Going back to car dealer with "issues"

Depends on the age of the car and what would be a reasonable expectation of condition at purchase. You might expect some rust on a 10-year-old car, although obviously not a major defect. MOTs don't often pick up subframe cracks, was there a claimed inspection of the subframe by the dealer before you bought it?

You'd need an independent report on the subframe issue. If the cracking is rust-related, then I guess that might add some weight to the argument that it cannot have just popped up in the last seven months, but even then, proving that they sold you an unroadworthy vehicle could be tricky.

You'll struggle given the age of the car as they're not really built to last that long (yes it's silly and they do tend to last much longer). You're more likely to get some goodwill from the selling garage than any refund

So, as far as I can tell, under CRA I’m in the 6-12 months where I must prove the fault pre-existed.

There's a big difference between a new and used anything, a 12 year old car has already outlived any legally defined life and clearly didn't have a fault at time of (original) sale or manufacture so anything of that sort is out, which means you're onto "satisfactory quality" under the CRA. Defining that for a 2nd hand anything is difficult

You are I suspect going to be highly reliant on good will* and "warranty" at this point but I'm afraid this is the risk of buying used to a large extent.

FWIW, the CRA gives you a 30 day DoA from a dealer, 6 months to find and report a fault during which it's assumed to have been present at time of sale then 6 years (5 in Scotland) after that in which if you can "prove" it was faulty at point of sale its still their responsibility to do something to rectify it.

The age of your car means that proving it was faulty eg outside of expected wear and tear is going to be incredibly difficult as you need to prove its not of the "expected quality" of a 12 year old vehicle of that type, so if many of the sub frames on that model failed between 10-15 years you're screwed. Eg. If it's an ex estate land rover and its rusted to death and cracked you'll have no where to go, a ferrari with 300mi on the clock you likely would.

In the first instance, forget the CRA or anything else of the sort. Speak to them nicely and see what they say, after that maybe start thinking about your legal position if you need to but you can guarantee any good will will stop the moment you start mentioning your statutory rights.

just trade it in against something else (not from the original dealer), or sell to we buy any car etc - it will be less hassle in the long run than trying to get anything out of the current dealer.

Anyone who had an old mini will be familiar with subframe rust. I had mine welded years ago and I suspect that will be the solution offered to you.

Hmmm. Some interesting food for thought there.

Current plan is to go have a chat with the dealer and see what he'll do... I was thinking of px'ing it to him and paying (quite a lot!) extra to get a newer car from him. As a small dealer he doesn't carry much stock though, and it's all too small, too french or too expensive for my budget.

WBAC is at £1900 ish, less their haggle.

I had mine welded years ago and I suspect that will be the solution offered to you.

Oh, this is also important, you're looking at repair or possibly a partial refund, you are not, after 7 months of use, entitled to a full refund (you're not actually entitled to one after 14 days for anything but that's a different issue). For cars especially there is a legally protected (under the CRA) expectation of reduction in value for use.

The only genuine bit of (IMO) always applicable advice I can give, is always get a 2nd car fully serviced and checked over by another garage ASAP but within the first 28 days of ownership.

Horse, door, bolted obviously.

I'm not interested in repair as an option. There are other issues with it as well, and when a garage says "Nah..." to a lot of work, you know there are deeper things wrong with it.

I've read about the refund guidelines already and that's something I'd take on the chin tbh. Any idea of a rough £ per month? Like £100?

As for the check by the second garage, it was the garage who found the problem who recommended me to the supplying dealer in the first place! And my MIL, who isn't going to get away with this. 😀

Worst case for me is wbac or chop it in somewhere else.

Best case is get a reasonable trade in with him.

I was thinking of px’ing it to him and paying (quite a lot!) extra to get a newer car from him.

If you're planning on doing that, you probably don't want to be telling them that you think it's buggered first.

too french

Might have to change your mind on that if you want to avoid another rust bucket. 🙂

And is it only me who thinks honesty is the best policy. There's no reason to think the dealer was being dishonest when he sold the car, they aren't all sharks.

Sometimes they could rip you off and don't; I dropped my car off this morning for a routine service at Renault and told them to replace the service battery if there was any doubt as I'd be leaving the car out in freezing temperatures. When I picked it up it hadn't had the battery changed but a printout of its state was stapled to the bill.

Batterie santé 91%
Batterie charge 76%

I'll give it a charge

I don't think you'll get anything out of the garage. It's been too long since you bought it, and its an old car.

I'd stick it on ebay as spares and repairs.

I've not used wbac but surely they'd check it over very carefully before giving you any money??

I’ve read about the refund guidelines already and that’s something I’d take on the chin tbh. Any idea of a rough £ per month? Like £100?

No ideas, it'll depend on the level of use and utility you've had from it and I doubt there's any sort of official ish number

in honesty on a £4k car I'd not be expecting to see much by way of refund.

Gut feel is I'd most likely work to
[value at purchase]/[mot length at purchase]*[mot remaining]
So £4000/10*3 = £1200 refund

That being based on my thinking a 13 year old car of unknown history is equally likely to be written off, need work to it's own value or sail through with no advisorys at the next mot.

I’ve not used wbac but surely they’d check it over very carefully before giving you any money??

They're more likely to knock you down over a scratched alloy than it being a death trap just so long as the paperwork doesn't tell them it is.

View up and forward of the sub frame.

https://imgur.com/a/5QXR4Xm

Ok, I looked into this last year.

You have to prove that there's a significant fault and it was there when the car was bought. In your case I'd have thought that was pretty easy. I was also told the law heavily sides with the consumer in these cases.

Essentially you've bought something that's not fit for purpose, regardless of age, so you are absolutely entitled to a refund in my view.

View up and forward of the sub frame.

Fuuuuuu... you were 100% ripped off - this is open and shut.

What the hell was that car OP? (obviously it might well be a land rover, 50% of them look like that after a week, the rest live for ever)

I've bought a Volvo XC90 - 12years old, Swedish build quality, £50k new car, full Volvo service history, 1 owner from new, galvanized bodywork etc etc.

The rear subframe looks like it's been dragged up from the bottom of the North Sea! Motto of this story is that older cars need more maintenance. Not only do they need what the manufacturer states (oil changes etc) but bodywork needs rust addressing, tired parts changing.

You either do the work yourself, line the pockets of your mechanic or get a new car on finance/PCP etc.

Edited to add - posted before seeing that photo above. That's pretty knackered!

What car and mileage?

View up and forward of the sub frame.

Japanese car? Mazdas and Hondas of that vintage are notorious for rust.

The car was obviously seriously corroded when you bought it, and not in a hidden place. The crack it's difficult to say but recent. What STWers really need to know is which MOT station gives certificates to cars in that state so they can keep their dangerous old bangers on the road. 😉

Edit: to be honest if that was mine I'd be pissed off with myself for buying it not at the dealer for selling it. Getting your knees dirty or turning up with a mirror on a stick is a must when buying.

Motto of this story is that older cars need more maintenance. Not only do they need what the manufacturer states (oil changes etc) but bodywork needs rust addressing, tired parts changing.

No - structural rust like that is not a maintenance issue. It's a severe safety critical problem, in my view, and no-one should have been driving that off the forecourt never mind all around the country for the last 6 months.

The car was obviously seriously corroded when you bought it, and not in a hidden place.

Not always obvious - the '07 Civic Type R I have is notorious for snapped subframes, but they rot from the inside.

No – structural rust like that is not a maintenance issue. It’s a severe safety critical problem, in my view, and no-one should have been driving that off the forecourt never mind all around the country for the last 6 months.

soz - I'd posted before seeing the photo.
I was expecting surface rust - that's ****ed!

It's a 10 plate vx meriva. 59k.

Not sure I could sell that on with a clear conscience!

There's no way that wasn't similarly extensive when you bought it. In order for a car to be 'of satisfactory quality', it must be roadworthy at the point of sale (and that's not just a current MOT, a car can be unroadworthy with a valid MOT certificate).

The seven months clouds the issue slightly, but claiming that amount of rust has happened in that period seems improbable. This car was not roadworthy when they sold it to you.

The thing is you expect rust at that age, if it didn't have rust you would be more surprised.

The hole and crack show its a lot more than surface but until they're there the only way to really be sure is hit it with something (or something with it, like a pot hole) possibly putting a hole/crack in it.

As above its the stuff you can't see until it fails that usually does the damage.

But yeah, no way that wasn't at least obviously going to fail at the time of sale.

It’s a 10 plate vx meriva. 59k.

I'd bet it hasnt done 59k miles either.

Not always obvious

In this case it's obvious, have you seen the photo? Even without the crack that amount of rust tells you not to buy it.

It’s a 10 plate vx meriva. 59k.

I'd be checking the MOT history online and checking the certificaate numbers.

So, the issue I have is that the sub frame is (apparently) pre-existing the purchase, but the other issues have developed since.

I'm going back on the basis of the sub frame, but I don't want the car back. At all.

Am I right to play it that way, or hit them with everything?

Would you buy a more recent car from the dealer? Like a 18-19 plate Captur for 10-11k?

For balance - I did have a well cared for privately run Transit LWB van. Waxoyld underneath yearly and well maintained. Year before no advisory, no sign of rust, spotless underneath. Following year arse absolutely fell out of both cills and front arches. I couldn't believe how badly and quickly it had gone. I scrapped it.

However I would have probably expected to see the OP's subframe as an advisory by now. Externally it should have been bad enough to be flagged. Was it always MOT'd at the same place?

I'd buy a more recent car from the dealer, yes, but I'd do an online search and get it inspected before paying 10-11k.

Would you buy a more recent car from the dealer? Like a 18-19 plate Captur for 10-11k?

I wouldnt touch anything the dealer sells with a bargepole - they've demonstrated they will just sell on any old crap.

By all means go back and ask them for a refund , but they'll probably offer you slightly below WBAC value. Best option (for your sanity) is to shift it to WBAC and buy something else from someone else - chalk this one up to experience.

I’m going back on the basis of the sub frame, but I don’t want the car back. At all.

Am I right to play it that way, or hit them with everything?

Yeah, stick to the subframe, as it is in not sure how that would have been classed as safe to drive and if they start to bleat about it that's what I'd personally be pushing on.

Would you buy a more recent car from the dealer? Like a 18-19 plate Captur for 10-11k?

Yes, the dealer has possibly never looked under it, the garage he used to mot on the other hand... I'd be asking him to get your regular garage to give it a once over and change his mot station.

Was it always MOT’d at the same place?

I think so, yes. Always serviced there anyways and apparently they pre-mot cars and fix them first.

Link to MOT history
https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/results?registration=DA10VXM

Edit to clarify, the mot and servicing garage is nothing to do with the supplying dealer. It was traded in and he retailed it back out (it does look in decent nick!)

The Merivas and Zafiras of that age do rust quite rapidly when it starts but even then I'd have expected that to flag up as an advisory at minimum on the last MOT.

Best advice I can give is to not go in all guns blazing but be calm but firm with the dealer, much more likely to get a decent result that way. If you want to see teal examples look up 'Chops Garage' on YouTube to see how it's best played.

Like a 18-19 plate Captur for 10-11k?

A very quick squiz on auto trader suggests that's £1-2k higher than normal too

Best of luck, let us know what the dealer's response is please.

Nothing to add about your existing car other than "oooft" - that's some rust for that age and mileage.

For future, pre-purchase inspection. I'm not mechanically-savvy enough to trust my own judgement, so I used https://www.clickmechanic.com/pre-purchase-inspection prior to buying my most recent car. It was (at the time) a 13yr old Aussie-built car known for having next to no underseal and a tendancy for front chassis legs to rust, 57k miles and spent its life in NE England. Car was 200+ miles away so I booked someone to inspect it before I travelled. Money well spend IMO, even if just for peace of mind.

Thanks all. I'll update with how I get on.

I've just fetched the kids from school in it and we survived. 🤗

I guess the worst that could happen is...

I’ve just fetched the kids from school in it and we survived.

Sure?

OK, wow, I'd be tempted to approach trading standards about the garage that did the MOT!
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/report-an-mot-tester

Would that subframe normally be covered by an undertray that the garage has taken off to do the service work?

If so -
A) it wouldn't be spotted on an MOT, as it wouldn't be visible and testers remove no covers or other parts (my certs always have a disclaimer on saying as much.).
B) Its entirely possible that the drainage channels on the car leave puddles of manky water sitting on the undertray every time it rains, which the subframe sits in - hence the rust...

7 months on, I'd say tough titty. If you'd been under it and found it within a week of having bought it, you'd have a fair case. Caveat emptor and all that. The crankshaft seal - unless its losing pints or making the clutch slip - meh. Old(ish) cars leak a bit. Call it an inbuilt rustproofing system....

Would that subframe normally be covered by an undertray that the garage has taken off to do the service work?

Nope.

I take your point about the leak, but there are other issues as well...

I said to you the other day Rich its like it was left in West Kirby Marine Lake for a year then pulled out and re commissioned!

Don't think my OBDII reader would have picked that up  😮

so this was MOT'd up to 10 months ago? I can't see you have any go-back to the dealer myself - its an old car (old cars will be worn out, its why they're cheap), that has some rust (old cars have that) and damage that can easily have occured in the last 7 months. Whilst the rust can't have occured entirely in the last 7 months, it may well have looked nothing like that when it was sold. A month after sale? sure you've got a case. 7 months? no.

if WBAC inspect it properly there's not much chance you'll get full whack out of them either.