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Living in South Africa for the last 7 years means that the various European Crisis' have passed me by. We have enough over here to worry about as it is.
So, in 5(or so) steps, how did Greece go from being the happy-go-lucky 80's holiday mecca it was (in Shirley Valentines day) to its current position?
They Greeks all went to a German bar and went on a 5 year bender with just a card behind the bar as collateral. Barman is now asking then to pay up. Turns out is was an expired library card they used as collateral. They now have one hell of a hang over and are asking the barman for a 5 year hair of the dog on a tab.
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😆
4 words?
Lied on mortgage application?
In more than 5 sentences:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/sep/23/boomerang-michael-lewis-review
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boomerang-Meltdown-Tour-Michael-Lewis/dp/0241955025
In Greece, infrastructure costs mean it would be cheaper to transport all Greek rail passengers by taxi, and hairdressing is classified as arduous for tax avoidance purposes.
footflaps - Member
They Greeks all went to a German bar and went on a 5 year bender with just a card behind the bar as collateral. Barman is now asking then to pay up. Turns out is was an expired library card they used as collateral. They now have one hell of a hang over and are asking the barman for a 5 year hair of the dog on a tab.
This, but the German bartender suspected that the card looked a bit iffy at the time. Didn't bother checking because their main priority was getting folk into the bar so that they could boast about how wonderful it was.
Very nice country
very nice people
1. Greece joined the eu and adopted the euro, by lying about the state of the economy.
2. In the 10 years that followed adoption of the Euro mismanagement of the economy continued, the average public sector wage doubled for example.
3. They have run a significant deficit for years yet have some very strange fiscal policies and procedures that are begging for reform such as; retirement ages / tax rates / tax collection practices and enforcement.
4. When international debt markets wobbled Greece was one of the first to suffer and they have been reliant on creditor deals and support from the Euro central Bank and IMF for a number of years (some debt has already been written off).
5. The Greek government was elected on a mandate of agreeing to secure more funding and spend their way out of recession as opposed to austerity however the creditors and only potential funders of such spending, the euro central Bank and the IMF are not willing to throw cash at the problem and have lost patience.
and now the barman wants Greece to pay back their debts by washing the glasses. He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses. The interest on the debt is 30 Euros a day.
If the eight or so obscenely wealthy Greek shipping owners who hold 95% of Greece's wealth, outside Greece, would pay just 10% of the taxes they owe the government, all Greece's problems would be finished. Unfortunately though, when invited, the gentlemen declined to reveal their financial affairs to the government. In shipping your major financial assets are all floating around the world's oceans so you can get paid anywhere you like. S'easy.
- It was Greek businessman in South Africa who explained that to me.
and now the barman wants Greece to pay back their debts by washing the glasses. He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses. The interest on the debt is 30 Euros a day.
Edit:
"He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses, but they still haven't washed a single one yet and just keep asking for more money."
The Greeks have debts they are unable to pay.
They need to be able to grow their economy to meet their responsibilities, but austerity is making this impossible.
An austerity obsessed political movement(as long as it is austerity to be suffered by the poor and not the rich) won't allow for any other outcome.
Greece is being smashed between a rock and a hard place in the name of austerity dogma.
iirc the UK banking sector was the third or fourth biggest holder of Greek debt when that private debt was nationalised by the original bail out, so pretending the UK isn't up to its elbows shovelling shit on Greece would be laughable if the reality wasn't so stark.
Loving the analogies.
🙂
uwe-r - Member
1. Greece joined the eu and adopted the euro, by engaging Goldman Sachs to lie about the state of the economy and to package some complicated but nonetheless profitable for Goldman Sachs, credit swap instruments that were later to become known as 'toxic debt' sold on to others.
2. In the 10 years that followed adoption of the Euro mismanagement of the economy continued, the average public sector wage doubled for example.
3. They have run a significant deficit for years yet have some very strange fiscal policies and procedures that are begging for reform such as; retirement ages / tax rates / tax collection practices and enforcement.
4. When international debt markets wobbled Greece was one of the first to suffer and they have been reliant on creditor deals and support from the Euro central Bank and IMF for a number of years (some debt has already been written off).
5. The Greek government was elected on a mandate of agreeing to secure more funding and spend their way out of recession as opposed to austerity however the creditors and only potential funders of such spending, the euro central Bank and the IMF are not willing to throw cash at the problem and have lost patience.
ftfy
Lots of bad people have profited from the state Greece finds itself in, not least German Arms & Motoring manufacturers.
You don't half have a hardon for trying to blame all the people of Greece for this! 😆footflaps - Member
"He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses, but they still haven't washed a single one yet and just keep asking for more money."
You don't half have a hardon for trying to blame all the people of Greece for this!
I'm really just trying to balance out all the anti-German sentiment, but ultimately they have to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.
You don't half have a hardon for trying to blame all the people of Greece for this
Starting to look like the jamba 2.0 update. Pretty soon he will be gloating over pictures of dead Palestinian children.
[quote=footflaps ]I'm really just trying to balance out all the anti-German sentiment, but ultimately they have to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.
[s]You're trying to provide balance to those who suggest that both sides are at fault by suggesting it was all the fault of Greece?[/s]
edit: re-read what you wrote - yes, at some point Germany has to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in 🙄
Ultimatley they will as that's how this ****ed up world works, you don't need to perpetuate the myth that they are all shysters though! It's not your ordinary punter in the street that causes this type of mess.footflaps - Member
You don't half have a hardon for trying to blame all the people of Greece for this!
I'm really just trying to balance out all the anti-German sentiment, but ultimately they have to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.
Who said they were shysters?
I think they are fiscally incompetent and unwilling to reform, but at the end of the day that's their problem (as they are slowly finding out).
They also still seem deluded that they can stay in the Euro and maintain their [s]current[/s] recent standard of living.
If there's a will there's a way. Why does profit have to come before peoples well being?
Collective punishment is against the geneva convention.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/greece-spain-helped-germany-recover
difference being there are now more people owing than lending, at this stage let greece off and then the next call will be coming from Italy, Spain and Portugal along with Africa and heaps more. Can the world economy come out of that one?
Can the world economy come out of that one?
Yes, it did after wwII, in fact it turned countries devastated by war and with unprecedented levels of debt into a substantial period of growth.
Post WWII Germany's debt repayments were capped at 3% of export earnings which very cleverly focused Germany on boosting exports and incentivised their lenders to buy German goods.
So you could write off all world debt?
Large amounts could be written off and has been many times before, lots can be repackaged so that it is not a burden that strangles the owing nations.
1. The € zone project was poorly designed and cannot work.
2. Several guinea pigs have been used as test cases
3. As one of (2) Greece has simply proved (1)
Err, that's it.
teamhurtmore - Member
1. The € zone project was poorly designed and cannot work.2. Several guinea pigs have been used as test cases
3. As one of (2) Greece has simply proved (1)
Err, that's it.
So we let Greece slip of the edge entirely?
No. Please refer to my other posts. We do exactly the opposite.
It might have worked if Greeks were not such proud people and their hatred of Germany not so deep, thanks to WW11.
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece
2nd world country overspends on non-productive public servants, by borrowing at artificially low rates. Credit crunch hits, no slack to bail out banks, no ability to print money resulting in chaos. Germany like some well meaning parent tries to help, but only makes it worse.
Oh and the Euro is sh*t.
Debt is for the public. Profit is for the private.
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Fair enough, i'll have a look.teamhurtmore - Member
No. Please refer to my other posts. We do exactly the opposite.
Err, that's it.
Well if you ignore the impact of austerity, the corruption of past Greek governments and major banking institutions, not to mention the complete incompetence by the credit rating agencies, then yeah that's it.
footflaps - Member"He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses, but they still haven't washed a single one yet and just keep asking for more money."
It's a perfect analogy this, bit you seem not to understand why- there's absolutely no point in washing a single glass, if it doesn't resolve the actual debt. Which I think everyone knows is the case with Greece. It doesn't reflect badly on them that they're not taking a terrible deal.
What the greeks have rejected- rightly- is a bailout that makes things worse for them without fixing the problem. Perhaps they could accept an offer that makes it worse for them, if it actually dealt with the debt. But nobody seems to want to put that on the table.
This doesn't imply that they'd reject a half-decent deal. We may never know, first they'd have to get one.
Err, that's it.
Well if you ignore the impact of austerity, the corruption of past Greek governments and major banking institutions, not to mention the complete incompetence by the credit rating agencies, then yeah that's it.
Causes or symptoms? I was referring to the OP's actual question.
But FWIW I don't ignore and regular post a link to this work on the topic
Greece's 'Odious' Debt: The Looting of the Hellenic Republic by the Euro, the Political Elite and the Investment Community (Anthem Finance) Paperback – 5 May 2011
The title says it all.
Just imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff 😯
They may well not write it off and just extend the terms and drop the rate to 0%. Thus kicking the can down the road and buying Greece some breathing space so they can continue to not reform their economy.
Meanwhile in Puerto Rico and China......
ninfan - MemberJust imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff
And that is how you sum up the situation- it doesn't matter what Greece needs, they don't get offered it because the politicians involved don't want to try to explain why they did the right thing- the only viable thing- to their voters.
And that is how you sum up the situation- it doesn't matter what Greece needs, they don't get offered it because the politicians involved don't want to try to explain why they did the right thing- the only viable thing- to their voters.
You forgot to add "and it's all Germany's fault" 😉
Why not just imagine it in, like you do all the other times?
Tell you something though, the responsibility for the failure to put a credible offer on the table [i]can[/i] fairly be levelled at the Germans, they're not the only people against it but they're the ones that could turn it around. With great power, and all that.
ninfan - Member
Just imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff
tbh if people are for the concept of an ever closer union and ultimately a united states of Europe, they are going to have to accept that.
It's pretty much the biggest eye opener for me about the whole EU project tbh.
[quote=Northwind ]What the greeks have rejected- rightly- is a bailout that makes things worse for them without fixing the problem.
Exactly. The issue isn't that they won't tighten their belts. It's that tightening their belts will just postpone the day of reckoning. A credible deal would be that they tighten their belts in exchange for a debt write off or some similar deal which offers them a way out of the mess. Nobody expects Greece to have their debt written off and for them to then continue living beyond their means - that is a strawman used by the Germany apologists like footflaps.
Oh, and here we go again:
[quote=footflaps ]You forgot to add "and it's all Germany's fault"
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[quote=ninfan ]Just imagine being an [s]Estonian[/s] EZ or [s]Slovakian[/s] EZ politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a [s]Greek[/s] EZ debt writeoff