[Closed] God and the Afterlife......?

just find the whole concept a little far fetched

It's at times like these that I like to ask myself WWFS (What Would Feynman Say).

He said this:

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."

I think that if there is a God, he's some kind of scientist who's fired a couple of particles into his trans-dimenstional accelerator to create the Big Bang and is now watching it with interest from outside. Maybe a raised eyebrow.

I hope you're right Molgrips.. 😀

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edit: pic didn't work

😆 @yunki

I'm afraid I can't say whether there is a god or not, whether there is an afterlife or properly assess whether all/any religions are corrupt.

I can say that there on this thread there are huge amounts of disrespect shown to people. From some there seems to be a lack of decency and also a lack of emotional intelligence. I know this is the internet but there does need to be a level of basic civility and regard.

I don't mind a healthy debate but this is ridiculous. Some times it feels like this place is amazing. Some times it feels like a school playground where some people think it's all right to grossly deride, insult or bully others maybe attacking people from some imaginary high ground. Funnily enough, it isn't.

I can say that there on this thread there are huge amounts of disrespect shown to people. From some there seems to be a lack of decency and also a lack of emotional intelligence. I know this is the internet but there does need to be a level of basic civility and regard.

I agree, but then that is generally what happens in this type of discussion. Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me. Surely they should just forgive us?

Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Hold on back again.. You're not wrong there Mol, and I try to show respect for others beliefs..
But can I just play Devil's advocate for a moment..
Imagine it was discovered that Melvyn, the 46 year old welder at work in the same workshop as you believed in Father Christmas.. Would he not get a bit of pisstaking?

I agree, but then that is generally what happens in this type of discussion.

I just don't get why being respectful of each other seems an impossibility when opinions differ. It's not hard to respect the personhood of someone else. Should be the default position, no...?

Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me.

Questioning is good in all things. People having different ideas and beliefs is also more healthy for humanity surely?

Surely they should just forgive us?

From his mates, maybe, if he wasn't upset by it.

But can I just play Devil's advocate for a moment.. Imagine it was discovered that Melvyn, the 46 year old welder at work in the same workshop as you believed in Father Christmas.. Would he not get a bit of pisstaking?

I would ask different questions as the devils advocate.

Why do we think we can ridicule others for what they believe?

What drives some people to take the piss out of others?

Should the ridiculousness of Melvin's beliefs be of any importance or concern to anyone else?

Is there need to be more mindful of our own position rather than the position of others?

If you view our universe as a snow globe (one of those shake 'em and watch the snow settle paperweight thingys),
it seems entirely within our grasp to measure and discover all the workings therein.

I'm interested to know what's outside and whether we'll ever comprehend that bit.

If it isn't finite and goes on forever, we're left with the human questions of why, how and what for.
If it was a chance event that something came from nothing it goes against our causal way of thinking.

Wish I could be around when we crack that one, but fear I'll go to my grave as bewildered as I am now 😉

molgrips - Member

I think that if there is a God, he's some kind of scientist who's fired a couple of particles into his trans-dimenstional accelerator to create the Big Bang and is now watching it with interest from outside. Maybe a raised eyebrow.

A sick experiment. The lab door will be jemmied open by an ethical direct action group to liberate our particles any time now.

Either that or because the universe is so imperfect it could only have been created following instructions from the executive board of the General Universe Company.

Yeah, or maybe we're a beta version.

molgrips - Member
From his mates, maybe, if he wasn't upset by it.

cobblers (with all due respect) if he truly believed in something that wasn't a recognised religion most people would right royally rip the piss

They might well do. SHOULD they though?

I suspect that is where some of us differ. I would not rip the piss out of someone who was being upset by it. Why? What does that achieve?

I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

lazybike - Member

I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

Some times it feels like a school playground where some people think it's all right to grossly deride, insult or bully others maybe attacking people from some imaginary high ground

As for respect it really depends. I imagine no one speaks like this to actual people about religion in the real world. I have friends who are deep of faith and , on balance, I tend to admire the way they try to live their life by a moral code. They tend to be very nice folk however that belief is not real or a good one.

. It's not hard to respect the personhood of someone else.

you may also want to have a read up on what religion says about non believers or what it has historically done to those who disagree with them and its not exactly nice or tolerant. That argument cuts both ways IMHO

I dont find being told I am a sinner who is going to hell for not following their rules all that nice tbh - would you say it is nice or respectful?

SHOULD they though?

Look at David Icke/ alex Jones and conspiracists types/ westbro baptist church - should we respect their beliefs because they are sincere or point out how ludicrous they are and challenge them?

Bloody hell we do it when folk claim 650 b brings the trail alive - now they may actually believe that but it seem ok to take the piss , a little at least, about this

I love those...

Should the ridiculousness of Melvin's beliefs be of any importance or concern to anyone else?

Yes, I think they should be of concern to others. As an Employee of Melvin, or a co-worker of Melvin, I'd be concerned that I was employing or working with someone who came to fundamentally irrational decisions on the evidence presented to them.
Likewise the likes of Blair declaring that they decide to go into Irag because God told them to is deeply worrying to me.

lazybike - Member
I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

Me, I don't know one way or the other, which must make me an Agnostic, but when in trouble I can't help myself pray God Help me, sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. I bet everyone here if we were in a plane together and it was about to crash, would join me..

I would meditate to find inner calm so that when i was reincarnated i did not return with fear

or I would try and join the mile high club 😉

I would probably shit my pants and just be sacred as I awaited death but I would not be praying

I wonder how many agnostics invoke the name of god during orgasm...

IanMunro - Member

Likewise the likes of Blair declaring that they decide to go into Irag because God told them to is deeply worrying to me.

Its not the atheists on the imaginery high ground

There is no high ground - hence why it is imaginary. No high ground for either side.

As for respect it really depends. I imagine no one speaks like this to actual people about religion in the real world.

Why the double standards here then? This is the 'real world'. The people here are 'actual' and just as deserving of consideration.

that belief is not real or a good one.

I suggest that is not for you to judge no matter which side of the debate you are on.

Depends what they belief - Hitler - forgive the goodwin - should i respect him by default?

Ethically,you are on a slippery slope with this attitude. If you can't see why already (which your statement suggests) then I cannot illuminate you further.

I also think you are confusing our attitude towards their faith and our attitude towards them

Perhaps it is the way people have articulated their points which leads to my perspective.

you may also want to have a read up on what religion says about non believers or what it has historically done to those who disagree with them and its not exactly nice or tolerant. That argument cuts both ways IMHO

Do you honestly think I am ignorant of this...?

I dont find being told I am a sinner who is going to hell for not following their rules all that nice tbh - would you say it is nice ?

SHOULD they though?

No.

I dont know should ludicrous ideas be left unchallenged ?

Challenge is hugely different from ridicule.

Look at David Icke/ alex Jones and conspiracists types/ westbro baptist church - should we respect their beliefs because they are sincere or point out how ludicrous they are and challenge them?

I think challenge is appropriate. I don't think stopping respecting the humanity of people based on their beliefs is defensible.

Bloody hell we do it when folk claim 650 b brings the trail alive - now they may actually believe that but it seem ok to take the piss , a little at least, about this

Look I am fine with debate on the trifling matter of religion Vs. atheism. Wheel size is life or death - let's not get into that, it gets too emotive...

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Well there were a couple of choice phrases such as

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Which in the context of the post I took to mean an insult to those of us who were questioning the the entire concept of god and an afterlife. The of course there is the perennial "militant atheist" jibe which is always a fun insult to hear. Don't get me wrong I am by no means saying that there wasn't plenty of back and forward but it is disingenuous at best to imply that it was all one way traffic and that was the point of my post. I also couldn't resist the "forgive us" quote Bill Hick really was a genius.

It is also a common trait to try and present the theistic viewpoint as being somehow oppressed and a persecuted and injured minority whose beliefs deserve special treatment when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Theistic belief is the majority stand point and already occupies a privileged position in UK society and that is one thing that I would like to change (the privilege bit that is). I have no desire whatsoever to "convert" anyone to atheism, or "turn them away from god" but that does not mean that I won't criticise the teachings of those religions and nor does it mean that I won't point out the twisted logic that some of those beliefs require.

Have a read of this, puts everything into perspective

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fabric-Cosmos-Texture-Reality/dp/0141011114

Junkyard - lazarus

I would meditate to find inner calm so that when i was reincarnated i did not return with fear

or I would try and join the mile high club

I would probably shit my pants and just be sacred as I awaited death but I would not be praying

Reincarnated? i.e present mind / soul whatever is being transferred to another body in future ... hmmm ... Which belief are you referring to exactly?

Praying before death? 😆 That's a bit too late innit if you have not lived an honest life?

cruzcampo - Member

Have a read of this, puts everything into perspective

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fabric-Cosmos-Texture-Reality/dp/0141011114

Ask the author what is the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of ... big bang. 🙄

Why the double standards here then?

I agree with your broad point the internet is real - it is.

I guess if a religious friend asked me about atheism I would speak as i have here but we rarely discuss it as we know we would debate/disagree/argue so why bother*?
Likewise they dont preach to me or behave as if they are in the mosque

* one did accuse of me indoctrinating my kids in to veganism - i pointed out his kids went to an Islamic school and were learning the Koran off by heart - he accepted the point graciously as we moved on - we both were/are to some degree

I do so hope that's not true, I hate than man beyond even the loathing I have for Brown, Cameron & Osbourne, where did you read that?

Well publicised at the time. I'm amazed you missed it.

Funny how it's mandatory for a US president to blather on about his imaginary friend, but if a British PM does it we all think he's mental.

You mean why do I behave differently in different contexts?
I would not say a word about atheism/how daft this all was if I were in a church at a wedding or a funeral - is that equally bad and I should have a rant about them there?

Behaviours do differ - but should the level of respect that you accord others change...? People are people, respect is respect.

I agree with your broad point the internet is real - it is.
I guess if a religious friend asked me about atheism I would speak as i have here but we rarely discuss it as we know we would debate/disagree/argue so why bother*?

I think the same holds true here. We know the way people behave and what many who contribute think already. There is no useful purpose in discussing when we know that there is no achievable consensus nor much chance of illumination.

Likewise they dont preach to me or behave as if they are in the mosque

* one did accuse of me indoctrinating my kids in to veganism - i pointed out his kids went to an Islamic school and were learning the Koran off by heart - he accepted the point graciously as we moved on - we both were/are to some degree

Your children - their children. Do as you both will.

More importantly, matters of life and death now. What wheel size do you prefer? 😉 Don't answer whatever you do leave this sacred question alone!

We know the way people behave and what many who contribute think already. There is no useful purpose in discussing when we know that there is no achievable consensus nor much chance of illumination.

Somebody says this in every religious thread. Then I point out that the religion threads on here changed my opinion on religion.

Ask the author what is the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of ... big bang.

It could be said cause is a human concept, doe there have to be a cause? 😆

It could be said cause is a human concept

Somebody says this in every religious thread. Then I point out that the religion threads on here changed my opinion on religion.

Obviously I was wrong then!

J

Its Sunday night, so....

1)Science's ultimate and obvious purpose is to get us out of our meat bodies, and into something permanent and sustainable
2)As such, science and religion will ultimately converge
3)This will be done by making human consciousness 'one' with the 'universe'
4)We will do this
5)When we get there, we will find that others have already got there, through various means
6)Rinse and repeat

Is sunday big lebowski night in your house DUDE?

Heh heh, JY...

No.

[b]Thread closed. Thread Closed. [/b]

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we will find that others have already got there, through various means

*waves*

5thElefant - Member

Funny how it's mandatory for a US president to blather on about his imaginary friend, but if a British PM does it we all think he's mental.

There's a line here, though. Acting based on your moral code of which religion is a part- ok. Acting because you believe you are the hammer of God- not so ok.

hammer of God

Led Zep content

TBH I am a really not comfortable with these tBlair and Bush sitting down to pray together for gods guidance before deciding to invade some foreign lands.

TBH I am a really not comfortable with these tBlair and Bush sitting down to pray together for gods guidance before deciding to invade some foreign lands.

Well you could look at it in another way. If this is how they behave when they think that someone will judge them for their actions; can you imagine how they would behave if they thought that they wouldn't be held to account by a higher power.

As much as anyone dislikes religion, its very good at making people think about their actions and at least try to justify them; not that it helps massively when people are deluded.