And they don’t make intensive care ventilators, only anaesthetic vents - it’s far easier to ventilate normal lungs in a mandatory mode in an anaesthetised patient than it is to ventilate people weaning from sedation in a spontaneously-triggered pressure support mode.
Don’t forget the the eu offer was not just about ventilators it was also about PPE, that is desperately wanted.
The first round was only PPE (and testing kits), ventilators are for later rounds, due to the lag in ramping up production that others have mentioned. The first round resulted in MORE PPE being sourced than the target given. Which can only be a good thing for our friends working on the front line in our neighbouring countries. Hopefully we’ll be fully involved in all subsequent rounds from now on…
Dumb question. Do those Dyson / Gtech ventilators re-circ the patients 'out' breath , then add a squirt of pure O2 as a top up for the squeeze bag to blow? Looking at the pics I cant see how the exhale is exhausted but my brain is saying it has to because of CO build up
And why isnt the push rod glued to the bag to blow and suck, maybe not robust enough
Beer engine in a pub would work , special one valves called aspirators could be used to dribble o2 in as well, and lets face it there are thousands of them doing nothing. Don't know if the std half pint pull would be sufficient airflow though , probably not
with a doctor quoted as questioning whether ventilation is actually effective for the most seriously affected patients.
I'm sold. Evidence-based medicine be damned eh? He has a point, but to be honest, to quote every paper ever written, "further study is required...".
What ventilators for Africa? That's all. If the G-tech machine meets the appropriate technical requirements, they'll have no issues finding people who may have a need. It wasn't the Spitfire that won the war.
Anaesthetic ventilators usually work on a circle system, so they recirculate the gas in the circuit, passing it through a soda lime canister to absorb the CO2. A certain amount of gas, usually <1 l/min at steady state, is fed into the circuit (usually air/O2/anaesthetic agent) and then the excess spills out through a valve into the scavenging system
ITU ventilators are slightly different, there’s a one-way flow through the system with much greater flows, part of which is called the bias flow which prevents re-breathing of CO2. The inspiratory pressure is usually generated by a turbine rather than a bag-in-bottle or a piston (which are commonly used in anaesthetic ventilator circuits) because a turbine can react faster to augment a breath the patient is trying to take; commonly ITU patients are spontaneously triggering the vent whereas anaesthetised patients are on mandatory modes.
The other major headache is providing the necessary gas pipeline flows for additional ventilators, not to mention stopping the VIE freezing solid.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52087002
University College London engineers worked with clinicians at UCLH and Mercedes Formula One to build the device, which delivers oxygen to the lungs without needing a ventilator.
Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) devices are already used in hospitals but are in short supply.
China and Italy used them to help Covid-19 patients.
Forty of the new devices have been delivered to ULCH and to three other London hospitals. If trials go well, up to 1,000 of the CPAP machines can be produced per day by Mercedes-AMG-HPP, beginning in a week's time.
I’m assuming these are the equivalent of the devices in Italy where patients have a plastic “bubble”?
The Mercedes F1 device received regulatory approval today with first deliveries scheduled next week.
Here’s a piece from the German press on one of their ventilator manufacturers - Germany ordered “early” but even so there still can’t get enough of them.
From that article
The U.S. authorities have made a request for 100,000 ventilators. That likely exceeds the annual production capacity of all manufacturers.
Good luck relying on existing manufacturers.
FT is reporting orders for 5,000 Smith portable and 5,000 Penlon theater machines from Ventilator Challenge UK and another 10,000 critical care from Babcock/Drager.
10000 Dräger Evitas would be very good news.
10000 Smiths less so.
Can you quote it as it’s paywalled.
The Guardian has a substantially similar story without a paywall.
The missing bit is:
"The government confirmed on Monday it had also issued a letter of intent for another 10,000 machines to defence contractor Babcock International, which is working with Germany’s Drägerwerk, one of the biggest ventilator makers, on a critical care device. This design is also subject to regulatory sign-off. Babcock and Drägerwerk declined to comment."
Some other sources, not paywalled.
How are we doing with these ventilators? Did Dyson get approval?
My son works for Babcock and I am sure he said they are ready to start delivering.
Interesting
Yes. But look what is happening in the US as States and the Government compete for resources.
Meanwhile in India they have reverse engineered a simpler ventilator from 20+ years ago, which while only 'nearly as good' as a modern ventilator, uses less than 150 parts, all from existing supply chains outwith medical, and claim that subject to testing they could deliver thousands of the things within a week, and plan on open source the details.
That Scottish article smacks of playing nationalist tunes.
We produce a key component for many of these ventilator manufacturers. We’ve taken 4 years worth of orders in 2 weeks & still getting enquiries for multiples of 10k units from all over the world. Desperately trying to quadruple production. We are working around the clock trying to keep up & upscale at the same time. Never known pressure like it. The amount of effort & selfless contribution being shown by the manufacturing industry is staggering.
Not related to the Dyson project but I had an email at work today where one of the groups is searching around industry for stock of certain components. Quite sobering that success isn't hinging on the complex bits, but more on supply of a few minor electrical components.
Really hope (but doubt) this might finally focus government on the need to support a more diverse and self sufficient manufacturing capability in the UK.
BBC reporting the Maclaren advanced CPAPs are arriving in hospitals. 600 made yesterday & 1000 today.
Let's hope that whoever is making them they ship asap.👍
From what I understand the GTech ones didn't pass the longer term testing procedures or have the advanced features.
However, they used a simple new design using existing parts that was manually controlled and could be mass produced quickly, easily and cheaply.
Call me fussy, but I'd rather have a bit of GTech shed engineering keeping my lungs going than, well, nothing...
Why not give them a million quid and say make 10,000 pronto?
Call me fussy, but I’d rather have a bit of GTech shed engineering keeping my lungs going than, well, nothing…
Why not give them a million quid and say make 10,000 pronto?
Like the 3.5 million testing kits the government bought which they now admit don't work?
It doesn't make sense to spend money on equipment that isn't fit for purpose. Has anyone confirmed that the GTech breathing aid would actually support Covid patients?
The whole ventilator story has gone very quiet. I’m not sure whether the dreadful uk journalists have just moved on to a new favourite story, we actually have enough, or if any are getting delivered?
I haven’t seen a sensible question asked at the presser in weeks. Purely digging for dirt they know they will never get.
Good video on why a lot of the shed ones (I think this includes the gtech) are actually no good...
That is a very well presented and informative video by someone who clearly knows what he is talking about.
Would you still want to be hooked up to a shed breather if it was damaging what was left of the working parts of your lungs?
Sounds like those McLaren/UCH CPAPs are good then?
Like the 3.5 million testing kits the government bought which they now admit don’t work?
You mean the ones where the order was conditional on proof that they work, and because they didn't work it cost us nothing?
That ventillator vid was good, cheers for that.
I was intrigued with the Tesla ventilator which uses their car parts and there’s an interesting take on it from a nurse.
Sounds like those McLaren/UCH CPAPs are good then?
@dantsw13 They’ll be fine, if they are as rumoured reverse engineered Whisperflows. Only concern is oxygen consumption; not just about what the VIE can provide but how fast it can flow through the hospital manifold…
grumpysculler
MemberLike the 3.5 million testing kits the government bought which they now admit don’t work?
You mean the ones where the order was conditional on proof that they work, and because they didn’t work it cost us nothing?
Source? The reporting has stated exactly the opposite
^^ Yeah, everything I have read has said that the money was paid whether the kits worked or not @grumpysculler ?
You mean the ones where the order was conditional on proof that they work, and because they didn’t work it cost us nothing?
Unfortunately it looks like we already paid & can't get a refund
Problem was that because we left it a month too late before ordering the antigen kits, once we realised that we shouldn't be ignoring WHO advice there were none left to buy, Hancock didn't want to make the same mistake again, so he rushed to get in on these quick, hence this costly mistake.
The UK government is failing to procure sufficient PPE, spent an undisclosed amount on millions of testing kits that don't work, and is delivering unconvincing spin about producing thousands of ventilators using novel designs.
So we already have the Maclaren CPAPs operational, approved & built, the ParaPacs are hitting the NHS, now the Penlon is approved with production up & running.
At the very least we will now have ventilator capacity at the Nightingale’s for a subsequent second wave of infections.
I would hope some of the cheaper offerings like the GTech, we didn’t end up approving, are still useful for the undeveloped world, especially as they were designed to run off-grid.
CPAPs operational, approved & built, the ParaPacs are hitting the NHS, now the Penlon is approved with production up & running.
At the very least we will now have ventilator capacity at the Nightingale’s for a subsequent second wave of infections.
I would hope some of the cheaper offerings like the GTech, we didn’t end up approving, are still useful for the undeveloped world, especially as they were designed to run off-grid.
So I've just pointed a contact at this thread, your reply in particular dants, to someone closely involved with the challenge ventilator project, his reply was initially unprintable!
He then went into diplomatic mode and suggested that they had a limited use and may, just may have very limited use as a stopgap.none of them have any way of seriously preventing barotrauma to already seriously damaged diseased lungs. 'it feels like a PR stunt' their words not mine...
The refusal to join the consortium sounds more and more like negligence. Idiology over doing the best for the public good
Re PPE, this morning Hancock appeared before a virtual select committee and claimed that while the supply of gowns was "tight" he expected to be able to provide adequate supplies for the weekend. About 4 hours later they announced the change in recommendations to include going without gowns and reusing single use gowns. Why does anyone believe a word he says?
Meanwhile that change in recommendations has been spun by the department of health as ""New clinical advice has been issued today to make sure that if there are shortages in one area, front-line staff know what PPE to wear instead to minimise risk."
And the company I work for has mobilised anyone with 3d printers at home to print face shield frames and we are delivering them to the local hospitals and doctors surgeries along with hole-punched clear shields.
The flag ship NHS is being supplied by hobby engineers yet a huge percentage of the population believe Boris and his mates are doing a great job (and are now proudly wearing NHS lapel badges during their press conferences even though they have screwed the NHS for a decade).
On my wife's ward 16 nurses are currently off, 6 have tested positive and the other 10 are awaiting results. In the meantime my wife and all of the other nurses/staff are going untested and are visiting other wards.
My partner works in a lab in a South Eastern hospital.
Ironically their over staffed staffed and quiet at the moment. A couple of people from there were asked to go down and help move some bodies in the make shift mortuaries today.
By makeshift,I mean they are the units you see in the back of lorries delivering frozen goods.
They are having problems keeping the units cold enough and the bodies are starting to smell.
The very vivid description she just told me makes me very inclined to stay the f*** indoors and do as told.
