[Closed] Gender privilege

So men are privileged a way that so subtle not everyone understands it.

Ways I'm privileged:

- No-one has ever asked to speak to a woman bike mechanic instead of me.
- No-one has ever suggested I should have sex with them to get ahead in my job.
- No-one has ever talked to my partner about technical things instead of me when I'm standing right there.
- I have to worry much less about being physically attacked by someone bigger and stronger than I am.
- I feel little societal pressure to be the one who stays home with the kids.
- My appearance isn't commented on by strangers.

I could go on.

Why can't you go through a simple thread without people wilfully lying about a non-existant gender pay gap.

Christ even the wikipedia article explains the myth.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#7ba1c32c2596

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/why-are-women-paid-less/263776/

https://harvardmagazine.com/2016/05/reassessing-the-gender-wage-gap

There is a pay gap between people willing to work long hours in difficult jobs and those who want to spend their time raising a family.

Neither are more valid or valuable, stop politicising it.

So men are privileged a way that so subtle not everyone understands it.

I'd love to know how I'm privileged.

There is a pay gap between people willing to work long hours in difficult jobs and those who want to spend their time raising a family.

As women generally take time out to have children - I'm sure this thread thinks it's discrimination that men can't. If you have less time to earn, perhaps it's important that it's quality.

I'd also suggest most blokes address Ben's list too

I'd love to know how I'm privileged.

how many women are blocked by people worried about them leaving

women generally take time out to have children

I can't help but wonder if these two points might be related in some way...

as above

none of that applies to me.

I can't help but wonder if these two points might be related in some way...

There is a pay gap between people willing to work long hours in difficult jobs and those who want to spend their time raising a family.

Have you ever met a nurse?

I know best keep them in their place otherwise who is going to wash your pants

Indeed, and their place is in the workplace, not washing pants. So equal retirement age ASAP can only be a good thing. Should have happened decades ago.

Have you ever met a nurse?

Equal retirement age should help female Nurses work as long as male nurses. A welcome change, surely?

I'd also suggest most blokes address Ben's list too

For a start...

- I have to worry much less about being physically attacked by someone bigger and stronger than I am.

as does not addressing the other points

Is related to size and strength, not gender

Men are more likely to be assaulted/murdered than women:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

So that point is nonsense.

The privilege issue isn't about individuals but about the way that society is structured which overall favours men, especially in work.

If it is taken down to an individual level then it's easy to draw an example where X woman is successful and Y man struggles so privilege is not true -but is a false comparison and you have to draw equivalence across a much wider cross section.

Privilege- actually I think advantage is a better - word cuts across more than gender, class is a huge influencing factor for example. All these things create a complicated landscape

Is related to size and strength, not gender and is the sort of generalism that weakens the rest of his argument. There are husbands suffering physical abuse from their wives who are too ashamed to come forward about it due to those types of comments.

There are men abused by their wives, of course. But statistically they are in the minority - just look at the statistics for women murdered by their partners or ex-partners.

It it partly about being physically bigger and stronger - were you really trying to deny that men on average are physically bigger and stronger than women? But it is also about men who feel like they own women - the "are you looking at my bird?" effect.

Men are more likely to be assaulted/murdered than women

More likely to be assaulted/murdered [u]by men[/u] which pretty much proves the point. Men are more dangerous than women.

I think if I was to sum up some of this it would be
[img] [/img]
White Male seeks Moral High Ground

But it is also about men who feel like they own women - the "are you looking at my bird?" effect.

Aye, of course 😀

But that doesn't alter the statistics.

The privilege issue isn't about individuals but about the way that society is structured which overall favours men, especially in [b]work[/b].

"Arbeit macht frei".

If work's so good let's lower the retirement age ASAP so women can share the joy.

It's a shame you seem to live in a sheltered place where women don't work, a hell of a lot do.
Oh and calssy concentration camp quote
[img] [/img]

seosamh77 - Member
any chance of repeating that in swahili?

Wachache tu wataelewa

It's a shame [b]you[/b] seem to live in a sheltered place where women don't work, a hell of a lot do.

Not just me, it seems:

women generally take time out to have children

Northwind - Member

Sustaining the human race isn't a "lifestyle choice".

These days, unless you live in an area where birth control / abortion is unavailable, it most certainly is a lifestyle choice in the 'western world'. Being of the age where most of my friends have or are having young children, open discussion of number of kids and impact on household finances, working arrangements and general quality of life is common.

know what you are saying or should women drop em at lunch? many will be back as soon as stat maternity ends as they can't afford anything else.

So your privilege is to earn money and retain domestic help? Your wife's is? To have a generous benefactor who employs her to keep the house clean? What if she was single? What would that mean?

When I was single I worked and did the household chores....shock horror, it wasn't that difficult.
I'm assuming a woman could do the same?

....or are you bringing children into this?

If so, I know the answer to that too....my little sister is currently doing it, partner walked out leaving her with the baby and the state has taken up the slack....to the extent she was even able to become a full-time student and get a degree done on benefits, I work full time, don't have kids and can't afford to go back to uni even though it would benefit my career.

But you're right, poor hard done by women in this day and age....i could also talk about the privilege women enjoy in family court hearings, brother in law with part time work, child care arrangements and own house lost out to methadone addict, alcoholic, sex worker ex girlfriend (who'd had her first child taken into care) because the Neanderthal view of the social workers and court was that "a child should be with its mother" despite all of the above and not being able to offer any evidence why this sound be the case....he was then told by the court to pay back nearly 6 months benefits he'd been receiving while the child lived with him leading up to the case...erm why?....the money had been used to support the child but in the eyes of the court that was the mother's money apparently and she'd been missing out for 6 months!....the fact that she had nobody to look after except herself for that period seemed lost on them, he got properly f###ed over that day by a family court so biased towards women you couldn't make it up.

Currently the child misses days of schooling a week, the school says it's none off their business to report this to social services....i wonder if they'd be so chilled if it was the father depriving the child of education each week?....the child doesn't attend the speech therapy the court mandated it gord to, does the mother get reprimanded?...does she heck...the child is now old enough to say that it doesn't want to go back to the mother's place after a weekend with my brother in law, it says "mummy shouts, mummy phone, mummy sleep"....as I said above, she spends her time in a stupor or on her phone and if the child interrupts he gets shouted at....do social services want to do anything about this?...guess the answer!

Male privilege?....don't make me laugh.

Being of the age where most of my friends have or are having young children, open discussion of number of kids and impact on household finances, working arrangements and general quality of life is common.

And this is one place where it's unequal. Because there's a basic inequality there - men can't breastfeed. Lots of women go back to work after having a child, but it is unequal - it is harder for women to go back to work than it is for men. So women suffer both ways - they're less likely to be employed because employers think they might leave to have a child, and it's harder for them to get back into work after having a child.

many will be back as soon as stat maternity ends as they can't afford anything else.

Dontcha think it's great that those woman have overcome:

societal pressure to be the one who stays home with the kids.

men can't breastfeed

we can bottle feed expressed milk.

trying hard there OOB, maybe head out into the real world for a change, when were you last felt up, when were you last overlooked for an explanation, when was your face ignored for your body?

we can bottle feed expressed milk.

Of course. Or there's formula. But the former still requires the woman to be involved - it helps but it's not equal.

and probably pee sitting down

Which is a luxury you should try more often. Take the weight off your feet and relax. During the night peeing sitting down means you don't even have to open your eyes. Its amazing.

it helps but it's not equal.

but that's a stupid comparison though.

But the former still requires the woman to be involved

There's an obvious solution. Why not offset the maternity leave years against retirement, so the women who are unfortunate enough to miss out on those glorious years of work that men enjoy can gain them back later.

2 Kids = 2 years maternity leave = retire at 69.

In the tennis grand slams women get equal pay but play best of 3 sets unlike the men who play best of 5. If I was a woman tennis player I'd be up in arms about this! So ****ing patronising!

Why not offset the maternity leave years against retirement, so the women who are unfortunate enough to miss out on those glorious years of work that men enjoy can gain them back later.

OOB have you sound like you really hate your job 🙁

Obvious Troll is obvious....

OOB have you sound like you really hate your job

I don't hate my job, I just *love* weekends and holidays.

footflaps - Member
Obvious Troll is obvious....

They also all blend into the whole MRA/Incel thing.

Trolls or not, there's some appalling, ignorant comment being banded around this thread which there is quite simply no need for.

Whether crap like this is meant as a joke or not, its not funny, unhelpful, and damaging.

Out of interest, what would happen if similar "banter" about an ethnic minority was being used?

ctk - Member

In the tennis grand slams women get equal pay

But much less in sponsorship and endorsements, and less overall- Serena Williams is the world's highest earning female athlete but the entire top 50 highest earning athletes are male

They don't get paid by the hour so 3 vs 5 doesn't really signify.

Yes but do you think they should play 5 sets?

Women's tennis would be more exciting if they did.

[img] [/img]

Women's tennis would be more exciting if they did.

ctk - Member

Yes but do you think they should play 5 sets?

I'd rather see 3 good sets than 5 bad ones. Womens' tennis is often more interesting than men's.

Roger Federer earns roughly twice as much as Serena Williams, maybe he should play twice as many sets

Roger Federer earns roughly twice as much as Serena Williams, maybe he should play twice as many sets

He probably does ffs!

scotroutes - Member

Women's tennis would be more exciting if they did.

I don't think it would. It would default to being a game of stamina rather than skill.

Like the mens game?

Northwind - Member

I'd rather see 3 good sets than 5 bad ones.

But what about 5 good ones? Surely your not saying women couldn't sustain a decent quality for 5 sets?

I think women could play good tennis for 5 sets.

zippykona - Member
If I go to a wedding ,a funeral or a posh restaurant (even if it’s on a tropical island) I have to encase all my body in clothing. From my toes to the noose around my neck.
Ladies don’t have to.
That’s an equality I would like.

But you can and I have done so on many occasions.

Just bear in mind the only conversations you will have will be about what you are wearing/where you got it etc and no-one will care about your job/political opinions/you as a person. It's like you are just a clothes horse. But that's pretty much what we are talking about isn't it.

More likely to be assaulted/murdered by men which pretty much proves the point. Men are more dangerous than women.

what's that got to do with privilege? Men are more dangerous, so I'm allowed to be more dangerous as a man? Regardless of who's doing the attacking, if men are more likely to be attacked then its arguably a disadvantage for them (although it gets complex when a lot of those attacks may be related to other behavior by aforementioned man).

Why not offset the maternity leave years against retirement, so the women who are unfortunate enough to miss out on those glorious years of work that men enjoy can gain them back later.

its an interesting point, but maybe the retirement age of women SHOULD be later than men. Surely working for 80% (or whatever the number would be) of your expected life is fairer than both sexes having to support the longer pensions of 50% of the population?

its an interesting point, but maybe the retirement age of women SHOULD be later than men. Surely working for 80% (or whatever the number would be) of your expected life is fairer than both sexes having to support the longer pensions of 50% of the population?

Take the point. Then you come down to how you define fairness/equality. I think most non-sexist people would agree women should retire at the same point as men, but how you define 'same' is tricky. Same age, or same proportion of average life expectancy?

[quote=5lab ]Surely working for 80% (or whatever the number would be) of your expected life is fairer than both sexes having to support the longer pensions of 50% of the population?
Seems fair to me. After all, the argument for delaying the payment of the state pension has all been to do with life expectancy.

I have to worry much less about being physically attacked by someone bigger and stronger than I am

They don't get paid by the hour so 3 vs 5 doesn't really signify

I think the poor wee men trying to pretend we men get the worst deal are either trolling or dense but that is no reason to gloss over the very very few occasions when its women who have the advantage/best deal.

Womens' tennis is often more interesting than men's.

😯

No disrespect to our lady pros, but really....

Hi, sorry I’m late I actually had to work today.

I see you’ve started without me. Can someone catch me up 😀

There's a shiney thing over there ====>

😆

If you want to have retirement age as say 80% of life expectancy then men in easterhouse would retire at 40, women in sussex at 75

If you want to have retirement age as say 80% of life expectancy then men in easterhouse would retire at 40, women in sussex at 75

The problem with that is that men in Easterhouse and women in Sussex don't tend to work......though for rather different reasons one would imagine. (-:

Well it is all nice of you to try and reform pension ages going forward for those of us that will work till we die, much more equal system.

Still no equality sorted in this thread yet... I hope all the blokes got home to find the dishes done and dinner in the table #70slife

Well it is all nice of you to try and reform pension ages going forward for those of us that will work till we die, much more equal system.

You do rather have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about this, don't you? Just relax, the next 50 or so years will just fly by!!

So why do men die younger?

Have you bothered to do any research?
As it's November/Movember there is a lot to look at
https://au.movember.com/mens-health/prostate-cancer
https://au.movember.com/mens-health/testicular-cancer
https://au.movember.com/mens-health/mental-health
Lack of basic care, lack of awareness, not getting checked for curable disease
https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2013/06/17/192670490/why-men-die-younger-than-women-the-guys-are-fragile-thesis
More info on other factors here - but you have to remember these stats are based on historic data so for people currently alive it includes WWII, Vietnam and other wars, it includes a time where men carried out the majority of dangerous and heavy industrial work with poor H&S and many other factors.

None of which are related to the way women are still not treated equally in society.

its just a sampling error and not statistically significant

So why do men die younger?

I'd hazard a guess that in the past men were more likely to smoke & drink. Less social pressure to look thin and attractive leading to more men 'letting themselves go' at an early age and I'd guess typical jobs would have been a contributing factor. Also men are 3 times more likely to commit suicide and more likely to kill themselves by accident in their younger years which both help to bring the average down.

If these are contributing factors (and I'm just guessing here) then a lot of these differences aren't as pronounced as they would have been thirty years ago so it'll be interesting to see how the disparity of lifespan changes over the next 50 years.

None of which are related to the way women are still not treated equally in society

Oh, how so,how are they not related?

Tell me how they are related first....

Tell me how they are related first

I never said they were. You seemed to know specifically that they weren’t and I was interested to hear your views on that.

If you want to have retirement age as say 80% of life expectancy then men in easterhouse would retire at 40, women in sussex at 75

And perhaps that would be the fairest thing to do. Remember equal doesn’t necessarily mean fair and fair doesn’t necessarily mean equal.

In the mean time I take it you have no intention of demonstrating why I was wrong earlier in the thread? 😉

Gonefishing - as you bring it up again. a mix. I wasn't as right as I thought - the perils of taking shortcuts / listening to my missus 😉 the acceleration in the change of retirement date meant the increase to 67 was 3 years notice for some women that their retirement date would be 67 but that was not from 60. cunfusion / attempting to be consise / not being clear

And you were right in that "neanderthal" was not aimed at you

I do think that one area in which there is a legitimate grounds for complaint is the acceleration to 65 that was introduced 2011. I've not looked in detail to the actual impact of this but I would suspect it is a matter of months rather than years of a difference. In hindsight it is clear why this was done as there was clearly a desire to increase the state pension age to 67 but were that done for men and not women then it would rightly have been condemned on grounds of gender equality. I also think should any concession be made to women in the lowering of the pension age (e.g. getting a lower pension in return) must also be made available to the men that are in the same cohort.

tjagain - Member

Gonefishing - as you bring it up again. a mix. I wasn't as right as I thought - the perils of taking shortcuts / listening to my missus

Can you remember this next time you are 100% sure you are in the right and prepared to argue to the death about it 🙄

When changes were made due to sexism in previous years which benefited men, was there an implementation period so that the men were not inconvenienced ?

No.

Sexism was bad and had to stop with immediate effect. Men might have complained that the calendar full of naked women ran a whole year and already had some meetings pencilled into it and it was only April. Irrespective. Sexism was bad and had to stop immediately.

The idea that this was sprung on people at the last moment and they are special and that they therefore can't be held responsible and provisions must be made so it doesn't impact them is pure bunkum.

It was always sexist. The affected women went to work everyday planning to benefit from sexist laws. They were informed in the 90's. I didn't expect them to protest for an immediate end to sexism, but they can't complain when their sexist benefits are ended with far more gentleness and consideration from the government than other perpetrators of sexist injustice got.

Sexism was bad and had to stop with immediate effect.

Indeed. Replace sexism with racism and imagine someone arguing that because they benefited from the racist law it should be gradually phased out rather than changed ASAP.

Can you remember this next time you are 100% sure you are in the right and prepared to argue to the death about it

It is not helpful and makes the thing you object to more likely to happen

Indeed. Replace sexism with racism and imagine someone arguing that because they benefited from the racist law it should be gradually phased out rather than changed ASAP.

I always understood that slave owners were compensated when slavery was abolished back in the day. Pretty sure white South Africans had some sort of arrangement when Aparthied was removed too...

Though FWIW I'm not sure these are comparable anyway, it doesn't take into account the relative positions of the powerful/powerless in society and the myriad of other factors involved (one or two of which have been mentioned within this very thread).

Indeed. Replace sexism with racism and imagine someone arguing that because they benefited from the racist law it should be gradually phased out rather than changed ASAP.

I always understood that slave owners were compensated when slavery was abolished back in the day. Pretty sure white South Africans had some sort of arrangement when Aparthied was removed too... Though FWIW I'm not sure these are comparable anyway,

I would assume so, and yes they're not comparable. In both cases some kind of accomodation was required just to get the change to happen at all. In this case you could change the law today and all that would have to happen would be a few people would have to get a job to earn the equivalent of their pension, which would probably mean 2 days a week on the tills at Tescos.

As you say, not comparable.

If things have been so bad and unequal for women all these years (in this country at least) then why still haven't they mobilised and really done something about it? If we start with the assumption that women are just as able as men, then why haven't half the population organised themselves politically into something they could have voted for to get into power? Or maybe some tried and the rest weren't actually bothered enough to do something about it. Maybe they just didn't want to put in the effort, much easier to demand that those who did, do something about it on their behalf. The tools have been available for a long time now for women as a group to achieve all the things they want. The fact that they haven't done so yet suggests either they arent capable or aren't really that bothered with their current situation.

It is not helpful and makes the thing you object to more likely to happen

It does indeed 8)

The fact that they haven't done so yet suggests either they arent capable or aren't really that bothered with their current situation.

why still haven't they mobilised and really done something about it?

It does seem a bit odd that in a democracy 51pc of the population are being discriminated against by 49pc.

Women take joy in disadvantageing themselves and then complaining about being disadvantaged. (Like emptying the dishwasher and then complaining that they emptied the dishwasher, rather than letting someone else empty the dishwasher.)

Maybe it's that on a national scale?

"What do we want?"
"Inequality we can complain about!"
"When do we want it?"....