Eating fish is not good for the environment. I think people tend to think that it is because the damage is mostly out of sight and therefore out of mind. Fishing does huge damage to the ocean ecosystems which are absolutely essential to our continued survival as a species. Please don't encourage it.
I've been a vegetarian for over 30 years, so it always amuses me when people say that you will need to take loads of supplements if you go veggie. It's nonsense. Eat a balanced veggie diet and you'll be fine - try and survive on cheese sandwiches and you might have a problem.
Whilst I broadly see your point I think you have to factor in finance too.
Would be interesting if there was a comparison of nutrition v cost for different options.
Can't be much that has more nutrient per £££ than a can of sardines at 33p.
Fresh liver would be up there too.
Obviously it depends on your reasonings, but something perhaps to consider is that you don't have to "become" anything, you could just eat less of something or more of something else. People seem to tend towards rules and labels but I've never seen the point, if you want to eat a raw food diet for six days a week and then have a Sunday carvery blow-out then fill your boots.
Did it for about 10 years, no downsides apart from people wanting to talk about **** bacon.
Five posts in, this time. Being somethingtarian used to be a lot more difficult due to a lack of viable choice and options, but the only real downside I find these days is everyone else whining at you about it.
The top tip I got, from here, Cauldron sausages
That was likely to have been me, I'm quite a fan.
The 'real' meaty options have gone mainstream now too, things like Beyond Burger and Impossible Burger. I'm not entirely sure that it appeals to me but might be a positive step for people who are currently big meat-eaters and want a near like-for-like alternative.
For me (OP) I think some of it is going to be partly psychological. If I have steak or a burger I immediately think to pair it with chips. If I have bolognese then I am heavy on the sauce, rather than coating the pasta with it I dollop loads on top. If I have fresh fish I tend to think more along the lines of vegetables, fresh new potatoes, salad or maybe rice and beans. It will make me steer more towards a balanced healthier diet instead of the lazy shopping/cooking option
Makes sense, if it works for you then it works. Breaking habits is hard. I guess it's not dissimilar to quitting smoking or drinking, if you've done something for years then suddenly not doing it is tough.
In your case I'd suggest (in a blasé easier-to-say-than-do fashion) "don't do that then". Swap your steak and chips for steak and oven chips or potato wedges. Chuck a couple of diced peppers or other veg in your bolognaise to bulk it out, make the sauce from scratch with tinned toms / passata rather than sauce jars laden with sugar and salt. If you can open a jar, chuck in some herbs and warm it through, you can do exactly the same with a couple of cans of tomatoes. It takes a bit longer for the tomatoes to break down but it's no extra work, if you're time-poor then batch cook and start filling the freezer with individual portions in ziploc bags.
Stopped eating meat over a year ago now which is unusual for a shooter / deer stalker. But I have no regrets.
Have had 3 blood tests done and all is bang on, and I do not use any supplements.
Green veg will benefit you more than vitamin pills.
Am very partial to the veggie fry up pack in Morrisons just now, plant sliced sausage ! who'da thunk it ?
From a little while ago, if you need inspiration.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/favourite-vegetarian-recipes/
If I have bolognese then I am heavy on the sauce, rather than coating the pasta with it I dollop loads on top
You might be doing it right already, maybe just need to adjust the sauce ingredients.
Chuck a couple of diced peppers or other veg in your bolognaise to bulk it out, make the sauce from scratch with tinned toms / passata rather than sauce jars laden with sugar and salt. If you can open a jar, chuck in some herbs and warm it through, you can do exactly the same with a couple of cans of tomatoes.
Very much this. When I was uber calorie counting (fast 800) and using myfitnesspal a lot it was very educational to discover quite how calorific the pasta on the plate was in comparison to the sauce - with minimal else going for it in terms of vitamins and minerals. Clearly it depends what is in the sauce (always homemade here - veggie mince when being fast and lazy, buzzed up mushrooms, celery and carrots with maybe some green lentils otherwise) but now our spag bol is very heavy on the sauce with the minimum of pasta. Less calories, more V&M, more taste.
Why the need to be so absolute? I understand if it’s for ideological reasons but if not just cut back and enjoy on special occasions or simply less often.
Meat can definitely form a key part of a healthy balanced diet.
Replacing high quality meat with highly processed vegan substitutes does not make sense to me (from a nutritional point of view - I do understand that some people simply don’t want to eat animals)
Am I missing something?
You’re right to note that a bad diet is a bad diet. As for one type of ‘bad diet’ vs the other ‘bad diet’?
A good method I found is to undertake research as if arguing for one vs the other and vice versa. ie make the best case you can for eating an unhealthy plant-based diet vs an unhealthy animal-based diet, factoring in cholesterol, gut flora, carcinogens, bacteria, acid, inflammation, etc.
I’ve found that cooking a plant-based menu has opened up a more balanced and varied diet. Other’s mmv. But if instead I ate a fast food diet of a load of vegan Whoppers vs regular Whoppers, or vegan falalafelafela frozen pizza vs meat feast cheesy mountain pizzas I think I’d still be marginally less unhealthy.
She explained her reasons well and got me thinking “I could/should do the same”. I love seafood, am happy to go from steak and chips to tuna, baby potatoes and salad. Yes I’ll miss real bacon and fillet steak, but not so much that I’ll be put off the healthier eating and environmental benefits (however small).
Wondering what benefit comes from attaching a label to your eating preferences? Does it set you up for failure, or to disappoint your child if you deviate from the defined rules? Would eating a bacon roll once a month or a steak twice a year be devastating for you or the planet? If it were me, and I was inclined to support my daughter I'd perhaps stop buying meat in the house (or even just being very selective what/where I bought it), but if I found myself in a small country pub faced with a choice between local wild venison, Viatnamese kings prawns or anything with courgette in it I'd be frustrated that I was eating the least environmentally palatable option because I'd attached a label to myself. [for the avoidance of doubt courgettes are probably the one vegetable that I will not eat]. It would also mean if in a month your daughter is fed up with pescetarian or a year she decides to go full veggie/vegan you aren't necessarily having to follow her footsteps.
Replacing high quality meat with highly processed vegan substitutes does not make sense to me
I can perhaps help you here, but I'll need you to elaborate on what does make sense to you:
1) What do you mean by "processed"?
2) Why is that bad?
3) Why doesn't it equally apply to pork sausages and beefburgers?
Because this really is the Mac vs PC argument again, you're not comparing like with like. One could equally "replace highly processed meat with high quality vegan substitutes".
Veganism is much more than a label/food choice. If the pub doesn’t offer vegan options the vegan won’t be tucking into a tuna steak ‘just this once’. I’m not vegan, but Mrs P is and I know how much she cares not to eat animal products. It’s some orders of magnitude different than my not caring to eat bacon because of my health/the planet’s health and my familial pork-lover’s medical histories.
The ‘vegan for the planet/climate’ trend OTOH is a (too?) latecomer to the table.
It’s different with diet choices and labels for reasons other than personal ethics/animal rights.
I tend to think that a ‘label’ such as ‘pescatarian’ is more often simply a personal reminder of a personal goal to eat more fish and veg in general in pursuit of bettering health? The health of the oceans and seas is not generally an ethical concern of a pescatarian and for good reason?
for the avoidance of doubt courgettes are probably the one vegetable that I will not eat
I know many meat-lovers who would refuse to eat approx 99% of all plant-based foods except for wheat, taters and baked beans. You’re doing pretty well!
Would you seek another drinking and eating establishment if they only served courgette-based dishes? 🤨
When I make bolognese the sauce is done from scratch with fresh peppers, celery and often lentils to replace part of the meat content so what I'm putting in it isn't the problem as such... it's more the volume of food. That isn't as much of an issue with any other meal, just bolognese.
If I had to only eat fish instead of meat, I could do it.....at a push! By why would I? I love a juicy steak, am also very partial to a succulent sausage and the thought of never eating Peking Duck with pancakes ever again fills me with utter horror.
OP I tend to eat 98% plant-based diet and 2% fish, most of which is ‘caught’ from the ‘end of shelf life’ shelf at 9pm kicking out time in the supermarket. I maybe kid myself that the 6 fresh sea bass fillets I bagged for £6 total would have gone to the skip had I not saved them, portioned them out then put in my freezer for the next month or so’s weekly fish suppers. They taste many times better than the crap white mush or tasteless chunks that our chip shops serve up. Would still prefer to catch and kill my own. I could also quit fish.
Currently working on a nori and tofu dish. A love of cooking is something that plant-based diet has rekindled in me in recent years. Horizons have broadened so much even with simple foods.
ie (Just one example of scores): It literally fascinates me to make a very simple and wholesome lentil and veg soup* that tastes so good that it delights me on the scale of mom’s chicken stews when I was a kid. Was raised to think that veg was a side-necessity/punishment and best boiled to death. Never in my young life did I think I’d be greedily licking a bowl clean of lentils and veg, or bean chilli, etc, not to the same degrees I used to for beef chilli or chicken stew. But here we are. It took some time to learn to cook (again).
*Learned by trial and error that it takes good quality produce/veg and just a touch of fresh herbs/ good seasoning. Old school. Cooking is like alchemy to my mind. IME it’s a shame for many reasons that our culture tumbled so fully into the chilled and frozen ready-made meals cul-de-sac? I look back on decades of it, speaking personally. Change is good, IME 🐝 🌱
Veganism is much more than a label/food choice.
This is true, but it's kind of an outlier. A vegan diet is merely one component of being Vegan, Veganism is a whole lifestyle choice rather than just a means labelling what someone eats. But one could, if one wanted, eat a vegan diet without being Vegan.
I know many meat-lovers who would refuse to eat approx 99% of all plant-based foods except for wheat, taters and baked beans. You’re doing pretty well!
I do find it odd, and slightly hypocritical even, that some meat-eaters will criticise non-meat-eaters for choosing a restricted diet and then eat a restricted one themselves. I know plenty of people who simply cannot countenance the idea of a meal that doesn't contain meat. It'd be like me sitting across from someone who was eating a pizza and berating them because they didn't have any chips. (This has actually happened to me: Out down South with work at a curry house, suddenly got "where's your meat?" from my then-boss, followed by the rest of the table variously either cross-examining me or telling me why I was wrong for the next half an hour. They're probably the same sorts of people who'd be back in work the next day complaining about preachy vegans.)
If I had to only eat fish instead of meat, I could do it…..at a push! By why would I? I love a juicy steak, am also very partial to a succulent sausage and the thought of never eating Peking Duck with pancakes ever again fills me with utter horror.
Do that then. Good for you. Isn't choice brilliant.
Cooking is like alchemy to my mind.
Where's that [Like] button?
I've said this for years, using exactly that word, though specifically in relation to making soup. You start with what is essentially a pan of wet veg, then an hour later it's like "where the hell did that suddenly come from?"
I did a stew last night, that was the same. It's really difficult to leave it alone at the start of cooking when it doesn't taste of much.
How's everyone else's bingo card going, by the way?
I have "bacon | processed | pretending to be meat | but why? | I couldn't do it" so far. I just need incisors, depth perception and leather shoes for a line.
Love Mackerel, and being on the South West Coast try to catch as much of it as I can .
Can't beat a bit of fresh fish . Must try a bit of home smoking when I get the time ( and more fish)
Agree with others you can simply say 'I'm going to eat less meat too, and we'll cook and eat the same evening meals together' with your daughter, so if one or the other of you chooses to change their diet going forward it's not a big deal.
For your daughter, being pescatarian first is a good approach and if she just east fish 2-3 times a week it becomes very easy to cut out all together if she wishes, or revert to a lower-quantity-better-quality/ethical meat a few times a week, depending on her reasoning.
As long as you have a varied diet there are no medical reasons to take supplements. Except Vitamin D which we should all be taking during the lockdowns according to the NHS. It is possible / plausible your daughter might want to increase iron intake (e.g. kale, spinach, okra; eat with vitamin c containing stuff like broccoli, spinach and tomatoes) when she starts having periods, but I don't think it's really an issue provided your diet is varied. I turned pescatarian at 11 and vegetarian at 13 and have never had any problems (now 40) even though my diet was atrocious in my teenage years - very fussy and just not very hungry. If your daughter considers veganism she should think about vitamin and mineral intake (particularly calcium and B12) and particularly while she is a teenager, but they can all be sourced from food, it's just making sure you have a sufficiently varied diet including pulses and cereals.
"pescatarian" = Fishandchipocrite!
Vegan 'for the planet' is a total waste of time. The only thing that'll really help the planet is a lot less humans.
So, how about 'Childless; for the planet'. That'll do far more good than I'm eating this/not eating that.
I could suggest a carnivorous solution to the too many humans question, but apparently that's frowned upon.
Do we eat the Americans first? They've been fattened up nicely
she had decided to go pescatarian. She explained her reasons well
I guess she hasn't seen how trawler caught fish die.
Rather than this binary / polarised view that we should do one thing or another, it is far better for our mental wellbeing to think "I am doing something towards a goal", and best if we do a little bit in all aspects of our lives in the 'right' direction, rather than passing the buck to 'someone else'. It is better that I do a little in the right direction than I don't do anything at all, but I also should not chastise myself if I fall off the wagon every now and again. I hope the OP finds some nice new recipes going forward.
Vegan ‘for the planet’ is a total waste of time. The only thing that’ll really help the planet is a lot less humans.
So, how about ‘Childless; for the planet’. That’ll do far more good than I’m eating this/not eating that.
Childless - tick. So vegan and childless - Do I win some sort of prize?
I might take some contention with your total waste of time angle but broadly I think most of even the ardent omnivores would agree a collectively lot less intensive meat consumption (and therefore production) would be a pretty good thing to our long term ability not to bollox up the world faster than currently destined. But yes a big old mass epidemic to thin out the numbers a bit might help too......oh. Awkward!
Regardless, my choices are done low key. Most folks I know in the real world don't know. I'm not into the idea of making a big thing about it. I'm far more vocal about it here than in the real world but even then I hope I'm not preachy. I've taken the attitude that it's a bit like choosing not to sit on a seat on a bus. The seat is then free for others to sit on if they need to. I wouldn't want others not to sit on it just because I've decided I don't need it. I also don't want a special badge for my 'sacrifice'. Because it isn't one and now more than ever a very normal choice.
Because it isn’t one and now more than ever a very normal choice.
That's it in a nutshell, isn't it.
The answer to "why are you vegetarian?" for me is simply "because I want to be, and because I have the luxury of being able to". Anything else is (veggie) gravy. Why is eating meat the default and deviating away from this perceived norm somehow requires justification? It's not the case in other cultures.
Yet turn the question around and it often makes people uncomfortable ("preachy vegans" etc). Maybe that's so in some (rare) cases, but if nothing else then at least you can guarantee that they've given it some thought rather than just doing what they've always done.
Vegan ‘for the planet’ is a total waste of time. The only thing that’ll really help the planet is a lot less humans.
So, how about ‘Childless; for the planet’. That’ll do far more good than I’m eating this/not eating that.
this every time. A vegan diet requires either the input of the fishing and animal farming industry to provide fertiliser or a dependence on the oil industry for non organic fertiliser which creates a dilemma for those who are vegan for the environmental benefits.
this every time. A vegan diet requires either the input of the fishing and animal farming industry to provide fertiliser or a dependence on the oil industry for non organic fertiliser which creates a dilemma for those who are vegan for the environmental benefits.
So it is your assertion that a plant based diet is the same, better or worse for the planet and has more, less or the same involvement of animals in its production than a diet that includes mass produced meat?
Very little in life has anything other than a negative impact and you'd be a fool to think otherwise. But to minimise that impact as a goal is no bad thing.
I would read ‘spoon fed’ by tim Spector (he of the COVID Zoe app).
It has completely changed my view on food/diet and and I now enjoy a lot of things I had cut out due to the perceived health/planetary benefits.
Unfortunately it has also upped my shopping bill somewhat in my quest to avoid anything pumped full of shit.
I guess she hasn’t seen how trawler caught fish die
I saw no mention of moral reasons.
I stopped eating meat because I wanted to test the health benefits. I still kill animals for others that don't do it themselves (majority of meat eaters). Not everyone gives up foods on moral grounds.
I will on occasion eat fish, as I have used fish oil for my arthritis so it would seem daft not to
Unfortunately my local area is almost as far from the sea as you can get in the UK
Can be delivered overnight from the coast, several companies in Cornwall offer this, I sure those from elsewhere do as well.
No downsides.
Save money, the planet and your health.
Be a role model for future generations.
I would read ‘spoon fed’ by tim Spector
Is that the one subtitled ‘Why almost everything you’ve ever been told about food was wrong and now buy my book’? 😉
Seriously though, how does one cross-reference/approve these types of books? Every year it seems that ‘new’ doctors, scientists, nutritional experts comes along and sell us ‘new’ stories about how not to trust things that have been written by doctors, scientists, nutritional experts?
I now enjoy a lot of things I had cut out due to the perceived health/planetary benefits.
Convenient truths or inconvenient untruths? So how would I know what is better for my health, my budget, my immediate environment, and for the global crisis? (Disregarding personal morals)
Re ‘planetary benefits’, would I listen to a bestseller-writing nutritionist/guru, and/or a wide global selection of (sometimes conflicting) articles and studies about our existing food systems and their contribution to climate change, mass-species extinction/loss of biodiversity?
We are (as a species and as a biosphere) at tipping point/cliff-edge, with great losses already underway - and yet we’re still not agreeing with the preponderance of scientific evidence and opinion.
I think it's been covered already, but not eating meat, but eating fish? That's crackers, from a moral and ethical viewpoint.
Go full veggie or carry on with the meat.
Fish, from trawlers, have a long slow death, in effect drowning over around 10 minutes. Shellfish are boiled to death. Oysters and other things are eaten alive.
Then you get to fishings environmental failings. Trawled fishers catch 100/1000's of non-wanted species, including dolphins/seals/sharks/turtles etc. They are thrown back in the water, to probably die. Trawlers just take. They put nothing back into the ecosystem, at least meat farmers breed new animals each year to keep the population steady. Trawlers take everything from one area, then move onto another area to decimate that.
Shellfish trawlers ruin the seabed, the same ground they take from cannot be used by the shellfish for many years afterwards as it is ruined.
Farmed fish is getting better, but is still not good. The waste from the growing fish ruins the seabed where they are caged up. They are prone to ticks and diseases. They are given a slow death again when they are pulled out - there isnt a man there knocking them on their head to kill them, they are left to struggle to breathe until dead.
Compare that to meat farming, at least in this Country, and meat wins by a long way in ethical and moral standards. But if that bothers you, veggie is the only way to go.
Bang on alanl 👍
Seriously though, how does one cross-reference/approve these types of books? Every year it seems that ‘new’ doctors, scientists, nutritional experts comes along and sell us ‘new’ stories about how not to trust things that have been written by doctors, scientists, nutritional experts?
Check the qualifications of the person writing it as a first step "nutritionist" has no meaning. many snake oil salesfolk use impressive sounding titles that when you check are meaningless. Read up on Mckeith for a classic example
Then check where they have been published and check what the refer to
I was a pescatarian for 15 years, I simply opted out of meat at the age of 15, I love sea food and was happy to choose the veggie options when the menu wasn't so fishy. It was fine, I was still able to gorge myself fat at various times during that period
I eventually went back on the burgers at 30 due to having a weining baby, a carnivorous wife and meal times just becoming an utter ballache where we were essentially preparing 3 different meals every time.
Over a decade on from that now and I would happily go back to a pescatarian diet but the boss is well into the habit of eating meat (too bloody often IMO) and it's now quite difficult to separate out diets.
It's much easier when you're completely in charge of what you eat... I really don't think meat has done me any good, and I'm quite aware now that meat and dairy farming is a pretty substantial contributor to global polution...
As religions go its not too bad. You have a nice buring bush as your symbol and I agree with placing great importance upon education and lifelong learning, knowing your actions cannot influence salvation.................
Dealing with having to justify your diet choice to both full meat eaters who don't want anyone to not eateat and vegans and vegetarians who don't want anyone to eat any meat. You will be hated and hounded by them all.
Farmed fish is getting better, but is still not good. The waste from the growing fish ruins the seabed where they are caged up. They are prone to ticks and diseases. They are given a slow death again when they are pulled out – there isnt a man there knocking them on their head to kill them, they are left to struggle to breathe until dead.
I'm afraid this is something of an out of date view. It is a young industry and many criticisms can be levied at some of the early approaches as it learned in the 20th century. Now, however, the regulation is reasonably strong and the precautionary principle heavily applied by regulators who will act if any breaches occur.
You're right that there's no man knocking them on the head - it is mechanical and takes seconds from swimming to dead.
Dealing with having to justify your diet choice to both full meat eaters who don’t want anyone to not eateat and vegans and vegetarians who don’t want anyone to eat any meat. You will be hated and hounded by them all.
How often are you hated and hounded? Be honest. I’ve changed my diet over a number of years, as a meateater I also married a pescatarian who later became vegan. Neither of us have been hated nor hounded* to my knowledge. She’s had to ‘justify’ it to curious family members, but that’s no biggie. Certainly not interfered in each other’s or anyone else’s diets.
*Tell a lie, she was once publicly jeered at (does that count as hounded?) and hated in the queue at a local farmer’s market. For the crime of buying me meat sausages!
‘Try a sausage love?
‘No thanks, they’re for my husband, he’s not here - so which are the most popular?’
‘Go on, have a try of this one’
‘No thanks, I’m sure they’re nice but I don’t eat meat’
(married couple in queue behind, loudly, mocking) ‘oh no, one of those bloody vegans, I bet she’s a liberal as well eh?’
‘Yes, and I burned my bra too, enjoy your day!’
That story is such a perfect little slice of hereabouts in the world. But it’s going back 15 years or so and only happened once. She’s had quite a few ‘foreigners’ comments as well. Our Most Brexity Friend Forever is a militant meat-eater and he complains at the table over his son and my wife both eating non-meat xmas dinners, yet it’s mostly in jest.
But seriously, how often are people hated and hounded for what we eat? (Unless you count such outliers as above, or the majority of youtube comments?) 🤣
How often are you hated and hounded?
I'm a full meat eater but a mate of mine who is vegan I have witnessed people get quite aggressive with him. He is not sanctimonious, doesn't try to "convert" people, just states (when apocopate) that he is vegan. One bit stick in my head of one guy going on a rant and then finishing with "you won't turn me". It was quite bizzar!
More generally I think my point is made by this thread. There is a fair few posts saying just go one way or the other, you choice doesn't make sense... We are all on a journey and harassing people for not being at the same point as oneself is what I don't like. I hope that makes sense not the clearest I know.
You're right probably not that common but OP was looking for the downsides 😉
