Forum menu
Isn't there someone on STW who continually reminds us there is no excuse for speeding, including the old "if I knew what the speed limit was I would have not been speeding". 😉
I think he got a ban
Like has been said, street lights always treat it as a 30 unless you defiantly see other signs be it 20, 40 etc.
Only 30 mph doesn't have to be signed when there are street lights spaced correctly, 20 mph HAS to have repeaters no matter what along with 40 and upwards.
20 zones are different as they get treated as " self managed " by use of speed bumps.
Good tip off Neal regarding looking into side roads to their limits.
It also works the other way with repeater signs, there is a 40 mph zone near me where all the repeaters have been nicked and if you miss the single 40 sign, you can go for 3/4 mile before seeing another 40 sign.
Not a massive problem but the students who go out on test will fail for going too slow if they miss it.
Isn't there someone on STW who continually reminds us there is no excuse for speeding
There isn't, I'm not making excuses, it was my fault for not seeing the sign 🙂
I know that road, there is a lot of roads like like that in Liverpool and up to Southport/Ormskirk.
Dual carriageways with breaks in and cars parked on the verges/hardstandings or on the left lane. Some seem to be 40mph, most used to be, but a lot are now 30mph and the limits dont seem to make much sense in that some 40's should be 30's.
Some of the limit signs are hard to spot too when you are busy watching out for irate locals doing 50+ behind you in blacked out BMWs or 4x4s or taxis pulling away without indicating etc etc.
I just tend to stick to 30 when it doubt (urban area with street lights) and just plod along unless I know it's definitely 40.
If you are unsure, look down side roads.If there aren't any 30mph signs on entering them, you are in a 30mph zone.
TOP TIP
never knew that the no signs meant 30 either though I always default to that anyway
OP what if a small child had been crossing this road late at night from the local council estate to fetch his mum some more Cigs?
You'd have cut the boy in two at 40mph. At 30mph you might have just badly maimed him
A road my mother lives on and has driven for over 40 years was a 40. They took all the 40 signs off the posts and at the beginning of the road, a new sign with a 30 mph approx 6 inches round, as the only telling point in a sign with enough wordage to take 5 mins to read. She got caught 2 days after it was changed. If they want it to make you do 30, they would have more visible signage at times. One dual carriageway in Reading was a notorius place, which camera vans parked in coned off areas ( one rule for us etc). Was in national press for its money making ways. All it needed was the signage to be visible from the overgrown bushes that grew in front of it to advise drivers. Regardless of bloody lampost measurements.
Edge lane LOL... I love it.. I got that in about 1995 "we've recently changed from 40-30"... in their defence... they had.... hoever that was 1995 !
Was it by the fuel station just where you have the separator section ? I think it used to be a Texaco...
I didn't know that no signs meant 30mph
I see statements like this a scary number of times on threads about driving. Can people please go and have a look at [url= https://www.gov.uk/highway-code ]the Highway Code[/url], please?
The facts that red and amber lights on traffic lights means 'stop' seems to have passed most drivers round here by.
TOP TIP
never knew that the no signs meant 30 either though I always default to that anyway
Most people learn this from a speed awareness course to be fair 🙂
It's in the Highway Code but I've not met anyone who's read it post passing their test. I'm surprised it hasn't been added as a requirement by my companies responsible care department though, had to do a half day eco driving course the other week.. which involved driving around when I'd normally have been sat at a desk. They didn't see the irony.
The national speed limit in the Uk is 30mph unless otherwise stated, if you are unsure of the speed limit you should assume its 30. The presence of street lighting is what defines a 30mph zone, unless there are repeater signs overruling this. Motorways have their own set of rules.
I consider myself to have a reasonably good understanding of the rules of the road, but this one still eludes me, even after it is explained.
I assume this includes where you see a national speed limit sign? (this could be where I'm getting it wrong?) And is it only in urban areas? If so how do you define an urban area? And If not, it is almost certainly not enforced, or even understood by those that should be enforcing it.
It would be annoying to have to do the course too, being that I'm constantly arguing in favour of speed limits anyway.
Will vary on who you get leading the course I suppose, but the one I did was good. Picked up some decent safety tips. It's not all about speed. And there's no "you've been a very naughty boy", or anything like that. Not like the patronising letter I got from the Police...
@jambalaya - fair enough. Maybe being gobby and abusive is a fail, a light nap still counts as a pass. I went to the speed awareness course with a pretty cynical attitude but came away having learned quite a lot. More than I expected.
Some of the data they use is a bit questionable but fair play to the presenters who do this day after day and somehow maintain an air of cheerfulness!
I consider myself to have a reasonably good understanding of the rules of the road, but this one still eludes me, even after it is explained.
That's because it is incorrect.
molgrips - MemberIt is, yes. My fault for missing the sign. Just not much margin for error in that particular spot!
Point of order; there is never one sign, there are always two, one on either side of the road, and in your case molgrips there are also massive 30 limit signs painted on each lane, so it begs the question: where exactly were you looking?
Number one cause of accidents; inattention.
Most people learn this from a speed awareness course to be fair
I did a "speed awareness" course as part of my Job, rather than after getting caught speeding.
I would recommend it to anyone really.
I learned a lot and I am a better driver because of it I reckon.
The problem with signs painted on the road is that traffic covers them up.
I was looking where I was going, and at the road, don't worry. However even when looking, you don't always see.
Can you honestly say, hand on heart, you've never missed a single thing ever whilst driving? I have on many occasions.
This is part of my annoyance with this - we all miss stuff, so Liverpool council really ought to put up more than one pair of signs...
[quote=sbob ]
I consider myself to have a reasonably good understanding of the rules of the road, but this one still eludes me, even after it is explained.
That's because it is incorrect.
Which bit? The street lights defining the 30 limit, the need to have repeaters to overrule that, or different rules for motorways?
so it begs the question: where exactly were you looking?
Number one cause of accidents; inattention.
Maybe he was paying attention to avoiding the other things around which he might hit, rather than some nominal rule which doesn't have a direct effect on his safety (working on the assumption it's a road which could easily be a 40 limit). Personally I'd far rather other drivers noticed people and other cars than every single sign lost amongst the clutter.
Can't believe I find myself defending molgrips' driving!
aracer - MemberOn which point can I be the first to suggest not doing the course. Unless that is you have so much holiday you don't know what to do with and wouldn't rather use a day's leave to go biking. Work out how much a day's unpaid leave would cost you and decide if it's really good value.
I chose to do the course and there were loads of places to do the course and also loads of time slots.
You used to have to do the course in the area where you got the fine, but now you can do it anywhere.
I got done in North Wales, but did the course in Peterborough; there was a 6pm start time, so I didn't have to take holiday. It worked out OK.
They were quite condescending on the course, but overall it was pretty good.
It was actually quite an eye opener how many people genuinely didn't have a clue about road signs/highway code etc. I thought I was pretty rusty, but compared to most of the other people there, I could have done the Highway Code as my Mastermind specialist subject.
First of all, I thought I was being a bit swotty, answering the questions but then realised that most people there just didn't know the answer.
There was a woman in her 50's there who apparently was doing 38 in a 30 and didn't really see the problem with it. The trainer was surprised she got offered the course, being that far over the limit. She was a teacher and drove kids around in the school minibus, but got all the speed limits wrong for that type of vehicle.....
Which bit?
That the national speed limit is 30.
Can't believe I find myself defending molgrips' driving!
someone has to, as after all the sanctimony he's come out with in the past he's in no position to defend himself! 😆
aracer - MemberMaybe he was paying attention to avoiding the other things around which he might hit, rather than some nominal rule which doesn't have a direct effect on his safety (working on the assumption it's a road which could easily be a 40 limit). Personally I'd far rather other drivers noticed people and other cars than every single sign lost amongst the clutter.
This +1.
On the way into Peterborough there is a dual carriageway with a number of speed limit changes - varying from NSL to 40. The main signs for the speed limit changes are on the exit of the roundabouts.
Now, personally I am generally looking at more important things while negotiating a roundabout.
Sure, there are repeater signs and I know the limits along that stretch so don't tend to look at them (could catch me out if they change them), but why not put the change of speed limit 100m before the roundabout, or 100m after? They are positioned at the most innappropriate place possible on the entire stretch of road all the way along.
It's because I'm now 'one of you' 🙂
I think the setting of the signs make a difference. Lots of background close to the signs makign them harder to spot, and it was at night with lots of street lighting (hah yes I know) so colours were a bit messed up.
Thinking of a DC limit near me, I've always thought the signs easy to spot, but they stand away from anything else which I think really helps.
[quote=stumpy01 ]The main signs for the speed limit changes are on the exit of the roundabouts.
Now, personally I am generally looking at more important things while negotiating a roundabout.
Sure, there are repeater signs and I know the limits along that stretch so don't tend to look at them (could catch me out if they change them), but why not put the change of speed limit 100m before the roundabout, or 100m after? They are positioned at the most innappropriate place possible on the entire stretch of road all the way along.
This +100. There's one near me which changes from a 70 to a 40 on the approach to a roundabout. I knew it was 40 after the roundabout, but it took me ages to work out where the speed limit signs were, because when I'm slowing for a roundabout I find I have other things to concentrate on.
someone has to, as after all the sanctimony he's come out with in the past he's in no position to defend himself!
Well I still think speed limits are a good thing, we should stick to them, and that people need to look out for the signs.
However I just wish the signs were more noticeable in this case. What's wrong with those big high viz ones covered in warnings? Can we apply for better signage?
molgrips - Member
The problem with signs painted on the road is that traffic covers them up.
Sounds like you need to increase the distance between you and the vehicle in front.
I was looking where I was going, and at the road, don't worry. However even when looking, you don't always see.
Sounds like you need to review your observation skills.
Can you honestly say, hand on heart, you've never missed a single thing ever whilst driving? I have on many occasions.
Impossible to say if I have not seen something as I would not have seen it, but I can honestly say that I've never had a speeding ticket.
This is part of my annoyance with this - we all miss stuff, so Liverpool council really ought to put up more than one pair of signs...
Liverpool council have not singled you out molgrips, the rules for signage of speed limits are the same for everyone the whole country over (with the odd exception like the New Forest).
I'd simply take this as a wake up call that maybe your driving isn't quite as good as you think it is.
Or that if you're going to be all holier than thou on driving threads that you will have to suck up people like me taking the piss when you do get it wrong.
FTW get a new set of plates made up with one digit incorrect, it'll save any future embarrassing forum threads 🙂
One of my motorbikes failed its first MOT in April because the number plate was not recognised on the system (something like that)
3 years with the wrong plate 🙂
Sounds like you need to review your observation skills.
Don't we all?
Impossible to say if I have not seen something as I would not have seen it, but I can honestly say that I've never had a speeding ticket.
Exactly. Up until last week, I'd never had one either. You could be next 🙂
Liverpool council have not singled you out molgrips, the rules for signage of speed limits are the same for everyone the whole country over
Of course - however the minimum is exceeded in many areas all over the country, this is a situation that would benefit from that approach.
people like me taking the piss
If this is piss taking it needs to be funnier and more flippant - otherwise it just looks like lecturing! 🙂
Or that if you're going to be all holier than thou on driving threads
My issue is with people thinking they don't need to stick to speed limits. This isn't me.
aracer - Member
I actually had that page open in a tab already.
It is incorrect.
If there are no signs then the speed limit is never 30.
30mph roads are always signed on entry, have repeaters or regular street lighting in place of repeaters, or in special cases have signage painted on the road surface.
If none of those signs are present, then for a car on a single carriageway road, the national speed limit is 60, though this varies for different vehicles, of course.
[quote=stumpy01 ]there was a 6pm start time, so I didn't have to take holiday.
That's unusual, or maybe new - when I got offered one it was just day time. Given the normal length of these courses wouldn't that finish rather late though (you'd have to put your foot down to get home in time for tea)?
It was actually quite an eye opener how many people genuinely didn't have a clue about road signs/highway code etc. I thought I was pretty rusty, but compared to most of the other people there, I could have done the Highway Code as my Mastermind specialist subject.
Which is the other reason I'd wonder about the benefit (and I'd imagine molgrips to have similar if not better HC knowledge than you and me). I might not have re-read the whole thing, but https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/highway-code is bookmarked for use in arguments on here! I'm also unsure of the point of being lectured about the importance of 30 limits when I stick religiously to those (last done for 57 in a 50 on a road which used to be NSL DC and no safety issues at the point I got caught - I slow down for the bit where there are safety issues - so my offence is choosing to ignore pointless speed limits).
thread needs more cutting and pasting IMHO
Junkyard - lazarusthread needs more cutting and pasting IMHO
Definitely.
Were you overtaking at the time?
[quote=sbob ]aracer - Member
> https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
br />
I actually had that page open in a tab already.
It is incorrect.
If there are no signs then the speed limit is never 30.
You're suggesting the government web page is incorrect? 😯
So I leave my house and drive down the road. I don't pass a sign. Does that mean the speed limit isn't 30?
I think you're getting confused because NSL is usually used as an abbreviation for "NSL outside built up areas".
30mph roads are always signed on entry
So are 60 limits.
so my offence is choosing to ignore pointless speed limits
And I don't even do that 🙂
So I leave my house and drive down the road. I don't pass a sign. Does that mean the speed limit isn't 30?
The street light spacing should define it as 30....
[quote=Junkyard ]thread needs more cutting
I'm trying my best
and pasting
doing that too
IMHO
Well you would think that
just going back to Butchers post...
The national speed limit in the Uk is 30mph unless otherwise stated, if you are unsure of the speed limit you should assume its 30. The presence of street lighting is what defines a 30mph zone, unless there are repeater signs overruling this. Motorways have their own set of rules.
I consider myself to have a reasonably good understanding of the rules of the road, but this one still eludes me, even after it is explained.I assume this includes where you see a national speed limit sign? (this could be where I'm getting it wrong?) And is it only in urban areas? If so how do you define an urban area? And If not, it is almost certainly not enforced, or even understood by those that should be enforcing it.
The meaning of the National Speed Limit sign is defined in the Highway Code and it is different depending on what vehicle you are driving.
You should not be recognising urban and rural settings in determining the speed limit at all. Maybe this is where you are going wrong?
molgrips - MemberDon't we all?
I regularly do.
Do you?
You could be next
I've spent my whole life not getting caught for the laws that I break, I don't intend in getting caught now.
the minimum is exceeded in many areas all over the country, this is a situation that would benefit from that approach
They have exceeded the minimum, stop making excuses.
If this is piss taking it needs to be funnier
It only matters that I find it funny. 😛
My issue is with people thinking they don't need to stick to speed limits. This isn't me.
You haven't stuck to the speed limit anyway!
Is it ok for you to unknowingly speed, yet not ok for people to choose a safe speed to drive at, despite this being exactly what you were unwittingly doing?
If I understand Butcher's question he is asking "what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?"
I [i]think[/i] the answer is 30 limit, since that is the applicable NSL for that area, but it would be a dozy bit of signing as it is bound to lead to confusion.
(Judging by the random brake lights at speed cameras round here, some people seem to struggle with the NSL on single and dual carriageways - never mind using that sign on an residential street).
I regularly do.
Do you?
Of course.
Is it ok for you to unknowingly speed, yet not ok for people to choose a safe speed to drive at, despite this being exactly what you were unwittingly doing?
Seriously? You think there's no moral difference between doing something deliberately and accidentally (whilst trying not to do it)?
However, I didn't say that it was ok to unknowingly speed. If you read the thread I'm not saying it's ok.
what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?
How far apart are the streetlights?
The meaning of the National Speed Limit sign is defined in the Highway Code and it is different depending on what vehicle you are driving.You should not be recognising urban and rural settings in determining the speed limit at all.
Urban and Rural are probably not the best choice of words, but the government do clearly state that the National Speed Limit is 30mph in 'Built-up areas', as per the link already posted:
[url=http://]www.gov.uk/speed-limits[/url]
I'm still not sure how a built-up area is defined?
[quote=molgrips ]You think there's no moral difference between doing something deliberately and accidentally (whilst trying not to do it)?
Of course not. There's a quite clear difference between deliberately driving at a safe speed for the conditions and not being capable of doing what you're trying to do.
There's a quite clear difference between deliberately driving at a safe speed for the conditions and not being capable of doing what you're trying to do
Since you're going down this route, I'll follow.
How do you know if it's a safe speed?
Just read something interesting on wikipedia whilst looking for the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_area_%28Highway_Code%29 ]official definition of "built-up area"[/url].
Apparently the TSRGD rules state they CANNOT put 30mph repeater signs on a street that has regular street lamps:
Direction 11 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (TSRGD 2002) defines the requirements for the placing of speed-limit repeater signs. This states that speed-limit repeater signs cannot be placed along a road on which there is carriageway lighting not more than 183 metres apart and which is subject to a 30 mph speed limit. The Department will not make exceptions to this rule.
So that may answer part of your point mol.
they CANNOT put 30mph repeater signs on a street that has regular street lamps:
Where the spacing is less than 183m
Why does everyone keep ignoring this bit?
Graham yes I read that too, and it's bizarre.