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[Closed] Government Plans To Axe Unfair Dismissal

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oh, looks like I read rather too much into it 😳


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 2:51 pm
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TJ.....I just checked with my Head of MacroEconomic Research

"Remind him that between 2000 and 2007 German and French unemployment never got below 8%. In Britain it never got above 6%."


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 2:57 pm
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TJ, I've quoted nothing out of context. in fact, you even followed it up with


So its either in and use our influence to get decision made our way or out, have no influence, lose manufacture and trade.

contrasted with

I did say it as that is what will happen. what I did not say is I believed the low tax low regulation economy was a good thing. It is not.

So, are you telling us now that losing manufacture and trade would be a good thing? if it is such a bad thing, why were you so keen to tell us that it would be a disaster? You made no mention whatsoever of being a low tax, low regulation economy being a bad thing on the thread about Europe, you're only flip flopping around now because you know that you've dug a hole for yourself.

And, frankly, trying to use the "ooh, he insulted me" defence, given your treatment of people on the thread discussing the insulation in your flat, is bloody hilarious!


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:03 pm
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And, frankly, trying to use the "ooh, he insulted me" defence, given your treatment of people on the thread discussing the insulation in your flat, is bloody hilarious!

Quite.

Howver, it seems pretty clear that his comment isn't a contradiction. The UK is low tax. TJ never said that he thought that was a good thing, just that in the overall balance that is part of what helps us get investment at present and based on the current economic setup of us and our competitor EU countries. In his ideal world no doubt we'd be higher tax but you can't instantly change from one to the other.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:06 pm
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TJ.....I just checked with my Head of MacroEconomic Research

"Remind him that between 2000 and 2007 German and French unemployment never got below 8%. In Britain it never got above 6%."

Methodology of collecting figures? My understanding is when you use the internationally recognised figures the difference is much less than the double you claim it to be.

Germany now has lower unemployment than we do.

Zulu - you are insinuating I said the low tax / low regulation economy was a good thing when I did not say that.

Its frankly typical of you to distort things in this way and and why your posts are widely ignored - a policy I shall return to

Edit - thank you clubber


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:10 pm
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Zulu - you are insinuating I said the low tax / low regulation economy was a good thing when I did not say that.

well, you clearly stated that [b]NOT[/b] being one was a bad thing

its frankly typical of you to distort things in this way and and why your posts are widely ignored - a policy I shall return to

Ah, the La,La,La variant of the Edinburgh defence,


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:18 pm
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well, you clearly stated that NOT being one was a bad thing

Yes, but in context, that's only about the here and now, not about the long term. As I said, you can't instantly go from one to the other.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:20 pm
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Do you think he understood my explaination, or is he fervently googling his main arguement?


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:22 pm
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well, you clearly stated that NOT being one was a bad thing

Where? 🙄


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:22 pm
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I think/hope he got it 😀


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:22 pm
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tootall - what explanation? I did not see one


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:23 pm
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If you tried to recreate German labour laws in the UK, you'd potentially shut off that free flow of people and ideas.

Is that shorthand for **** over less people than currently and have a really successful economy by comparision, (one which you may be forgiven for forgetting has managed to reabsorb the Eastern German state and be the powerhouse of the eurozone in recent times?)


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:24 pm
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Where? 🙄

Sorry TJ - I thought you were ignoring my posts... 😆


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:25 pm
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I think/hope he got it

tootall - what explanation? I did not see one

WHHHOOOOOOSSSHHHHHH

😥


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:38 pm
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mcboo - Member

"Remind him that between 2000 and 2007 German and French unemployment never got below 8%. In Britain it never got above 6%."

I'm curious... During those years, if anyone had said "Look, our unemployment figures are lower than Germany", what are the odds you'd have responded "But that's only because the government have fudged the figures and reclassified unemployed people as unable to work and put them on invalidity etc etc"


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:46 pm
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think/hope he got it

tootall - what explanation? I did not see one

WHHHOOOOOOSSSHHHHHH

as far as I can see Tootall you havent said anything yet, now maybe I am really stupid so would you do the decent thing and let me (and I believe TJ) in on what it is your trying to express.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 3:59 pm
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Now, who would you believe when it comes to the analysis/collation of figures such as unemployment rates, a "Head of Macro Economic Research" or a "Medical Professional"?

Staggering sometimes, isn't it?


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:01 pm
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TooTall - Member

Should read "Incompetant head teachers recycle incompet [b][u]A[/u][/b] nt teachers"

Let me correct that for you, as it should not read that at all:

Should read "Incompetent head teachers recycle incompetent teachers"

I really hope you get it now. You do get it now, don't you?

HTH


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:04 pm
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Does anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:06 pm
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right, so the point can still stand but I spelt a word wrong? Glad you wasted so much time on it.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:06 pm
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Ta clubber 😳


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:06 pm
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coffeeking - Member

Does anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.

Nope - so long as it is done fairly


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:07 pm
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Does anyone actually know anything about Free Schools and Academies and getting rid of crap teachers? Are there different rules, I know I worked at an Academy myself so should know, but well it never came up.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:08 pm
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coffeeking +1

Should lazy workers not pulling their own weight be allowed to cling to a job ....or should they be sacked. Discuss.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:08 pm
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Does anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.

No, but they can already be dealt with currently by any competent manager/hr department.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:13 pm
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Does anyone actually know anything about Free Schools and Academies and getting rid of crap teachers?

As I understand it the teachers in a free school or Academy are employed by the school itself and answerable to the headteacher and the governors. In a regular comprehensive they are employed by the LEA. LEAs havent been exactly rigorous in their HR policies which is why so few bad teachers have been properly held to account.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:20 pm
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right, so the point can still stand but I spelt a word wrong? Glad you wasted so much time on it.

You are a teacher aren't you?


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:23 pm
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You are a teacher aren't you?

Yes, whats your point caller?

Mcboo, so that means there's no difference at all doesnt it, I mean in reality? Head teachers and governors do the hiring and firing at normal schools, LEA's just hold the purse strings. Sounds to me like another one of Gove's new powers for teachers to disipline kids thing that was arriving in September. I for one have not been given any new powers, I was hoping for a cattle prod. I bet academies and free schools have to go thru' the competancy procedure the same as a normal school.

[i]heres some more spelling and grammar to correct Tootall[/i]


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:25 pm
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TandemJeremy - Member
MSP - qualifying period for tribunals went from 2 yrs to one in the late 90s.

However our employment legislation offers us much much less protection that the rest of europe - hence when one multinational wanted to close a plant they closed the british one a it was much cheaper to close than the German one

Exactly that has been my gripe for years and was hoping this would include employees the same writes
here.
But the Torys ruled this one out then.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:25 pm
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Does anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.

Theres such things in place already, just blame your managers not sorting it out.
The more you allow the harder you will be able to take such actions.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:29 pm
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Mcboo, so that means there's no difference at all doesnt it, I mean in reality? Head teachers and governors do the hiring and firing at normal schools, LEA's just hold the purse strings

On the face of it yes, what's the difference? LEAs (and here we do get into a bit of conjecture) are generally staffed by professional educationalists, so by their nature tend to take a more indulgent view towards teaching standards. If you believe the reformers the single biggest obstacle to driving up standards in schools is driving up standards of teaching. That means applying pressure to failing staff and I'm afraid pushing out those who shouldnt be in the classroom. LEAs just havent been fulfilling that side of the bargain......18 teachers sacked for failure in 40 years tells it's own story.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:39 pm
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In Germany for example, the largely static workforce means that you don't get this cross polination of ideas and therefore you don't get radical innovation.

Good points but some of the reasons the Germans don't travel is the pay is very good
and working conditions are excellent.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:40 pm
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In Germany for example, the largely static workforce means that you don't get this cross polination of ideas and therefore you don't get radical innovation.

Yet they seem to patent so many more ideas than the UK, if I were a more sceptical person, I might think that statement was just made up nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_patents#Top_10_countries_in_2007


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 4:58 pm
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Think your forgotten we don't manufacture much here now
and the working class workforce now stack shelves at Tesco and work in MCDonalds
and other such fast food places, serving waste busting food or call centres.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 5:04 pm
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18 teachers sacked for failure in 40 years tells it's own story

honest question and I dont know the answer but are you getting confused by the numbers being stopped from teaching rather than sacked. As said most will go well before they are pushed.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 5:50 pm
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grantway - Member

Think your forgotten we don't manufacture much here now

Myth... Mostly perpetuated by looking at manufacturing as a % of GDP, or as % of employment, rather than looking at it in isolation. Obviously if other industries grow faster, that causes the % of GDP to fall... And as mechanisation increases, numbers of people employed fall. Neither means that manufacturing is falling.

But if you look at it in terms of production and in terms of value, manufacturing was at a record high in 2007, and has grown steadily in the last 50 years. In 2006, we were the 6th biggest manufacturer in the world, graded by value of output.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:06 pm
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something a little more up to date:

[url= http://www.****/news/article-1288497/China-worlds-manufacturer-ending-Americas-110-year-reign.html ]

Britain now ranks seventh the world's manufacturing league with economists warning that position is under threat from emerging nations.
[/url]

What such figures don't show is where all the money actually goes. A lot of it ends up in offshore bank accounts, and a lot of tax isn't paid...

The UK is slipping downwards and will continue to do so. It's at the end of it's period of economic dominance and will be soon be overtaken by emerging economic powers like Brazil and India.

The UK was responsible for 2.6 per cent of world manufacturing output, down from 5.5 per cent in 1980.

That's less than half what it was 30 years ago. And I don't really see much chance of that slide being reversed, tbh...


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:29 pm
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honest question and I dont know the answer but are you getting confused by the numbers being stopped from teaching rather than sacked. As said most will go well before they are pushed.

Sure, but thats true of any line of work, people get a quiet tap on the shoulder and off they quietly go. But it can't be particularly the case with state teaching.....can it?


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:30 pm
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Yet they seem to patent so many more ideas than the UK, if I were a more sceptical person, I might think that statement was just made up nonsense.

It's actually a statement based on patent data, rather ironically. If you study the patent data over the last 20 years, as I rather sadly, have done, you'll find that the US and UK registered companies tend to file patents covering radical innovation, i.e. new inventions, whereas German companies tend to file patents focused on process refinement.

I can point you in the direction of the literature if you like? Have a look at 'Divergent Capitalisms; The Social Structuring and Change of Business Systems' Whitley 1998.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:54 pm
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Sure, but thats true of any line of work, people get a quiet tap on the shoulder and off they quietly go. But it can't be particularly the case with state teaching.....can it?

depends if they have not been Tupe over to a private sector
where you keep your terms and conditions up to One year
and you will loose your years service after that too.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:55 pm
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Myth...

Would you all like to know another myth?

The world is no more globalised now, relatively speaking, than it was at the turn of the 19th Century.

This is based on the percentages of GDP generated by foreign trade, for the developed nations at the time. That level is fractionally higher now than it was before, but not significantly.

Globalisation is real, but it's been real for the last 100 years or so.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:57 pm
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But it can't be particularly the case with state teaching.....can it?

Oh yes, happens all the time. It involves being monitored all the time, having books checked all the time. I will freely admit I dont do what my school says is the minimum of marking, apart from anything else it would take me about 20 hrs a week. No one ever seems to get too bothered by it though. If your a rubbish teacher these things are checked regularly.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:57 pm
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What such figures don't show is where all the money actually goes. A lot of it ends up in offshore bank accounts, and a lot of tax isn't paid...

The UK is slipping downwards and will continue to do so. It's at the end of it's period of economic dominance and will be soon be overtaken by emerging economic powers like Brazil and India.

The UK was responsible for 2.6 per cent of world manufacturing output, down from 5.5 per cent in 1980.
That's less than half what it was 30 years ago. And I don't really see much chance of that slide being reversed, tbh...

Same thing with Australia I know a lot of the Kitchen/furniture makers have most if not all there
furniture made in China


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 6:59 pm
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most of my repetitive sized furniture is made around Manchester and
we just concentrate on making the special sized cabinets now.

Its cost affective and i am also keeping people employed within this country.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 7:03 pm
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Elfinsafety - Member

That's less than half what it was 30 years ago. And I don't really see much chance of that slide being reversed, tbh...

Oh Elfin... You know perfectly well that none of what you posted points to a reduction in UK manufacturing- only to a greater increase elsewhere. And frankly, for a country our size to be "only" the 7th biggest manufacturer in the world, is not something to be pessimistic about.


 
Posted : 26/10/2011 7:57 pm
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