Frankly I don't care what they spent it on. I know you and others think that its somehow relevant as to whether they have to pay back their debt but I do not.
@hora Greek government is claiming its going to raise €5.5bn in 2015 from a variety of tax collection anti-evasion measures. Zero chance they'll get anywhere close to that, €1bn would be my guess and probably less. Not surprisingly they have declined to implement any labour force reforms, so all the closed shops and anti-competitive practices will remain.
It simply boils down to do you lend you mate more money after he's just p*ssed the £100 you gave him up the wall, and when you say 'Yes I'll lend you money but only if you don't go to the pub' his answer is 'I'm not changing a thing'.
So do you still lend him the money ❓
Ernie, what the Greeks spent (or wasted) the money on is irrelevant. Whether it was left, right or centre.Frankly I don't care what they spent it on.
Yeah you're saying it's [i]irrelevant[/i] now and that you don't care because I pointed out that right-wing Greek conservative governments went on a spending spree for military hardware.
It wasn't [i]irrelevant[/i] when you were claiming that they were spending on distributing money to the population via various benefits, early retirement etc etc. And that according to you the population liked the handouts.
But now it's [i]irrelevant[/i].
Like whether the governments were left or right is now also irrelevant. But when you claimed [i]"I don't think you could find a country with more left wing spending policies than Greece"[/i] it wasn't irrelevant.
.
And just to remind ourselves in case you've forgotten :
[url= http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703636404575352991108208712 ]The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greece[/url]
Do you actually know anything about the property taxes you speak of? No, I didn't think so. They are unpopular for many reasons, two being that they are unreasonably high
@DrJ - taxes are 0.1% to 1% for 2014 and onwards, unreasonably high ? They are unpopular because they have an 85% collection rate and Greeks aren't used to having to actually pay their taxes. That's why the Germans offered to send them 500 inspectors. Syriza promised to reduce these taxes which helped them get the middle class vote, old fashioned politics
[url=
tax rates[/url]
By the way when I was researching that I found about how Greeks who have to pay property taxes think the Government is too large, they want government cuts before they have to pay more. [url= http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/01/enfia-tax-greece-new-symbol-austerity-2014130124545458507.html ]Al-Jazera link[/url]
ernie, I pointed out large amounts of spending was for the benefit of ordinary Greek people as you where suggested it was skimmed off on corruption etc. Again you where trying to create a justification / moral argument for why defaulting on the debt was OK
....as you where suggested it was skimmed off on corruption etc.
No I didn't. As far as I am aware the only person who has talked about corruption in Greece is [i]you[/i]. IIRC you claimed something along the lines that Greece was the most corrupt country in Europe, which isn't true btw.
Again you where trying to create a justification / moral argument for why defaulting on the debt was OK
What I am doing is correcting your false and factually incorrect claims. I have not made the case 'for why defaulting on the debt is OK'.
The form of this thread seems to be like many others where I explain the reality of situations and why government policy is at is and we get a stream of personal abuse. Best of all accused of posting lies. It really does make me chuckle.
The form of this thread is familiar - you post some offensive and/or racist nonsense and back it up with facts that you invented yourself, or links that don't say what you think they say.
For example - did you actually look at the ENFIA tax rates link? It gives the rates for a main tax and a supplementary tax. You quoted only the supplementary tax rates. By the way - the other day I got a leaflet through the door trying to scare me by saying that unless I voted Tory i might be hit by a mansion tax of ... 1%. So it seems that Greeks are not the only ones who don't like taxes - it's a vote winner here!!
The other link you posted details how people who worked all their lives are now saddled with real estate that is worth very little but that they have to pay tax on, which they can't afford - the same asset rich cash poor people who are now worried about a mansion tax. Except it's not a mansion, it's a bit of land in the middle of nowhere which has now been valued at pre-crash levels.
It simply boils down to
No. it doesn't. It's more like you lent a mate some money that you knew he would never be able to pay back (let's gloss over for now why you would do that) and now he asks you for some more time to pay. Do you rejoice in your own rightness, and insist that he sticks to the payments, even if he has to sell his car which he needs to get to work, and it means that his wife and kids go hungry and he STILL can never keep up with your payments? Or do you work out a way for him to get back on his feet and you get at least some of your money back?
Lets not forget the US Governments national Debt stands at:$18,000,000,000,000.
Aaaaaand in one short sentence you immediately undermine anything you might have said which made sense.
DrJ - MemberFor example - did you actually look at the ENFIA tax rates link? It gives the rates for a main tax and a supplementary tax. You quoted only the supplementary tax rates.
From €2-€9 per square metre, depending on the location and age of building, among other factors. There are exemptions that can be applied for but for us it didn't seem worth bothering to do this as we're in an area and type of building that has a €3 per square metre rating and so €300-ish per year seemed reasonable enough. It's probably about 25% less in real terms than we pay in the "grim North".
Where we are I don't see everyone trying to find ways to avoid paying this either - the few people (all Greek, btw) that I've spoken to about it seem to be of the opinion that if they want such things as regular rubbish collection, mains water and streetlighting then someone has to pay for it.
But then I'm the first to admit that I only have an old man's very blinkered view of life, both here and in Greece.
In that respect I'm like my father was - I try and make things as good as possible for me and my family while accepting that I'm never going to have the clout, intelligence or influence to do much more than that.
That's why I don't get involved in political or economics arguments - I'm not clever enough.
No. it doesn't. It's more like you lent a mate some money that you knew he would never be able to pay back (let's gloss over for now why you would do that) and now he asks you for some more time to pay. Do you rejoice in your own rightness, and insist that he sticks to the payments, even if he has to sell his car which he needs to get to work, and it means that his wife and kids go hungry and he STILL can never keep up with your payments? Or do you work out a way for him to get back on his feet and you get at least some of your money back?
Hahaha. That's actually funny. The ECB and Greece aren't mates. It's a BANK FFS and they aren't about to throw money away just so that a newly elected government can effect some popular but unrealistic campaign promises at their cost.
Hahaha. That's actually funny. The ECB and Greece aren't mates.
If you stop laughing for a moment you might realise how dumb your comment is. The ECB is there to "help", it's not some sort of business designed purely to make a profit.
HTH
@AndyR - I gather that you have property in Greece? Then you'll be aware that the database used to estimate your tax is replete with mistakes(*), and that if you dispute your bill you first have to pay it and then seek an amendment via the usual bureaucratic channels. Someone has to pay for rubbish to be collected, for sure, but suddenly imposing a wealth tax seems a rather harsh way to do it. They raised about 3bn Euros from a population of 10 million, which works out to about 300 per person, so 1000-ish per household. That's a lot of money when there is 25% unemployment and a minumum wage of 750 per month.
(*) including that the property being taxed may actually not exist.
@wrecker - the money is gone, the question is how best to get some of it back. B bankrupting the debtor?
The ECB is there to "help", it's not some sort of business designed purely to make a profit.
The IMF is also here purely to save kittens
The ECB is there to "help", it's not some sort of business designed purely to make a profit.
😀 The ECB is there to administer financial policy, not to throw money away. It's not the ECBs money to start with. You can throw words like "dumb" around all you like, the point stands. They aren't mates, to suggest otherwise is....dumb.
@wrecker - the money is gone, the question is how best to get some of it back. B bankrupting the debtor?
What would your bank do if it were you?
Now, where's THM. This thread needs a bit more insight from someone who knows what he's talking about (yes, I know that I'm not helping).
Do you rejoice in your own rightness, and insist that he sticks to the payments, even if he has to sell his car which he needs to get to work, and it means that his wife and kids go hungry and he STILL can never keep up with your payments? Or do you work out a way for him to get back on his feet and you get at least some of your money back?
If your mate acts like Greece and makes no effort to even address his problems, then you'd be out of your mind to give him more money. Cut your losses and run.
If your mate acts like Greece and makes no effort to even address his problems
But that's not happening. Electing Syriza is precisely the first step to addressing the problems, because the other parties are too deeply mired in the sleaze that created them in the first place.
Really they want to put a load more people back onto the government payroll, how is that going to help anything. Plus cancelled selling their port to the Chinese, who were paying for it to be upgraded. Right now money is leaving the country fast, with no seeming plan to stop it.
What would your bank do if it were you?
I have no idea, but coincidentally I am in a similar situation myself. A guy owes me money and has signed a court agreement to pay, plus interest. In fact he has repaid me next to nothing. What shall I do? Enforce the agreement and drive him to bankruptcy, and see nothing? Or wait a bit for his business to pick up and get some of my money back?
The form of this thread seems to be like many others where I explain the reality of situations and why government policy is at is and we get a stream of personal abuse.
The stream of personal abuse seems to consist mainly of people explaining how your "facts" are wrong.
because the other parties are too deeply mired in the sleaze that created them in the first place.
Its more fundamental than that. Tax receipts, spend on public sector, increase in public sector staffing over the years.
The current government is popular. In a years time they'll be blaming the EU for the predicament to stop them from being punched and kicked in the street.
The ECB and Greece aren't mates. It's a BANK FFS
That doesn't exclude them from showing some basic compassion. humanity and fairness towards the Greek people, who are being impoverished as a result of the corrupt, fraudulent and criminal actions of their previous governments and colluding bankers, politicians and eurocrats who created this situation.
How many kids have to faint in school from malnutrition before the banks and EU governments say enough is enough? How many people need to be living on the streets? How many people should die from lack of healthcare? How many people should be unemployed and living off meagre state handouts?
In a years time they'll be blaming the EU for the predicament to stop them from being punched and kicked in the street.
I think they will be correct in blaming them.
Greece has to sort it out the EU has to let them do this without an excess of suffering.
So common sense prevails and despite all the posturing and photo ops Greece [s]signs[/s] (EDIT proposes and will sign is my guess) a six month extension of the current legally binding agreement. No choice as the Greek electorate want to stay in the euro and doing anything else would have lead to immediate collapse of the banks and government finances and a euro exit.
Greece can now try and negotiate a reduction in some of the the specific targets particularly the size of the budget surplus required going forward.
What I don't know in the short term, ie the next 6 months, how they will pay for some of the promises they have already made.
@dazh - kids don't have to faint in schools if the Greeks actually collect some more taxes or sell off some of the assets which they had previously agreed to do so, like the port the Chinese had agreed to buy. As per ernie's suggestion they should stop spending so much on military hardware too.
kids don't have to faint in schools if the Greeks actually collect some more taxes
Best way to increase the tax take is to generate more income to tax. Pushing the economy to disaster only reduces tax receipts.
DrJ - I did read the piece and yes it was the supplemental part. I also did a back of the envelope calculation yesterday very similar to you and got a very similar answer - ie about €9,333 per household (2.8bn / 3m guestimate). Always potentially misleading quoting averages but that doesn't seem so bad to me, not least when a train driver earns €100,000 - frankly given the mire Greece is in he can afford an extra €5,000 no ? When they abolished the personal allowance here in the UK for those earning more than £125k that's an extra tax of £4,000-£5,000 pa
that doesn't seem so bad to me, not least when a train driver earns €100,000
There ya go again.
"the percentage of employees who receive less than 1,000 euros per month skyrocketed from 37% in 2011, to 53.7% in 2013"
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/08/19/ika-average-salary-drops-in-greece/
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greece-repaid-debts-ages-ago-2015021995530 ]Looks like its all sorted[/url] 😀
wrecker - Member
Now, where's THM. This thread needs a bit more insight from someone who knows what he's talking about...
How kind. Would love to help, but currently (still) locked out by a diver wearing a fancy watch .....
Time for Merkel to deal with her dog.
Germany has said no ! 😯
Mr Game Theory has been caught swimming naked
Haha love the Mash @binners
@DrJ - that will be those self employed Greeks who don't declare all of their income, no ? Easiest way in Greece to avoid taxes. Greece used to claim they where a highly entrepreneurial society as so many are self employed, most of the doctors for example.
wrecker - MemberThey aren't mates, to suggest otherwise is....dumb.
And the the ECB is not just a bank like the HSBC or Lloyds either, to say [i]"It's a BANK FFS"[/i] as you did is pretty dumb. Do you also think the Bank of England is just a bank like any other bank?
From the ECB own website :
[i]Acting also as a leading financial authority, we aim to safeguard financial stability and promote European financial integration.[/i]
A bit like the HSBC eh? 😀
Germany has said no !Mr Game Theory has been caught swimming naked
Strangely you seem quite pleased about that. It comes across as a rather vindictive and cold-hearted response. Hardly surprising that the greeks compare them to the Nazis.
I'm aware of what the European Central [b]Bank[/b] does. What it doesn't do is give money away buckshee. You borrow, you repay. You don't get not to repay just because it's not a normal bank like HSBC. As I said, it's not the banks money to give.
Anyways, have the euros just refused the Greeks proposal on refinancing then? What does that mean? Does it look like they are willing to let them defalt? What did the Greeks ask for?
Was hoping for THM to give a better explanation TBH (nudge nudge).
What does that mean?
That they want their pound of flesh? That they want not only to defeat the Greek Govt but to humiliate them also? That they want to send a message to the Greek people that the balance sheets of banks and governments in the rest of Europe are more important than the greeks being able to feed their families? etc...
It's a stupid move IMO. The hubristic germans probably think that this will turn the greek people against Syriza and that they'll be voting for a nice new pliable govt in a few months time, when it'll probably do the opposite. If I were a Greek I'd be thinking that if I'm going to go down, I'm going to take the rest of them with me.
Worth noting its the germans acting alone on this and NOT an EU view
The European commission had described the Greek proposal – widely seen as a climbdown on some of Greece’s key demands – as a positive sign that could pave the way for compromise.
German finance minister has rejected it unilaterally.
They have no interest in compromise and that includes with the rest of the EU
German finance minister has rejected it unilaterally.
I've heard that Wolfgang Schaeuble has an errant hand which spontaneously and without warning
does a nazi salute.
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He finds it most embarrassing apparently.
dazh - Member
"Germany has said no !
Mr Game Theory has been caught swimming naked"Strangely you seem quite pleased about that.
Hence my earlier Schadenfreude comment.
Strangely you seem quite pleased about that. It comes across as a rather vindictive and cold-hearted response.
Fifty Shades of Jambo.