I’m with the OP.
Id suggesting getting on the school roof in full hi viz Lycra with your bike, have a good rant before riding across the roof to the teachers car park, quick skid to spray a few tiles off in a machine gun style before dropping off onto the offending teachers Mondeo. Endo down the windscreen and ride off flicking the Vs.
Fuming is over reacting (edit, overreaction is to be expected where your kids are involved), if he's still upset about it tomorrow, maybe give them a ring, but in honesty a quick "my child is upset, could you tell me what happened please" should suffice. The teacher should also have explained it was about respect, they may have and your child took it as a telling off as he was the only one* it was being explained to. (Also if he was able to sit silently, without fidgeting etc for any length of time he's a lot better behaved than any 7 ish year old i know or indeed knew as a child)
Non religious school or no I'd still expect an element of CofE stuff, like Easter, the occasional prayer, harvest festival hymns, nativity plays etc.
If you're genuinely offended your kid is exposed to religion maybe you can ask for him to be excused from every religious activity.
Id suggesting getting on the school roof in full hi viz Lycra with your bike, have a good rant before riding across the roof to the teachers car park, quick skid to spray a few tiles off in a machine gun style before dropping off onto the offending teachers Mondeo. Endo down the windscreen and ride off flicking the Vs.
Call me an ambulance now, I'll go buy some hiviz
So perchy would you prefer I bow my head and pretend to pray
Refer you you to my previous answers but, as a full, card carrying, churchgoing, evolution believing Christian, my preference would be that you bow your head to avoid the previously described awkward eyeballing and keep quiet for the duration but other than that you don’t need to pretend to do anything and can carry on believing exactly what you like.
We’re all about tolerance and respect.
Edit: As it happens, I don’t believe in practicing religion in schools either but I try not be a dick about it
I’d still expect an element of CofE stuff, like Easter, the occasional prayer, harvest festival hymns, nativity plays etc.
🤮
Massive over reaction.
Explain to him that it’s perfectly Ok not to believe in God and not to pray if he doesn’t want to but that perhaps it’s the right thing to do to bow his head and remain quiet as a gesture of respect towards those people who do want to do it.
Just print this out and read it from time to time. That and grow up a bit your sounding like a toddler having a tantrum.
P.s life long atheist, son of a father who was an atheist and his father before him. But was brought up to have a bit of respect for other people's beliefs especially when it cost me nothing to do so.
The teacher's class the teacher's rules.
Learning to obey teacher's rules in class, regardless, does not mean the children get brainwashed.
The problem is that when parents do not teach their own children to question the children's own learning. i.e. what is the reasons for praying, why and why do it in class etc ... that is the problem. If the children are taught the fundamental of questioning everything the children learn then their minds are "guided" ...
😀
We’re all about tolerance and respect.
You should spread that good news!
I run a Scout troop and twice a year (St George and Remembrance) we make the kids attend church. We also bow our heads for prayer on troop night if we are in uniform. There is no opt out.
The actual prayer is led by the scouts and they can choose any subject from minecraft to match of the day as long as its relevant to what we've been doing and not rude.
I'm not a Christian and was raised agnostic but I tend to regard churches as a place of calm and centers for the community. I regard 'prayer' as a quiet time to get your shit together whether its in church or in the middle of the North York moors when you pause to look at the view and perhaps remember someone not as fortunate as yourself.
So yes, I think you are overreacting - in this day and age children get precious little spiritual guidance and need to learn how to think beyond themselves to the wider community. No, I don't think God has the answer or even exists but if you learn to close your eyes and think at 7 then maybe when you are older that practice might come in useful for thinking about real issues.
Also, children sometimes just need to do what they are told.
You should spread that good news!
I’m trying brother, but you ain’t buyin’ what I is sellin’ 😉
The teacher’s class the teacher’s rules
I'm pretty sure they mentioned something about more important rules to me when I went to teacher school!
what is the reasons for praying,
Well if you dont believe in it there are none...
I’m trying brother, but you ain’t buyin’ what I is sellin
Neither are a shit load of Christians maybe you should work on them. I'm a lost cause!
I run a Scout troop and twice a year (St George and Remembrance) we make the kids attend church. We also bow our heads for prayer on troop night if we are in uniform. There is no opt out.
Is that official scouting policy? Do you insist on the standard wording for your promise too? Have you consider whether your group is self selecting (and therefore excluding) young people who will tolerate this? Reflection and prayer are entirely different things.
He’s also allowed to like gays and hasnt had part of his cock chopped off.
I was brought up by an Irish Catholic mother and attended a school that had Nuns making up 50% of the teaching staff.
I was still allowed to like gays and still have 100% of what little I was given downstairs.
Was always encouraged to make my own decisions and believe whatever I wanted.
He also was told that Christians dont believe in evolution and think dino fossil are a hoax, this put him right off, he lives dinosaurs!!
Ah ok.
So you DO actually think it’s ok to tell kids lies, to indoctrinate them into believing things.
You just don’t like it when other people do it? Cool, good attitude.
Im sticking with massive overreaction.
I’m pretty sure they mentioned something about more important rules to me when I went to teacher school!
Bet they did not tell you the rules are also "power" to you otherwise what are those rules for? Micro management?
Well if you dont believe in it there are none…
There are many things in this world people don't believe in so are they all wrong?
It is Not a matter of believing or not, but a matter of knowing the reasons behind them. Isn't that what education is for?
For example, do you believe (this is a belief) there are "aliens, ETs or other beings" in the universe beside us? This is a belief as the evidence has not been found yet. Do you believe in this?
When I was at school the done thing was to bow your head, but try and catch the eye of one of your mates to get them to laugh so they got a bollocking.
No-one got upset (except the teacher when administering said bollocking), and afaik we all turned into reasonable, tolerant people.
Well I never knew that by not bowing my head at funerals and weddings I was offending people. I generally sit still facing straight ahead with my eyes open - I really don’t see much except the back of the person in front but if I happen to catch an eye it is that of another silent observer who is doing the same. I’m unclear why my lack of subservience in bowing my head would cause offence.
The teacher’s class the teacher’s rules.
What limits would you put on that? Is it ok for the teacher to mentally intimidate the kids? Physically threaten them? Racially abuse them? Smoke in class? Not bother teaching? Only teach their favourites?
That attitude is how major abuses of power happened unchallenged for decades. Not only should there be policies and rules to manage this but where schooling is funded by the state it’s appropriate for the state to regulate how teachers operate.
You should spread that good news!
I’m trying brother, but you ain’t buyin’ what I is sellin’
Try it door to door. Preferably really early on a Saturday morning. You could even bring a magazine or two. It’s a great idea that I don’t think any other religions have considered. I’d call one of the magazines something catchy like ‘Lookout’
It's all about context, which with respect we might not always get from all eight year olds when recalling an event...
If he was being disruptive to the class or lesson, then he should be told off. If he wasn't taking part in a prayer to a god he chooses not to believe in, but was sitting/standing there quietly, then I think the teacher was out of order and I'd be having a word. I'd not be jumping up and down about it, but I'd think it was inappropriate.
Can't help but think a child of another belief (other than atheist) would have been treat very differently.
@poly - Scouts is about many things and if done right can set up a young person for a life of thinking for themselves and living to their own set of values. To do that however they need a toolkit. That toolkit starts by learning that life just isn't always about you and what you want. So in answer to your questions, I would prefer they use the normal promise but if there is an objection to that then thats fine - as long as the objection comes from the young person involved and can be articulated by them, not from the parents. As for our troop being inclusive. all are welcome and if there was a potential scout (as there has been in the past) who had a clear reason for not attending a Christian church then obvs we would accomodate him/her. Is it self selecting? Yes. But not through the reasons you think.
It’s all about context, which with respect we might not always get from all eight year olds when recalling an event…
Indeed and he's a kid they can and often do lie.
However it wouldnt be hard for a teacher to do it in an inclusive manner
"We are now going to pray, if you dont want to bow your head and think of your familly"
Of course this may have been what happened and anagallis junior was just taking after his dad and being an arse!
Can’t help but think a child of another belief (other than atheist) would have been treat very differently.
Indeed
What limits would you put on that? Is it ok for the teacher to mentally intimidate the kids? Physically threaten them? Racially abuse them? Smoke in class? Not bother teaching? Only teach their favourites?
The rules are only as good as the rules can be provided the people exercising them are mindful.
"Mentally intimidating them with prayers? Knowing the rights from wrongs?"
As parents haven't you (generally speaking) taught your children to beware of things they see, learn and hear? Haven't you taught your children to guard their minds and the way to deal with them? Who they learn from?
These examples are exactly the the responsibilities of the parents. If parents have taught them rightly then children can venture as far as they wish without being "brainwashed" or "intimidated" or even harmed.
Racially abuse them? Smoke in class?
I am sure these two examples do not exist in this day and age. Unless, the teacher is asking for a career suicide.
Only teach their favourites?
This example is inevitable as teachers are not perfect but there is No way you can proof this.
Can’t help but think a child of another belief (other than atheist) would have been treat very differently.
Indeed
It’s very easy to assume that as it suits your agenda of being an atheist persecuted by the god squad...
But as you said, you have no idea what happened really, and he could have just been an arse, and got a bollocking for it.
Would a child of a different faith who was being an arse have been treated very differently ?
Unlikely.
Chewkw, I think you need a reboot.
How many assumptions did you make there? I've not said that I'm atheist and certainly don't 'feel persecuted by a god-squad'.
As I said, if the kid was misbehaving or being disruptive, then expect a bollocking. If he's being told off for not taking part in a prayer to a god (of any religion), then I think that's inappropriate.
Would a child of a different faith who was being an arse have been treated very differently ?
Unlikely.
Agreed, but that's not what I meant.
How many assumptions did you make there? I’ve not said that I’m atheist and certainly don’t ‘feel persecuted by a god-squad’.
None.
I was replying to AA, who readily agreed with your assumption, just after admitting it was fairly likely his lad could have been arsing around and simply got a bollocking.
Chewkw, I think you need a reboot.
My question to you is do you believe in life beyond planet earth?
Apart from my question above.
You really have two choices if you think your child is impacted by the teacher's action.
1. Report the teacher for abusing his/her role.
2. Maintain the status quo. i.e.do nothing.
If you do not take action then your child will see you as someone who is inaction. However, any action you take might have consequences on your child as the power resides in the teacher.
Therefore, you either go all out to make sure the teacher knows his/her place or avoid confrontation by guarding your child's mind.
Okay. I thought it was to me. Maybe I do feel persecuted after all 🙂
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/collective-worship-in-schools
All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual,moral and cultural development. Parents can withdraw their children, all you need to do is write to the Head, I think sixth formers can decide for themselves.
Pitchforks down every-one.
Are we talking down the OP or talking down to him? I get so confused.
Are we talking down the OP or talking down to him? I get so confused.
From me neither ...
I am just saying watch out as the "unseen forces" are strong.
Happened to my niece and nephew (both non-native speakers) because the teachers could not be bothered ... not related to religious issues. So we had to weight up whether to confront or to deal with the issues indirectly. We had to change schools 3 times.
We have a situation in that one of our neighbours is a canon. He is elderly and quite evangelical and regards god's work as his calling.
When we moved in with a 1 month old he did ask me whether we'd be getting him christened as he would like to carry out the service. Quite interestingly he never asked me what my religion is! I rebuffed him quite quickly on the basis that if any of our kids want to choose a religion then they would choose it for themselves. I wasn't rude, just firm.
A couple of months later, I found out he'd had the same conversation with my wife after I'd said no. He'd also brought the issue up with her again as a reminder. Eventually she told him the same as I had and he got a bit sniffy and replied "it's god's way of welcoming little ones to the world". <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">To his credit he hasn't raised that issue again, but it helped me clarify my mind over religion and I now tick the "none" box rather than coe.</span>
I'd be happy if my kids were to take the approach of the OP's. I don't agree that you should bow your head "just because" and the last time I was in church I was having a good look around at the architecture whilst others chose to mumble along. I would probably remove my footwear if visiting a mosque and cover my head in a synagogue and not chat through the sermon though.
I think I'd be worried that my kids would be being pushed/ forced / coerced down a path of subservience without enough data, and a teacher has other stuff they need kids to believe in first.
He also was told that Christians dont believe in evolution and think dino fossil are a hoax, this put him right off, he lives dinosaurs!!
You know that's not true, don't you?
1. Report the teacher for abusing his/her role.
2. Maintain the status quo. i.e.do nothing.
I'm pretty sure some other options are open to me.
All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual,moral and cultural development.
I was talking about that on another thread a few days ago and as I said then I've been teaching 15 years, never seen it happen. Its a joke law everyone ignores, strangely its not that old though, from the John Major era I believe. Also if it was to happen daily I'm pretty sure my son would come home telling me about it just now, further as I described above it could easily be done in an inclusive manner.
You know that’s not true, don’t you?
Not for all, some do some dont. I didnt tell him this by the way, no idea where he got it from.
Hi Anagallis,
Did the incident happen during class-time or was it during the after-school club? Was it a well meaning but naive new member of teaching staff or was the member of staff a bit more "fundamental" in their views?
My 8 year-old goes to a very NON-religious school that serves all sections of the community. It has a history of being a very inclusive school but when a new Headteacher arrived about 2 years ago, things started to change.
The new Head invited a "Youth Group" to do some Community based work during lunchtimes and during after-school clubs.
Turns out the "Youth Group" was actually a spin-off of the local Christian church. After I did a bit of research I discovered that the group in question had strong ties to Texan Christian Fundamentalists and have sent "envoys" all over the world (hiring office space at local churches and then working with local schools providing FREE resources and child-care) - quite attractive to any cash-strapped school. However, the over-riding remit is to "disciple" as many young people as possible.
As you can guess, a number of parents were concerned. I waited until the Head had his annual "Meet the Head" evening at school. It was an open forum (that would be minuted) and after listening to his speech about how much "improved" the school was and letting everyone else speak, I hit him with a few questions like,
"Is it sill OK to read Harry Potter? Do dinosaurs exist? Is it OK to be gay? What are your views on gender equality and the role of women? Is it OK to read "Winnie the Witch?" Was Darwin wrong?
I also pointed out that the parent Texan Church was the only church that I had ever heard of with its own gun range and free "Consealed/Carry" courses after Sunday service.
He simply said that a "review" was taking place and that the work of the Youth Group would be considered.
The following week, I kept up the pressure with a well timed e-mailed (copying in the governers and the Head of the Academy. I even "doorstopped" the leader of the "Youth Group" and asked her view on gay rights etc
Within a few days all parents received an e-mail confirming that the "Youth Group" no longer worked at the School and the School were ceasing all contact.
I'm inclined to give the Head a bit of slack and say that he was just a bit busy and didn't do his research. Thing is, I did. That Texan church had some right weird Podcasts on its website. All hell-fire and brimstone stuff. Non-believers, blacks and sinners should die etc Bat-shit crazy stuff that I don't want my kid (or anyone elses kid) subjected to at all.
I'm not sure of your situation but if it's these guys ( https://paismovement.com/) be very careful! They look all touchy-feely-nice don't they!
As a fellow teacher, you will be well aware of the "Prevent Agenda." You have been warned!
It would be interesting to know if he was told to pray or just to bow his head. Also - in class rather than assembly? I wonder what the lesson was about.
I wonder if there was a child in the class from a Muslim background if they would forced them to fake a christian prayer too.
But yes, I'm with you OP - anything that smells vaguely of forced religious observance, especially of a minor, needs stamping on really hard.What the sad deluded fools want to do behind closed doors is up to them but the only way we'll break the cycle is to prevent them from normalising ritualised religious observance/ brain washing to those in a position where they are force to comply, in this case through age and position of authority.
*only caveat - just make sure he wasn't being a dick. All up for sitting up and looking around whilst those who must do their thing but probably best not to hum, talk or pick your nose. Even I have limits!
I wonder who is the best in here at fake praying. I reckon I'd be up there after years of practicing from primary and secondary school. We even had a singing version of the Lord's Prayer. I think we should meet for a fake pray off. Perchy and SR can be the judges.
I’m a catholic - we’re all expert at fake praying 😂
Explain to him that it’s perfectly Ok not to believe in God and not to pray if he doesn’t want to but that perhaps it’s the right thing to do to bow his head and remain quiet as a gesture of respect towards those people who do want to do it.
Surely it’s the responsibility of the adults in charge at the time to have a reasoned and sensible approach to dealing with such a situation, not a small child.
Explain to him that it’s perfectly Ok not to believe in God and not to pray if he doesn’t want to but that perhaps it’s the right thing to do to bow his head and remain quiet as a gesture of respect towards those people who do want to do it.
It’s what I do should I find myself in those circumstances. Which is very rarely. I was brought up to work out for myself what to believe, my mum was questioned on this by some family members, and when she told them that, she was told, “oh, I do feel so sorry for you”, a condescending and patronising response that really got my mum’s hackles up. My dad had recently died, so couldn’t back her up. Not that she needed it. The point is, though, that I have no belief in a religious sense, I’m a pantheistic humanist, but I’m grown up enough to know that plenty of people do, a friend of mine of many years is a Catholic, her dad was Irish Catholic, and she went to Catholic schools. Should I be at some sort of event with her and other close friends where prayer was involved, then I would do exactly as in the quote above, out of respect for my friends and whatever beliefs they have. It’s only right and proper; to do otherwise is a real dick move.
I have only skimmed thru the thread.
There is no way a teacher should be doing this in class .
this is the right thing to tell the kid surely:
Explain to him that it’s perfectly Ok not to believe in God and not to pray if he doesn’t want to but that perhaps it’s the right thing to do to bow his head and remain quiet as a gesture of respect towards those people who do want to do it.
However I would be raising it with the school to find out what happened Forcing kids to pray is not on
My question to you is do you believe in life beyond planet earth?
Life after death, no. Life on other planets, statistically likely (though we'll never meet them).
All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily collective worship
Doesn't sound like what the OP describes fits either of those criteria.
It wasn't religious education, it was religious practice. And it wasn't collective worship (ie, assembly), it was in an isolated classroom.
anything that smells vaguely of forced religious observance, especially of a minor, needs stamping on really hard.
Forcing kids to pray is not on
Without a parental request for their child to be withdrawn, that’s <b>exactly</b> what schools have to do though as the Link on the previous page stated.
Yes, it might get ignored by many schools, but apparently not by this one.
And he wasn’t being “forced to pray” either really was he. He was “told off for not bowing his head”
For a teacher with 30 wild 7 year olds to deal with, and one of them is refusing to cooperate with a simple request to stand still for 30 seconds and look at the floor so they can get something done that they are required to do, I can imagine it would be a reasonable for them to hand out a mild bollocking.
