[Closed] Graphic Designers: What's the legality of using the Johnston typeface?

Seeing as the font is legally available to buy then as long as you are not implying any sort of endorsement of your clients product by London Transport I can't see what they can do.

Yeah, my main concern was LT getting funny about it and hauling my sorry arse into court. I want to use Johnston because it's an iconic typeface associated with London, and therefore very apt. I am planning a cheeky little nod to the LT 'style', but am aware that I need to keep it unique and distinct.

It's the context of the site, that I',m thinking about. Wouldn';t be a problem if it were a cake making business in Cornwall, but I have to b careful about LT coming and saying 'oi that looks too much like our style you cheeky bugger, people will think it's part of our stuff'.

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/media/fonts/nj-licenserequest.asp

and

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/new_johnston_typeface_opentype_f

Thanks Clubber, very helpful of you.

A non-exclusive licence to download and use the Typeface ("the Licence") is only available to a company ("the Company") associated with the Corporation as licensees or contractors

Does this mean I have to be a 'company associated with' LT? 🙁

Another issue is that this website will potentially be commercial at some stage, so that's another worry.

So does it mean that unless I'm 'associated' with LT, I can't use it?

LT are very strong on IP and will almost certainly pursue if they find you using it commercially. we have LT fonts and have had to sign up to fairly bluntly worded restrictions.
Why not use Gill Sans instead - its almost the same (except for the diamond point).

You can use the typeface (within it's own license, of course). I guess what you can't do is make a product that could misrepresent London Transport. Just using the same typeface wouldn't do that, so really your question shouldn't be about the font at all.
ps if LT really have a problem with others using Johnstons font then they should stop using it and get a new one designed exclusive for their own use.

This

Why not use Gill Sans instead - its almost the same (except for the diamond point).

Most people would never spot the missing diamond.

If you think that it could become commercial then IMO you'd be stupid to use the Johnstone typeface now.

So if you buy this font set from Linotype are you saying you can't use it!

http://www.linotype.com/152282/itcjohnston-family.html

[cough] Johnson and more recently New Johnson were designed explicitly for use by LT companies. The restriction may actually only apply to New Johnson as that is the current TfL (LT) font.

Great stuff people, this is very helpful. Thanks.

I was afraid this might be the case. It's fairly rare that an entire typeface is part of a brand identity, so I thought I'd better check.

Shame. Although Gil Sans is, as you say [b]aP[/b], just as good. It looks very similar, and has the same feel. Do like Johnston though.

I think all London-born people should have the right to use it...

I guess what you can't do is make a product that could misrepresent London Transport.

That's actually kind of possible... 😀

ps if LT really have a problem with others using Johnstons font then they should stop using it and get a new one designed exclusive for their own use.

Erm I think it kind of is their own typeface!

([b]aP[/b] this is going to involve you at some stage, so we need to meet to discuss matters over [s]tea[/s] [s]coffee[/s] beer)

Trust me i'm a typeface designer 🙂
It's Johnston, see --> http://www.identifont.com/show?1YO
The versions of the 'London Underground' font that are commercially available, you are free to use (once purchased of course), but, see my earlier post.

I know several people who collect London Underground-esque logos and graphics from around the world. Sad isn't it...

ps if LT really have a problem with others using Johnstons font then they should stop using it and get a new one designed exclusive for their own use.

Erm I think it kind of is their own typeface!

Erm No it isn't :-p

So hang on it's getting confuddling...

So it's ok to use the older Johnston fonts? Just not the latest one (New Johnston?)?
😕

Erm No it isn't :-p

[pantomime mode] Oh yes it is! [/pantomime mode]

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnston_(typeface)#History ]

The typeface was commissioned in 1913 by Frank Pick, Commercial Manager of the Underground Electric Railways Company of London (also known as 'The Underground Group'), as part of his plan to strengthen the company's corporate identity, and introduced in 1916.[2] In 1933, The Underground Group was absorbed by the London Passenger Transport Board and the typeface was adopted as part of the London Transport brand.

beer - YAY!

I am planning a cheeky little nod to the LT 'style'

Well, even if you use Gill or something instead, if they think you might be passing yourself off as being linked to them, or approved by them, by copying their ID, then they may sue.

[geek]I prefer the "R" in Johnston by the way, don't think Gill added anything useful when he "updated" things.[/geek]

So it's ok to use the older Johnston fonts? Just not the latest one (New Johnston?)?

[geek]I prefer the "R" in Johnston by the way, don't think Gill added anything useful when he "updated" things.[/geek]

😀 I think my friends get little perturbed sometimes when we're out, and I spot a nice logo or typeface or something!

'Ooh! look at that! How lovely!'

'Er, it's a logo...'

'But you don't understand! Look how beautiful it is!'

'Yeah right. Great. Can we go now?'

Well short version - Any font sold to you, legally, by a 'reputable' software company, you are ok to use, legally.

Yes, but the problem I'm having, is that the 'product' may in some way be compared with LT's own stuff, and people might possibly think that LT are in some way linked. I've got to avoid that happening, and need to know exactly where I stand on this.

This is why corps & brands now are using exclusively designed typefaces more and more.

This is why I'm trying to teach myself how to create fonts. People seem a little shocked that an entire 26-letter alphabet, upper and lower case with numbers and punctuation marks etc would cost them silly money.

[b]aP.[/b] let's make it happen. When you about? I'm going to be in St John's Wood on Friday after 5 I'd imagine, can drop into town from there.

New Johnston (what they use currently like) is ONLY available under licence from TfL. It was designed exclusively for their use.

I was always under the impression, possibly a mistaken one, that Gill was the face used for the iconic Underground maps and signage. Always liked Gill, despite Gill himself being a pretty vile human being. I'd use Gill, meself, just 'cos of it's historical connection, and also the fact Gill did the stonework on the front of the BBC building.

Gill worked on Johnston's original font, for the London Underground, while he was studying under him. He later updated it to create Gill Sans, for LNER's classic posters, which in turn made it THE BEST FONT FOR A CLASSIC FEELING ENGLISH POSTER - EVER. Come on, keep up...

You're right though, let's not get going into the personal life of Gill - shudder.

Was wondering why folk were on about, until I delved a bit deeper:

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gill ]

"After the initial shock, […] as Gill's history of adulteries, incest, and experimental connection with his dog became public knowledge in the late 1980s, the consequent reassessment of his life and art left his artistic reputation strengthened. Gill emerged as one of the twentieth century's strangest and most original controversialists, a sometimes infuriating, always arresting spokesman for man's continuing need of God in an increasingly materialistic civilization, and for intellectual vigour in an age of encroaching triviality."

Dirty bastard. Good at making fonts though. I'm with you there Kelvin.

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I'm glad it's not just me. I do get excited about fonts and logos and that though. Some of my mates think I'm a bit odd.

You are a bit odd. Don't worry about it though.

😆

Wibble.

In 1997, London Transport Museum licensed the original Johnston typeface exclusively to P22 Type Foundry, [b]available commercially as Johnston Underground[/b]. Johnston Underground included Regular, Bold, and Extras weights, with the Extra containing only ornamental symbols. http://www.p22.com/products/underground.html
If you buy the p22 fonts, you can use them. As i say it's not using this font that is your problem. I'm not sure what territory TL can claim over 'branding', after all are you making transport signage?

Johnston isn't a current TfL font and as you say is commercially available
However, New Johnston is the current TfL font and is only available for use under specific license from TfL.

So I can use older Johnston fonts then?

Yippee!

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This thread has been more enlightening, informative and interesting than I could possibly have imagined. Thank you all.

Just dont get me started on the Calvert & Kinneir fonts for the british motorway signs... 😉

OOOOOHHHH!

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(Gets too excited. Has to have a lie-down)

They're selling Calvert's railway font now by the way... silly money though.

I was nearly headhunted to run DRU....
how surprising is that?

The only surprise is that they din't ask me. 🙁