When it comes to Europe the whole L v R thing is a red herring anyway (even more so than normal) as the parties are pretty confused on the whole issue and it's constituent parts.
The point about the leftie joke is simple - why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them*. It's illogical. The only answer would be if they were unilaterally committed to full fiscal union which would allow the fiscal transfers to take place - and we know where The Deutsche are on that issue. The others can't quite decide.
* competitiveness to come though wage deflation and or unemployment (leaving only the owners of capital to benefit).
Having said that Tsipras and varoufakis probably know the names of more businessmen that support them than Ed Balls. Poor chap, I hope he has pulled his trousers up now.
Are you against mortgages, investments and the entire banking sector?
The mortgages whereby people could self certify and borrow many many times their salaries?....yep, dead against those.
The ones where you're loaned 3-4 times your salary and have a chance at paying it back and a margin of error should interest rates change?...they're fine.
It comes down to responsible lending and borrowing as somebody else above this post said.
Banking has become ridiculous with savers expecting 5%+ interest on their money but then crying foul when the bank plays fast and loose with their savings...you cant have it both ways, safe-ish investments and lower but hopefully steady returns or larger, faster returns but through risky investments....the fallacy we've been sold in recent times is that we can have it all.
We cant.
Is it too much to ask for a bit of reality being reintroduced to the financial sector?...the public (and i include myself in this) need to wake up too, earning 20k a year but carrying round several credit cards all with 10k limits is absurd...people think they're managing because they can make the interest payment each month but in reality its only keeping the wolf from the door.
At whatever level you talk about debt, be it personal, business, national etc it usually stems from greed...a desire to have something NOW rather than wait, a desire to have something that in reality you cant afford but credit makes it seem like you can...and in this day and age people/countries dont want to be told 'No'...they want what everyone else has even if the reality of the situation is that they shouldnt have it...again credit swoops in and makes it seem affordable.
That is what needs to stop happening at every level.
Now that's a more nuanced reply 😀
That is what needs to stop happening at every level.
I'll remind you of that when your kid needs an expensive operation.
The ones where you're loaned 3-4 times your salary and have a chance at paying it back and a margin of error should interest rates change?...they're fine.
Why? If individuals had to live by the same laws as companies and financial institutions then they'd all be declared insolvent and shut down. And just like Jambalaya, you're making the silly error in equating individual finances to that of national and international economies. The two couldn't be more different. I would love to be able to unilaterally force my employers to pay me more whilst at the same time reducing the value of my fixed debts by printing more £20 notes, but unlike national governments, that's not something that's within my power.
Well, you can print your own money, it's the getting away with it that's the hard bit!
by printing more £20 notes, but unfortunately that's not something within my power.
Well sorry to be a pedant, but strictly speaking it [i]is[/i] possible and moreover, I encourage you to do so and share some with me 🙂
Well, you can print your own money, it's the getting away with it that's the hard bit!
I always thought it was the eyes
Greek Railways, the ones Vovouakis said he would sell for 1 euro. back of the envelope its worth about negative 8 billion 😯
Why? If individuals had to live by the same laws as companies and financial institutions then they'd all be declared insolvent and shut down
Nonsense. Most individuals are far less leveraged than companies.
why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them
So few words and yet so many dismissive and [ largely inaccurate]digs
It really is a skill you have honed to perfection
The point about the leftie joke is simple - why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them*. It's illogical.* competitiveness to come though wage deflation and or unemployment (leaving only the owners of capital to benefit).
Only that's not what you suggested in your "leftie joke". You claimed that lefties, quote : [i]"don't understand basics of labour market economics!!!"[/i], not why would they support something [i]"that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them".[/i]
I do agree with you though that many who purport to be leftie, including a fair few on here, fail to fully grasp the irreconcilable class antagonisms that characterize all societies beyond hunter-gatherer.
However lefties with a clear class understanding, and you obviously THM as you've made clear, fully understand the conflict of interest which exists with regards to wages between employees and owners of capital, as you like to call them.
I give your leftie joke 2/10 for effort. And that's being generous I might add.
Nonsense. Most individuals are far less leveraged than companies.
Are you sure?
On the contrary, it's exactly what I claimed and have claimed consistently. Your highlighted bit is the qualification not the point itself. The * was the give away, unless that was missed in the selective edit. Many "lefties" support something that is incompatible with their goals, this suggests the lack of understanding not the other way round. Then again many "righties" including many Tories bizarrely oppose the freedom of movement of people. All very inconsistent...and that's before the flip-flopping on overall attitudes towards Europe. Hence framing that debates as L v R is largely unhelpful (1/10?).
But thanks for the 2 marks, I am chuffed. I can go home proud of achieving something today! You are too generous...
Many "lefties" support something that is incompatible with their goals
Well at the risk of repeating myself I agree that many who [i]purport[/i] to be left-wing support positions which are incompatible with their goals. However those with a better class understanding tend not to.
Sadly THM not everyone understands the irreconcilable conflict of class interests as well as you and me.
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Hence framing that debates as L v R is largely unhelpful (1/10?).
Not entirely, for me the best quick gauge of how left-wing an individual or party is their attitude to the EU. No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU, to do so is clearly incompatible with their goals, as you put it.
And it was on that basis that it was fairly simple to conclude that Syriza, despite all the media hype and scare stories, is not a far left party. In contrast the anti-EU KKE clearly is.
Likewise the Labour Party today can barely be called left-wing, if at all, and yet in 1983 when its policy was to withdraw from the EEC it clearly was left-wing.
But then of course many on the right are also anti-EU so it is not always entirely relevant. So I would give that comment more than 1/10 if you're asking.
What's all this class crap? Do the Greeks have a caste system?
No, Greece is a classless society. Hadn't you heard ?
Not entirely, for me the best quick gauge of how left-wing an individual or party is their attitude to the EU. No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU, to do so is clearly incompatible with their goals, as you put it.
Sorry not sure I would agree 😉 the EU has bought a number of important benefits in terms of workers' rights and protection that have countered trends in the other direction. The positives of the EU get lost in the noise of bananas etc.
So that is compatible with LW goals. To me, it's the elephant in the room - the fixed exchange rate - that is the issue at the heart of the incompatibilities. It has been a disaster for workers and the youth of the peripheral states. Hence people will be drawn to protest parties despite their obvious lack of joined up thinking - even the sweaties did that!
Who loses in all of this - probably not the politicians. Yes some might well have only a very temporary moment centre stage but the real pain is with the youth and the workers.
It has been a disaster for workers and the youth of the peripheral states.
This. The whole thing has been a hidden subsidy for Germany and the rest, but they want to have their cake and eat it, while lecturing others on their greed.
So that is compatible with LW goals.
Of course it isn't 😀
No left-wing government would be allowed to implement socialist policies, that's the whole point of the EU. They would not even be allowed to implement social democratic/keynesian policies of state support for struggling industries without special permission. Or refuse to open up their markets to competition.
Which is fine if you're not very left-wing like the UK Labour Party, but a bit of a stinker if you are a socialist.
Its quite ridiculous to suggest a Greek exit will lead to the political destablisation of Europe. There will be a few bumps but most won't really notice. Personally I think a Greek exit will show the rest of the EU members and potential members that if you behave irresponsibly you will leave the club. The EU should have been very good for Greece but the nation decided to abuse the ability to borrow whilst doing nothing to address the corruption and tax avoidance. The EU has been very successful for a number of smaller countries, even Portugal and Ireland which made material errors in managing their economies have been bailed out and are moving on.
Seems quite clear to me Syriza will tow the line if they are serious about staying in the euro, otherwise a default and exit are on the cards
many who purport to be leftie, including a fair few on here, fail to fully grasp the irreconcilable class antagonisms that characterize all societies beyond hunter-gatherer
Its possible to be both Left wing and not a Marxist though I have some sympathy with your view and Marx though not enough to be one.
No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU
True
Its quite a strange mix of [soft]left wing - the employment regs THM mentions but ultimately its a right wing free trade club controlled by [ gentle interventionists ] free marketers who protect business.
as for the freedom of movement I have always found it perplexing that the right wing trust markets to do the right thing but not people so they will de regulate business and restrict people with immigration control, drugs law, sex trade laws etc. Its clear even the most right wing of folk dont actually trust the market
Its possible to be both Left wing and not a Marxist
Er yes, I'm not sure why you feel the need to tell me that.
It's not only Marxists who recognize the conflict of interests between 'workers and owners of capital', THM obviously does as he brought it up the issue on this thread, I'm fairly sure that he's not a Marxist.
Seems quite clear to me that a compromise will be found if the Germans realise that it is in everyone's interest that Greece be given the opportunity to reform their economy without a descent into further poverty, otherwise a default and exit are on the cards, in which case the creditors won't get a bean.
Correct.
In fact, I hadn't realised they still existed. Rather quaint, really.
Not just the Germans, the tax payers of all the other eurozone countries need to agree. Will the recovery be zero in the event of a default ? Not sure I could see Greece remaining in the EU if it pays zero cents on the euro. Not sure I agree it makes sense for Germany and the other EU nations to have Greece remain in the euro.
The compromise that will be found is that Syriza will be bound by much the same agreement as currentky with a few tweaks granted in feturn for reforms / tax collection targets
I'm not entirely sure what your last comment was suppose to mean THM but if I get the gist correct you might find this comment by Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman interesting :
[i]I think our eyes have been averted from the capital/labor dimension of inequality, for several reasons. It didn’t seem crucial back in the 1990s, and not enough people (me included!) have looked up to notice that things have changed. It has echoes of old-fashioned Marxism — which shouldn’t be a reason to ignore facts, but too often is. And it has really uncomfortable implications.
But I think we’d better start paying attention to those implications.[/i]
Paul Krugman.
Did I mention his Nobel Prize ?
The compromise that will be found is that Syriza will be bound by much the same agreement as currentky with a few tweaks granted in feturn for reforms / tax collection targets
As Einstein said, doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is a symptom of insanity.
A couple of times, but I think you got away with it.
From time to time, Krugman makes sense such as a few days ago...
And here’s the thing: If the troika had been truly realistic, it would have acknowledged that it was demanding the impossible.
He obviously deserved his prize! Of course the impossible started earlier than that, but that's another story!
teamhurtmore - Member
Let's not forget that for the average Greek, this is a time of considerable stress and unhappiness. For all the anti-Government rhetoric in the UK, think for one moment how much more severe this is in Greece. European politicians simply dont seem to get this.[b]POSTED 3 YEARS AGO #[/b]
For a Nobel winner isn't he a bit late to this. Some of this saw it coming for much longer.....it wasn't hard.
Funnily enough Ernie, you were positing hours worked on the same thread three years ago too!!!
teamhurtmore - Member
Unelected representatives have now been given the mandate to impose draconian auterity measures in their economies that are already struggling to achieve growth. This will lead to significant social unrest in several European economies and will be the final straw in some cases. The result will be a final realisation that to restore cost competitiveness to their economies several countries will need to introduce a new form of Euro arrangement or leave the Euro altogether. The only certainty in this will be that the politicians will remain behind the curve in terms of their populations and the financial markets.It will not be pretty.
[b]POSTED 3 YEARS AGO #[/b]
It was/is only a matter of time....it really has not been pretty especially for young Greeks.
I'm sorry THM you've lost me. Are claiming that 3 years ago only you knew that austerity was [i]"much more severe"[/i] in Greece than the UK ? If so are you serious ?
And are you also serious with your comment [i]"For a Nobel winner isn't he a bit late to this"[/i] ? Or is this another one of your jokes ? You know full well that Krugman has opposed the Eurozone austerity plans from the very start.
I don't understand the last line in the first of your two posts at all.
No I am not claiming that.
Re the last line, just noting that you were making the correct point about hours worked in Greece at the same time.
Anyway there is a labour mp singing the joys of Europe right now on the Beeb
It's not entirely surprising - the labour movement has always had a strong element of "internationalism". The mistake, of course, is to imagine that the EU is run for the people, and not for the owners. A bit like thinking that a casino is built for the benefit of gamblers.
The owners??
The owners??
Well THM you earlier referred to [i]"the owners of capital"[/i], which sounds terribly marxist btw, I suspect DrJ is talking about [i]those[/i] owners.
Marxist-speak!?! Hardly - first year economics (AS level) and the circular flow of income. Owners of the factors of production and the rents that go with them. Perhaps there is a hidden Marxist element in economics 101 textbooks and examiners!! (I doubt it)
Personally, I thing the good doctor is referring to the political owners of the € project. Perhaps he may confirm.
Meanwhile the Danes have the opposite problem, with stopping money flowing into the currency!!! The joys and follies of fixed exchange rates/pegs.
Ernie, your friend Christina has tricky few weeks ahead too!
Personally, I thing the good doctor is referring to the political owners of the € project. Perhaps he may confirm.
Indeed.
The ironic thing about the Danish problem is that they have a level of personal debt that makes the Greeks look frugal. They do, however, have a highly efficient, some would say over zealous, tax collection system.
Everyone is bickering about the various economic connotations, but we are forgetting the less savoury, but very real [url= http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/05/greek-german-finance-ministers-clash-debt-relief-talks ]political implications[/url]
[i]Greece’s radical Syriza government remained locked in a bitter standoff with its German paymasters, as finance minister Yanis Varoufakis issued a stark warning of the rise of nazism in his country if the eurozone fails to heed the democratic voice of Greek voters.[/i]
Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement. But theres no doubt that the far right will be looking to take advantage of anything they can
Marxist-speak!?!
Yep, it sounds terribly marxist, as indeed does the term [i]capitalism[/i] - did you use that term in first year economics ? Of course we all know that capitalism is not a term that Marx himself used - it's never mentioned in any of the volumes of Das Kapital.
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Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement.
Well obviously, he's clearly getting rather desperate and as a consequence is being a tad over dramatic.
Although it is a historical fact that fascism thrives on being ignore, so his comment shouldn't be dismissed too swiftly.
Well obviously, he's clearly getting rather desperate and as a consequence is being a tad over dramatic.
Not really - have you not been following the news about Golden Dawn and their cozy relationships in the police and army? These are the consequences that don't count in the little morality tale that is told by jamba and co, but they are real enough in Greece.
Another consequence is that all the refugees from the asian and middle east hotspots that are now ditching up on Greece's shores will be heading north unchecked to the milk and honey of the EU.
Yes I have. Have you been following the news concerning how 72 of their party members including all their MPs are await trial for among other things conspiracy to murder ? Did you notice that at the recent election their support didn't increase and that in fact they lost an MP ?
As I said, the threat from fascism should never be ignored, this doesn't however prove that Golden Dawn are in the cusp of achieving power. As I suggested previously they have probably peaked. The threat they pose is more associated to the violence and criminal activity rather than achieving meaningful power.
The rise of the far right in Europe certainly isn't restricted to Greece. And I'm sure that given any further financial chaos, they'll be out there doing what they do... offering simplistic solutions to complex problems.
It just seems to me that everyone is focussing on the economics of this situation, and not the potential political fallout. I think theres a complacency at work (in Europe? Surely not?) where the main concern of the money men is left wingers (who aren't really that left wing. Wheres if you look at the bigger picture, its the right wingers who are the scary ones. And they're benefitting massively too, as people abandon the established parties throughout Europe
binners - MemberNow theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement.
Scaremongering's a weird word. When someone sells you a fish you don't accuse him of fishmongering. Sometimes stuff is just scary and worth talking about and honestly I think it goes without saying that the current situation in Greece is like a wee petri dish for extremism, if you have 50% youth unemployment then it's pretty likely that they're going to burn the country to the ground.
I agree with you completely Northwind. I'm absolutely amazed that, with 50% youth unemployment in a lot of countries, that there hasn't been serious civil unrest by now. And I think that because it hasn't happened [i]yet[/i] governments are assuming that it won't.
Well I wouldn't bank on it. I think it might not take much to ignite the situation. And obviously there are people who'd like nothing more than to do just that
I'm absolutely amazed that, with 50% youth unemployment in a lot of countries, that there hasn't been serious civil unrest by now. And I think that because it hasn't happened yet governments are assuming that it won't.
I think the only thing holding it back is that a lot of the unemployed/disenfranchised youth can still rely on their parents/family to provide a roof over their heads and food in their mouths. As the middle and lower classes are squeezed further by austerity this support will not be available and it could/will become much nastier. And where Greece leads, Spain, France and Italy won't be far behind.