Looking online it seems like the subframes on those cars are failing on younger and lower milage models so theres probably nothing untoward about milage or MOTS. Rust is a product of time. design and environment not miles. Replacement subframes are £120 (so not really more than a tyre or an exhaust) so unless its an especially laborious job might not an especially uneconomical repair if used prices are still high. Given the repairs you've already had done its probably going to have less surprises left in it than another second hand car. I think to be frank buying can be so difficult at present the only reason someone has to sell a car is if they suspect theres something wrong with it.
If the condition of the subframe is because that particular part has designed-in / manufacturing quality issue then it'll be the only bit under there that's a problem and a replacement will be good for another decade. If the problem is a result of use and abuse - the car has be driven into the sea every weekend - then you expect all the the bottom of the car the have problems not just that one component.
old cars will be worn out, its why they’re cheap
No. You can't sell something with a massive problem without clearly stating there's a massive problem. If you do, you're on the hook. It is taken as implied that if you don't say there's something big wrong with it then it's fine. Otherwise, how else would anyone buy a car without a full inspection?
No. You can’t sell something with a massive problem without clearly stating there’s a massive problem.
The dealer will just turn round and say it had passed a MOT at an unconnected garage so it clearly didn't have a massive fault at the time. It's a 12 year old Vauxhall, they rust. 3 years ago that would have been a £1k shed and it'd now be being scrapped.
The dealer will just turn round and say it had passed a MOT at an unconnected garage so it clearly didn’t have a massive fault at the time. It’s a 12 year old Vauxhall, they rust. 3 years ago that would have been a £1k shed and it’d now be being scrapped.
right. things you sell have to be "of reasonable quality". at the bangernomics end of the market, if the cost for a years repairs are under a grand a year, its probably what most people would consider "reasonable quality". Yes, a lot of cars will cost less than that to run for a year, but thats the gamble of buying something thats beyond its designed lifespan.
if you can demonstrate the problem was there when you bought it you have a case, rust in itself isn't an issue on a car, and I think you'll struggle to find an engineer to produce a report stating the car had terminal rust 8 months ago, particularly when an independent report 2 months earlier stated it didn't.
at the bangernomics end of the market, if the cost for a years repairs are under a grand a year, its probably what most people would consider “reasonable quality”.
I'd agree with that. My '07 Civic cost 3.5k 2 years ago and it's roughly cost 1k a year in odds and sods of repairs.
If I'd intended to spend 4k on a car in a year, I'd have leased a brand new one instead. 😒
It's already had £900 of repairs, at dealer pricing (I have a copy of the receipt).
I do appreciate the various points about "what did I expect?" above, but the fact is I bought a car from a dealer at a higher price specifically so it wasn't knackered and worthless inside one year.
Having had a look at a Youtube or two (how's that for idle curiosity) I'd be tempted to change it myself. Say £350 of parts, another 500 for the tools if you don't already have them and a weekend of graft, maybe two.
I had a 97 Ducato from 98 to 2012, looked after it and ran it to 160 000km. The battery leaked and rotted the front cross member so I replaced that and the exhaust to sell it rather than scrap it when I no longer needed a van. A month ago a saw it in the queue at the DIY store and went for chat with the guy I sold it to. It's now on well over 300 000km and it's been as reliable for him as it was for me.
I'd personally just repair it, if it's just a subframe it shouldn't be expensive, a few hundred quid plus labour?
Edit: Edukator beat me to it
It’s already had £900 of repairs, at dealer pricing (I have a copy of the receipt).
How much has it actually cost you though? £900 worth of repairs FOC by dealer don’t count! 😀
I’d be tempted to change it myself
Righto. Do you want to buy it off me? 😜
If I’d intended to spend 4k on a car in a year, I’d have leased a brand new one instead. 😒
the problem is the whole market is distorted at the moment so the economics are different. A car you bought for £4k a dealer wouldn't have even put on the forecourt a few years ago - a dealer wouldn't take the risk of having to honour a sale on such a small margin. You could have picked up a car that age for about a grand privately. A repair like the one in prospect wouldn't be considered by many to be economical at that value (I disagree with many people's idea of the economics mind but thats just me)
But if the market is still distorted then a repair on a 12 year old car is much more credible - its low milage, its had some recent work done identifying known gremlins done free of charge. You've done pretty well just getting those repairs to be honest - nearly a quarter of the value of the car they sold - they've probably made a loss all in.
I'd investigate a price for getting it repaired - dont be put off by the garage who identified it being fatalistic - garages are often not keen if a repair is out of their comfort zone but they'll sell you that as the car's shortcomings rather than theirs 🙂 They also largely deal with customers who hugely resent (or are scared of) having to pay anything at all for repairs and will usually panic and spend more on replacing it rather than repairing.
Compare those costs against what you'd have to pay for a car (which might be shit) with prices still inflated. And try and imagine that car being a dead cert for not needing any work.
I drive a car a few years older than yours and with double the milage and have no issue with paying for sizeable works - new gearbox, injectors, and rear axel in the last year alone - but it all adds up to less than replacing it with something else. Definitely right now.
If I’d intended to spend 4k on a car in a year, I’d have leased a brand new one instead.
That's the gamble you take with older cars, you might get lucky or it might be expensive. Until 18 months ago I'd never spent more than £2k on a car, and only then on interesting stuff. I've had £500 sheds that lasted a few years and a £1000 Saab 9-5 that lunched it's gearbox within 6 months. I ended up spending much more on a 3 year old Kia as even stuff at £4k looked like what I used to buy on the understanding it could be uneconomical in 6 months.
The dealer will just turn round and say it had passed a MOT at an unconnected garage so it clearly didn’t have a massive fault at the time
MOT means nothing, they don't check everything and can't. It clearly did have a massive fault at the time of sale, that rust didn't happen over one of the driest summers on record did it?
if you can demonstrate the problem was there when you bought it you have a case, rust in itself isn’t an issue on a car,
That rust is!
I know the feeling all too well...
Bought a Caddy from a dodgy Burnley dealer just over a year ago for about 5k (with 172k miles). It wasn't cheap, but no van was at the time and it looked in really good condition.
Even my local garage commented that it looked really good for the mileage it had done, then the issues start.
Injector went (garage said it looked like it had been bodged previously)
Recently, both front wheel bearings gone, and it still needs a new radiator, fan and thermostat housing
Oh and it has been hit by other driver twice while it has been parked up, but that's not the dealers fault.
I still need to sort an aerial out for the radio because the mirror that was swiped off contained it, I didn't know at the time.
I approached them with the injector problem as it happened in the second week, but I could just tell it wasn't worth the hassle.
You were surprised that a van with 172,000 miles on the clock has needed new wheel bearings and an injector?
You were surprised that a van with 172,000 miles on the clock has needed new wheel bearings and an injector?
I think thats a tad unfair - the surprise is more that a £5k van on a dealers forecourt needed new wheel bearings and an injector...
As has already been said, 2nd had cars are crazy money at the moment, and unlikely to drop much unless new cars come back down a lot.
I've been to see the man.
He's offered to fix it (the sub frame) but I've said no.
So he's said he'll pay top book trade in for one of his stock cars... but he doesn't have a lot in.
I'm currently hunting around some nearby dealers and he's looking for stock that matches my somewhat scatty list of "what I want".
So, I'm hopeful a deal can be done. It'll mean I take a bit of a bath on what I paid for it, but I'm still hopeful I can squeeze a bit more out of him if and when we can find a replacement.
And that's going to be the hard part!
Thanks for all the help and advice, both positive and negative. It really helped.
Now, does anyone want to buy a car from me? One careful owner*
FSH**
Completely clear MOT history
Bargain at £3499... 😁
Sold as seen*
Assuming that's the only fault, why wouldn't you let him fix it? You've then got a 'decent', known quantity for £4k in a very uncertain market...
He’s offered to fix it (the sub frame) but I’ve said no.
So for the time being you're driving kids around with a knackered sub-frame!?
I’m currently hunting around some nearby dealers and he’s looking for stock that matches my somewhat scatty list of “what I want”.
Moon on a stick by the sounds of it.
Give me this dealers details - he sounds like a very fair bloke!! 🙂
He sounds like a good sort to be honest. Who is he as we should give good folk a shout.
So, I’m hopeful a deal can be done. It’ll mean I take a bit of a bath on what I paid for it
I hope you can get an arrangement without small claims - he's sold you a car that is defintely dangerous ****ed and was definitely like that when he sold it to you - because he didn't check. There's no argument here. He sold you bad (and dangerous) goods, you should not be out of pocket. In fact you should be compensated for the risk and the extra hassle you've had.
It's not the same as wheel bearings or injectors. Those are wear items, and you would expect nearly worn bearings on an old car that then fail after a short time. But you can't sell structurally buggered cars and pass them off as sound.
Assuming that’s the only fault, why wouldn’t you let him fix it? You’ve then got a ‘decent’, known quantity for £4k in a very uncertain market…
A very good question.
So for the time being you’re driving kids around with a knackered sub-frame!?
Slowly and gently, yes.
Give me this dealers details – he sounds like a very fair bloke!!
Happy to share once we've done the deal.
Assuming that’s the only fault, why wouldn’t you let him fix it?
It's not.
I think thats a tad unfair – the surprise is more that a £5k van on a dealers forecourt needed new wheel bearings and an injector…
Having bought a car from a dealership (Arnold Shark) and looked at a line of main dealers at the time, I think they do NOTHING other than run an history check, a mini-valet and kick the tyres. I did not find a dealer who had done anything else. Questions about service history were met with 'why would you ask that?', cars were chipped and scratched, dirty inside, and engine bay's were full of spiders and clearly had not been checked if there was more than a couple of thousand miles to the service. I was stopped from sticking my head under a car by main Ford dealer 'because health and safety' - nothing to do with the rust that was all over it underneath (when I checked history it was from Ayr, a coastal town..._. And this was on £10-15k cars...
Son's £4k/100k/12yr old rusty Transit was bought with £1k in the bank - and he spent £680 on a service, new brakes and brake lines from our trusted garage who we sent it to a week after he bought it. We asked them to give it a good nosey and list the issues they saw (thankfully only rust, which we are on top of enough now). A year later it has had an oil * filter change, more rust work and a new wheel bearing.. Still I expect it has maybe 3-5 years of life left, on a good day.
So a £5k / 170k+ vehicle is going to have issues.
Same with a £4k Meriva. However, the rust on that one from OP is rather shocking.
Having bought a car from a dealership (Arnold Shark) and looked at a line of main dealers at the time, I think they do NOTHING other than run an history check, a mini-valet and kick the tyres.
I think you're right - but they need to appreciate that if they save money on checks then some cars will come back. Essentially you're letting the buyers do the validation work for you.
Yeah best to avoid his "too French" stock as a Megane would have had a galvanised subframe that would still be looking like this 🙂
Essentially you’re letting the buyers do the validation work for you.
That is how I read it.
The time and money to sell a 'quality' car is not there - better to take a chance and hope not too many come back.
Buyer beware.
I think them offering to repair it is a good outcome, if you still don't want it after that sell it on.
I wouldn't be driving around on it in the mean time.
The dealer should have checked under the car when they bought it but sadly I think you should have also looked a lot sooner.
Old cars are not problem free and professional dealer sale or not you should do your due diligence when buying them. The law is fairly generous to consumers when it comes to buying used cars but you didn't make adequate use of it here in time. The dealer shouldn't have sold it as it was and you would have been able to reject it I'd have thought, provided you did it within the timescales set out in law. It's not hard to get a mirror and have a cursory glance under the car and a corroding subframe would have been fairly obvious if it was at that bad of a stage of rot. You don't have to do that on the forecourt but should do so within a week or two of taking the car home to avoid issues like this.
Lesson learned take the repair offer and move on.
+1 for airvent.
I do exactly the same checks at dealers as I do privately.
Take a code reader, bright torch and wear old clothes when looking at cars. Inspect every bit, get on your hands and knees to check underneath not just for corrosion but accident damage, lift carpets in boot etc to check for hidden repairs, check every switch, good test drive, including reverse, turning at full lock etc.
It's a ball ache, which is why it might be better getting that car repaired, so at least you can take your time looking for something else.
I disagree that it's easy to do. A lot of people depend on cars but are not at all capable of doing a check to that level of detail. I bet only 1% of drivers know what a subframe is. In a lot of cars you need to get under it to remove undertrays and things, which is too much to ask for most people. You might lament the lack of technical skills in society but that's just the way it is. Only one of the parties involved in the sale is expected to be an expert (and probably advertises that) and it's not the buyer.
A second opinion from an independent isn't a bad idea though. I did this, cost me £90 IIRC and they did a full readout (which they gave me a copy of and talked me through) and got it up on a ramp to check underneath. Given the money involved this is probably a good idea.
The time and money to sell a ‘quality’ car is not there – better to take a chance and hope not too many come back.
Buyer beware.
As others have alluded to, your consumer rights when buying a used car from a dealer are the same as buying new. Of course, "acceptable quality" here doesn't mean like new but what would be reasonable to expect of (say) a 10-year old car. That should give piece of mind but some dealers might just see it as a numbers game. Amount of work / expense to tart everything up vs the likelihood of a problem (and the likelihood of someone successfully complaining if there is).
At work we used to have a Logistics department which shipped sometimes rather expensive kit up and down the country. I had a site delivery go missing once, turned out that it wasn't insured. I was like, "what madness is this?" It turned out, it was more cost-effective to take the hit on an occasional £500 switch or £10k router getting lost than it was to insure everything that went out.
I totally agree with Molgrips.
I do know what a subframe is though, but I had several original Minis so it's inevitable.
I think thats a tad unfair – the surprise is more that a £5k van on a dealers forecourt needed new wheel bearings and an injector…
I'm surprised you managed to get any sort of drivable van for that money from a forecourt for that money in the current climate. I was looking at vans at the start of last year - went to a dealer who had about 100 on the forecourt. Prices ranged from 10k to 20k - all high milage, filthy, every single one had a sizeable dent in , some had hole punched in the them, some had doors that wouldn't close 🙂
Completely clear MOT history
Bargain at £3499… 😁
Sold as seen*
You're aware that we've only seen one bit of it 🙂
You’re aware that we’ve only seen one bit of it 🙂
And that picture revealed some of it was missing 🤣
I'm still curious as to how much money the OP has actually paid out himself for repairs?
Oh, there's not a straight panel on mine haha. Well, apart from the bit that got repaired by the insurers of the person who reversed into it trying to turn around on a one-way street.
I wasn't surprised by having repair bills on an old, moon milage van. I was just listing my experience.
At the low end of the price range, a vehicle is always going to be a gamble. I honestly think I've done well with it so far. Just need to get on eBay and find a radiator fan and a few bits for it 🙂
Bet you was getting decent MPG with the weight saving on the subframe 🙂
