[Closed] God's will

If a god does exist, and everything that happens happens for a reason, then what possible reason could there be for my wife and I losing our third child at the weekend?

I remember seeing an interview with a devout Muslim who had survived the Boxing Day tsunami. His only explanation for what had happened was that "God was testing me". God wiped out 1/4 million odd people as a test for his faith. Either that's one solipsistic world view or one weird god. Was he testing the people who didn't survive too?

5thElephant, some are. They just don't get called extremists.

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Good question, thegreatape. My first answer would be to say that I think it probably wouldn't diminish free will. If someone is disposed to God, and chooses to ask for his intervention, then the love of God felt in response might well be 'miraculous' and non-contradictory.

Its not me getting shitty or personal is it flashy and that is not what I said

Thanks for your concern about my "welfare" I am sure it was well meaning and not a personal dig. 😕

Amusing that you say ok I will try to be nice and you get that from folk as a response and its still my fault
Turns the other cheek again to the CPT

Surely religion started as a means of trying to understand the world in which we live? Why does the rain fall? Why does the Sun shine? Why do the crops fail? Why are we here?
Some of the bits of Abrahamic tradition make sense - Kosher / Trefeirah, Halal / Haram make sense in that part of the world in pre-refrigeration days. These are pretty good food hygiene ideas for the day. I'm sure there's something in there about washing fish and / or hands under running water - specifically running water.

The rest is fairy stories.

Nowadays we have a better understanding of the world and the universe in which it is located. We understand a lot about the fundamental forces and particles which create and shape that universe. We know why the rain falls, the Sun shines, and why crops fail.

We know what the structure of the atom is, we know the structure and the forces within that atom. What we do not know we have been able to postulate, and then prove.

We have the Standard Model. It is right*. As an example, which received a fair amount of media attention. Higgs, Brout, Englert, et. al. proposed a theory of how gauge bosons could acquire mass through interaction in a quantum type field that permeates everything. There was no [i]proof[/i] for this other than the need to explain mass in a way that Goldstone's Theorem didn't, their ideas and a whole bunch of calculations. The theoretical explanation seemed right. It fit everything else we knew about particle physics at that time. This was 1964. In 2012 both the CMS and ATLAS at CERN, in independent experiments detected a previously unknown boson with mass that was expected as predicted by the Higgs Theory.

Not a fairy story. A real explanation of the world around us.

*Is the Standard Model [i] correct[/i]. Yes, for now, with our current understanding. I look forward to the day when we prove it isn't. Sure as spit beats the idea of believing in something that people debated about as being correct 2000 years ago and saying that's how we should all live our lives today and if you don't you're all gonna burn.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics - Yeah, that one is right, bet the house on that one. Ain't gonna change.

Wine fuelled rant about religion over for now. Do not start me on Creationism! My laptop would experience something akin to an SCM quench with the pith, piss and bile with which I would have to respond. Don't, don't do it.

Miracles eh? Let's take as a miracle what millions and millions of Catholics would call a miracle (or claim they do). Someone has cancer. They pray for a cure to Mary/st someone or they take a trip to Lourdes and the cancer goes away. They believe that God has intervened in their lives and made them well.
But has anyone who is missing an arm ever grown a new arm? No matter how fervently they have prayed, I don't believe you could show me anyone who has ever grown a new arm.
So- either God has some unfathomable dislike of limbless people and refuses to cure them, or he can't (in which case he is not omnipotent and therefore not God), or - and let's invoke Occam's Razor here - he doesn't exist.

Saxonrider - sorry mate, but they are as valid as any statement you have made - regardless of the thousands of years of mans philosophical thinking about God......

Either they exist, and therefore everything that happens can be attributed to them or they don't and everything that happens is a result of thousands of years of evolution/chance/chemistry/physics.

I can't reconcile the crap that goes on in the world with any kind of deity worthy of worship, so have to believe they're a bunch of Sherman tankers, or they don't exist.

I can see that my brain is too simplistic for this convoluted 'tosh' of which you speak, so in the words of the dragons, I'm out.

@ironnigel: I don't think anyone on here would start in on creationism, so not to worry.

5thElephant, some are. They just don't get called extremists

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Smudger666 - Member

Saxonrider - sorry mate, but they are as valid as any statement you have made - regardless of the thousands of years of mans philosophical thinking about God......

I can see that my brain is too simplistic for this convoluted 'tosh' of which you speak, so in the words of the dragons, I'm out.

Sorry if I sounded harsh. I don't mean to suggest that it is stupid to have the thoughts expressed in those memes; it's just that they are single, throw-away sentences that shouldn't be given too much weight on their own. I think sometimes discussions around the issue of God get swamped by these sorts of things from both sides. And yes, I agree with you that the thoughts are as legitimate as my own. I don't want to assert superiority on my part.

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5thElefant - Member

Even the good ones are evil.

Wow. Just wow. The implications of your assertion are huge.

I'm pretty sure that good and bad are just constructs, entirely inside the human head. Perception, nothing more and nothing less. Shit happens, or doesn't, no reason. Same for God, purely a product of the human mind.

Now then, back to the wine and popcorn.

Happy Friday 🙂

God isn't complicated. The human condition makes God complicated, just so we can contemplate our navels, rather than just be the best we can, as much as we can.

And for the ultimate flaming...

God IS love. Infinite, unconditional, love.

On the all the bad shit in the world is derived from our abuse of free will, even if you extend that to other living organisms then you've still got geological, cosmological and meteorological disasters to contend with where the only deviation is either the random chaos of the universe or a malevolent act on the behalf of god.

If god has built that chaos in to the system what is it's purpose? Does it need to have purpose? Or could the literalistic interpretations in this thread about omnipotence be wrong and is god there as a presence but not a controller or even necessarily as the creator with the ultimate vision.

The whole earthquakes happen so we can appreciate the insignificance of our selves doesn't seem like a very satisfactory explanation. Collateral damage doesn't seem like a very godly concept.

Also the devil in general - outside of it as a metaphor - is another nail in the coffin of the literal omnipotence narrative.

Been drinking. Atheist for the record.

@ thestabiliser - It's not random chaos. It's really, really, really well ordered chaos.
Hope that helps.

Devout Atheist - in case you missed my earlier post!

Willard. Don't know what to say except that I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. It won't help at all but thinking very much of you and yours.

Jay

God IS love. Infinite, unconditional, love.

Well, I'm glad that works for you. I suspect you must have to cover your eyes and ears quite a bit to stay on message.

Faith is just a coping mechanism, built into our phsyche to help us survive in a very big bad world
Its just an electrochemical state, like all of our conscious thought and emotion

Theres gotta be a genetic element to being a believer and like all genetics it will vary from person to person

Add into that religions being used as a control mechanism in societies to help keep things stable through time

Religion is here to stay, even in an age where we can split the atom (and way beyond) where we can create and modify life at its most basic level in a laboratory
It persists, in the complete absence of any proof whatsoever, despite the many obvious fallacies, contradictions and truly horrible things done in its name, millions, billions? Of people still believe- it's evolved with us probably since before we were human

truly horrible things done in its name, millions, billions?

Stalin killed around 50 million, Mao in the region of 45 million.

Is religion to blame for those deaths?

Kimbers - Its just that that sort of thing that boils the piss in my bladder!

Not your response, please don't think that. It's the fact that goes with it. "It persists in the complete absence of proof"

AAaaaaaaahhhh!!

In the absence of proof, science seeks that proof. Without proof, anything is merely a theory.

Is religion to blame for those deaths?

Maybe not religion in terms of a social club of (deranged) people but if it was 'God's will' that those wicked men existed, I guess it must his/her fault. He/She was probably just testing some bloke in Texas' faith.

The Bible is a creation of man put together a significant time after J the C was crucified. You're just picking a different tradition and set of man made ideas to follow.

OP I assume you saw my comment on the earlier thread. In an effort to cast things in a "modern" and secular context people have many philipsophies to deal with life's events which span anything from God's Will, to fate to sh1t happens. I am sure a bhuddist would have an explanation somewhere within that range. Who is to say another persons way of understanding is different.

We see many threads whuch discuss religion with those that speak of imaginary friends or fairly tales. Instead of trivialising elements such as these try and look at the power of something as simple as the Ten Commandments a value system which underpins so many modern societies, forms the basis of social behavioural standards and the law. Then take that and take the step to a belief that events are Gods Will instead of sh1t happens,

@kimbers we understand your point of view, the OP is trying to understand why people have this value system and how they rationalise it. If I might say so you have nothing to add on the subject, your view is "I don't believe in it" - we get that

sorry chap, I flounced earlier but like a moth to a flame, I'm back. only to say, childish edited childish. I blame the Malt.

a value system which underpins so many modern societies

I find that a tiny bit arrogant. You are not alone in this - religious types have this as a common failing. I see the 10 commandments (actually not all 10 - you can have the first four as self serving twonk) as humanity's value system - it kind of evolved just like the whole standing up thing. Religion just nabbed it and chucked it in a burning bush. The best bit is some of us don't need them as decreed rules, it just comes naturally.

Yep, Kona, Fairy tales and all that. I did point out that there was a lot of common sense on Halal & Kosher food practices. There was [i]some good[/i] that came about as a result of those practices.

Please, please point out the specific Sura in the Koran that dictates the women must wear the Niqab. Surely that's a good argument for men deciding what religion should dictate the rest of the populace should do?

I for one am a BIG fan of Niqabs and Burqas. As a European chap who spent my *ahem* formative years in Iran I am glad my male lustful desires were not inflamed.

There's a Creationist Museum in Utah that has an exhibit showing primitive Man hunting & killing Dinosaurs. Whoah - Proof if any...

Instead of trivialising elements such as these try and look at the power of something as simple as the Ten Commandments a value system which underpins so many modern societies, forms the basis of social behavioural standards and the law.

So why do Christians ignore the first two?

Religion just nabbed it. The best bit is some of us don't need them as decreed rules, it just comes naturally.

How do you know that "it just comes naturally" ?

Gods Will………..?

This may upset some folk but i consider that anyone that has a genuine belief in an all seeing/all encompassing God or deity must be mentally unhinged, surely in this day and age a belief in a creator of the universe/our earth/existence is akin to madness/crockofshite and should be considered as such.

Since a very early age at primary school i refused to go to church at the start/end of terms and as such it was myself and Andrew Shamash (token jewish kid) that spent our time in the art dept listening to music and drawing cartoons, don't get me started on the various High schools/academy's i attended as religious studies were a compulsory part of the curriculum which usually led to me making a sit down protest outside the classroom for the entire lesson or if i was dragged into the classroom (early/mid 80s when teachers could whack you/grab you) i would turn my desk and face the rear wall.

Religion is a farce, that's always been my opinion and the older i get the less patience i have for it.

This may upset some folk but i consider that anyone that has a genuine belief in an all seeing/all encompassing God or deity must be mentally unhinged

Actually your claim that most human beings are mentally unhinged makes you sound unhinged.

It's not me.......it's everyone else that's mad. Yeah right......of course it is.

How do you know that "it just comes naturally" ?

Good question - guess I'll never know. I didn't do the whole Sunday school thing so didn't actually read them until well into my teens but in all the time beforehand I never had unnatural thoughts about my neighbour's Ox (or pig come to that) if that helps.

didn't actually read them until well into my teens but in all the time beforehand I never .......

I dare say that before your teens you were influenced by a moral code which has its origins in religion.

I very much doubt that a baby leaves the womb with the concept that murder, stealing, shagging your neighbour's missus, etc, is unacceptable, already imprinted in their DNA. I disagree that "it just comes naturally".

Not fussed ernie - i may well be as mad as a box of bible bashing religious nut jobs, but how is it genuinely possible to place unwavering belief in your existence on this planet to a plagiarised rehash of an ancient Hallucinogenic ritual.

Ok…I could bite/answer back but there's better things i could be doing with my time such as contemplating the trials and tribulations of the wolf spider that is attempting to cross my ceiling so if you don't mind i'd rather not bother wasting my time arguing on forums or suchlike as i consider it narcissistic and a waste of energy.

PS : I'm not religious in anyway possible but i absolutely love an Ayahuascha or a DMT ritual every couple of years to [i]centre[/i] me so i guess i'm a conundrum wrapped up in an non religious shell?.

Whilst I agree that much of what we conceive to be right and wrong is social conditioning, I was more inferring that it does not need religious education to effect that - 'it came naturally'by being a member of the community rather than religious brainwashing. I contest that religion did not define that moral code (in its crudest form - it has been massaged locally by the dominant religion but the core values are almost universal) merely adopted it. Take the language used for instance - "shall not murder". Not kill note, but murder. Murder - 'To unlawfully kill' - based upon a predefined supposition of right and wrong. For religion(s) to take authorship of the core moral code that makes us human the world over is to distort history.

For religion(s) to take authorship of the core moral code that makes us human the world over is to distort history.

Not imo. I very much doubt that moral codes predate religion, in fact I'm sure they don't, and to suggest they do sounds like a distortion of history to me.

Well, we're down to pretty much the fundamentals of the well worn deist / atheist argument. For me the evidence points pretty much one way. Primate ethics research does it for me.

You don't need a religion for a moral code to exist. The role of religion has largely been to evolve and adapt and benefit the ruling class of the period whilst confusing people with mystical notions. That is not to say that religion may not be used to bring about social change, I'm sure that ISIS supporters see themselves as doing God's work as did liberation theologists. They are both wrong, however.

Agreed BillMC! Religious doctrines were developed and maintained by the ruling few to control the masses. Certainly in a time when mysticism prevailed.

Therefore, in my world, religion has nothing to do with the true nature of God. Because of the ruling doctrines, God is perceived as a deity, a he, a she. That's just pretty poor human conditioning, bordering on arrogance.

The key point here is that we all, each and everyone of us has our own experience of the world and who is to say, or cast judgement that one persons' experiences are false or true? Better or worse? It's so deeply personal to each individual that not one of us can stand up and negate another's feelings. Same goes with belief, faith, call it what you will.

I can go with faith being a coping mechanism. If my un-doctrined faith helps me be a better person, enables me to accept the many varied shades of grey, rather than needing everything in neat little boxes of true and false, right and wrong, fact and fiction, then that works for me and quite frankly, don't give too much of a shit if that is not for others. After all, it's my world, my life, my experience and as I said before, I'm good with that so long as it creates care, compassion and gratitude within me.

For those of you who can get along with no faith or belief, that's fine with me too! Even when, just like those who choose to belong to another, polar opposite way of thinking, that it needs shouting from the rooftops to seemingly try to confirm ones own beliefs.

But then, many people need to belong to a group, gain an identity, to tell them how they 'should' behave, think, act and react to their worlds. This often occurs when we are in our teens, whilst we're trying to figure out who we are and how we interact with the world around us. Sheep.

Go get your own world, your own life, dare to be different, dare to believe, in anything you want. Just think, feel and open up to the infinite possibilities that being a human being in this infinite Universe allows. It's not all black and white, so don't fear the greys!

...In the absence of proof, science seeks that proof. Without proof, anything is merely a theory.

"Science" is not the only way to understand life - and science doesn't seek anything, it is just a pattern of human thought.

Somafunk- if you refused to go to church or religious studies from a very young age (which you have the right to do, of course), how can you have an informed opinion on something you refused to learn about or understand?
It's a little bit like certain religious groups that refuse to learn or understand science and decide they know better, despite being totally uninformed.

and science doesn't seek anything.

Oh dear! Oh dear, Oh dear! The whole point of science from its very earliest days is to seek knowledge.

Somafunk- if you refused to go to church or religious studies from a very young age (which you have the right to do, of course), how can you have an informed opinion on something you refused to learn about or understand?

I know a religious education teacher who holds no personal belief but did a theology degree and dares to teach about it and a psychiatrist who specialises in sexual abusers but who has never been a paedophile herself. Shocking isn't it.

You don't have to be in the gang to have an interest and knowledge of the gang.

Convert- you missed my point (or maybe I didn't make it very well).

You're right, you don't have to be in the gang to have an interest or knowledge about the gang, but that was my point- soma funk seems to have an opinion based in neither knowledge nor interest.

I'm not suggesting that you have to have faith to teach or attend religious studies, but how can you have an informed opinion if you close your ears to understanding what other folks believe? You don't have to believe in God yourself to learn a little about religion.

Some interesting posts.. I was drawn (in a spiritual way perhaps) to this little snippet (cut from a post and not representing their view in any way.)

most human beings are mentally unhinged

Perhaps we could change 'most' to 'all'

I like the slackalice approach, just make stuff up... mmm! but then what happens when the sheep start following my made up stuff (bingo! we have more [s]bullshit[/s]/religion/faith/belief/)

Any takers for 2+2=Banana (how do you coax a sheep? tck,tck, here my pretty.)