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Absolutely not defending the word but as soon as I saw it posted I instantly understood it to be in the context that Cougar intended it and so, it seems, did many others.
I inwardly winced at an appallingly poor choice of phrase but didn’t for a second think it was intended as anything other than a tactic to lampshade another posters prejudice.
as I saw it posted I instantly understood it to be in the context that Cougar intended it and so, it seems, did many others.
Yep me too. Completely understand what he was saying and doing. Should have chosen a different word, partly just because and partly because it actually doesn't make the point he thinks it does. The post is still there.
but didn’t for a second think it was intended as anything other than a tactic to lampshade another posters prejudice.
Nope, me either. It sort of backfired though. And it should be off-limits, even for that. And it is still there.
I am no peon of virtue when it comes to these things and am not an absolutist in just about anything except this. There is no justifiable reason to have used it.
It shouldn't have been used and it should not still be there.
Woah woah woah. Jesus.
OK, first up, I'm Aspie. I'm not using that as an excuse but rather by way of explanation. To my mind, the notion that a jumble of letters in a certain order is inherently always offensive irrespective of context is alien to me. Context is king. If that doesn't fit with established wisdom then I'm sorry, but that's just how my brain is wired. I would never use that word in a pejorative sense, any more than I'd use any other racial / sexual etc slurs.
I almost chose a different word - and now wish I had - but the point I was trying to get across was that I felt that what Alpin was saying was of a similar severity. I did it, evidently foolishly in hindsight, for shock value. Not to "Internet point score" but to drive home how offensive I felt Alpin was being.
Really @cougar? The N* word is one of the most offensive words in the English language regardless of your intentions, to claim ignorance is quite honestly pathetic. My kids have had to move schools, because of attitudes like that. My kids tried to bleach their skin at 5 years old, because of attitudes like that. My kids have wanted to die at the age of 6, because of attitudes like that. But it’s a joke between white people so that’s ok? No harm done in reinforcing your privilege with a wee bit of bantz
I wasn't claiming ignorance, I was trying to clarify exactly what you were referring to as Alpin and I were arguing opposite points. In light of what you've just said here, I don't think you should be directing your ire at him at all.
It was neither a joke nor "bantz" and I assure you that my "attitude" is not what you think. I've championed, hard, for equality for most of my adult life. It's why I made the post I did in the first place. You didn't take that sentence literally did you?
At the risk of playing the David Cameron "a black friend said to me the other day" card: I live in an area with a considerably higher than average Asian (****stani-descendent) population in one of the most deprived wards in the country. They're all lovely, it's the white families where all the scumbags come from. If I had an "attitude" at all it'd be against our lot.
C’mon @cougar get it deleted. I would normal send a DM but yours are turned off because you’re a mod.
Dunno what you're on about here, my messaging works just like anyone else's. Someone messaged me only today.
I'm inclined not to delete it if only because I'll then be accused of covering things up. I apologise unreservedly for using that word if it offended anyone, but I don't see as revisionism helps anything.
If you still feel that way after what I've just said, then in all seriousness please use the Report Post button to kick it up to the rest of the team for review. As per my first paragraph I may not be the best judge here.
Report it to the mods then.
I’m pretty sure that Cougar has said in the past that he won’t retrospectively moderate his own posts that he’s made in the context of an ordinary user because ordinary users aren’t able to that and he’s more than willing to have his content challenged and removed by the other mods just like the rest of us. A stance I’ve always thought fair.
edit: never mind - cross posted
Thank you.
Dunno what you’re on about here, my messaging works just like anyone else’s. Someone messaged me only today.
You are correct. I apologise, I should have checked. Other miss do not have the "private mesaage" button on their profile - at least for me, unless that function has disappeared and reappeared in the various updates.
Defend the word – not possible
Actually, that's also not true as Kanye West, Arrested Development, NWA, Eddie Murphy and, ohh lots and lots of people demonstrate a thousand times a day.
The word is not offensive. The context in which the word is used is offensive. And, it seems now in these heightened political times, the person using the word is now very much part of that context.
It is of course entirely ridiculous though that the colour of your skin should determine the legitimnacy of the words you use without reference to any other context.
The 'was-man' thing raises an interesting point though, I noticed that women's groups sometimes refer to trans-women as 'male'. For example: https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/832849/warning-as-transgender-sex-offender-placed-in-womens-hostel/
“Female offenders are very likely to have experienced male violence and/or abuse, and many suffer from conditions such as PTSD.
“As such, the presence of males in spaces where they are vulnerable could understandably be very distressing for these women, and for many the presence of a male sex offender will prove to be unbearable.”
Thoughts?
I noticed that women’s groups sometimes refer to trans-women as ‘male’.
It's part of the whole 'trans exclusionary radical feminist' movement; there are a few high profile advocates of TERF principles, in particular Germain Greet (reference the 'no platforming' thread we had recently where Germain was prevented from speaking at a university because she was regarded as espousing hate speech through her views on trans issues), and Jenni Murray, from Radio 4's Woman's Hour (she got reprimanded for expressing her opinion on the issue in the media, something that employees of the BBC are not supposed to do).
I think everyone knows my views on (third wave) feminism and this is one of the reasons I reject it having previously embraced second wave feminism (which I still vehemently support). But I also support trans rigts in a very active way. I can see nothing positive about trying to defeminise or else denude the female identity of a trans women (or conversely the masculinity of a trans man).
To do so is motivated more by politics than justice and to my mind smacks of nothing more than point scoring gender political hypocrisy.
We don't think you're a racist Cougar (although lurkers and newbies might). We just think you're a daft **** for posting that.
Stop wriggling and just say sorry, you're making it worse.
Stop wriggling and just say sorry, you’re making it worse.
Er, he already did.
This?
If I’ve offended you then I’m sorry
Doesn't count.
The word is not offensive.
It really is. The meaning of it is not simply a member of an identifiable group but also to assign negative characteriatics and has been since at least the 1830s. I would encourage you to read up on the etiology of it.
Actually, that’s also not true as Kanye West, Arrested Development, NWA, Eddie Murphy and, ohh lots and lots of people demonstrate a thousand times a day.
That they use it doesn't make it not offensive, in fact they use it because it is. Doesn't make it right or excusable
It is of course entirely ridiculous though that the colour of your skin should determine the legitimnacy of the words you use without reference to any other context.
That is an area of debate that I will not engage and if you are wise, you won't either.
@cougar Yes I took it literally, I'm also autistic @perchypanther thanks for using my disability to undermine and ridicule me. I actually came to STW as a newbie to mtb hoping to learn more about it and to connect with others, being autistic makes it quite a challenge and obviously one I can't rise to. No idea why 😉
@cougar I also often wonder how a collection of letters can cause such offence, perhaps because there's not so many which have been used to subjugate me and have such a negative impact on my life, affecting my education, employment, health or housing. (Unless of course you're referring to my gender, hair colour, weight, disability...)
Whilst I understand that you were trying to make a point in defence of another minority, there's no need to throw another one under the bus.
If I need to qualify my anger at that words' use, which I shouldn't as I also object to the privilege my skin tone offers me rather than equal merit, my children are of mixed heritage and that words' definition carries way more weight than your context.
Whilst it certainly adds clout to your argument it detracts from your point and I think the responsible thing to do is to change it or make reference to it like N*.
I admire your willingness to defend your values and you do so with passion but you don't have to lower your standards
There’s a heck of a lot of accusations of racism, sexism and homophobia flying round on STW at the moment.
thanks for using my disability to undermine and ridicule me.
My comment wasn’t aimed at you. It was aimed at Cougar and, to a lesser extent TJ both of whom have previously and repeatedly admitted to having a lack of awareness of some of the finer nuances of context. I’m fairly confident neither of them felt I was undermining or ridiculing them, but you can ask them if you like.
When I do choose to ridicule you, you’ll know all about it and it’ll not be because of your race, sex, gender or any disabilities you might have. It’ll be because of your behaviour.
I’m very much an equal opportunities ridiculer
But if I like boobies and pretty faces am I merely being shallow or far worse?
☹
I noticed that women’s groups sometimes refer to trans-women as ‘male’. For example: https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/832849/warning-as-transgender-sex-offender-placed-in-womens-hostel/
/blockquote>Think that's more an issue with sex offenders than trans gender people. See also Karen White, 52, paedo, rapist, etc.
The word in question has been removed. The posts containing it remain in order for the thread to continue to make sense.
Here's the Singletrack view.
That word is protected and because of its historical use and the way it has been used we consider that there are very few people who are entitled to use it. Its use is only even remotely acceptable when used by the very people it was used against in the context of it being reclaimed by them to reduce its power as a term of abuse.
No one here at Singletrack has the right to use that word under any circumstances and as a result it will never be acceptable to use it on the forum. It's remiss of us that it wasn't included in our swear filter but that is being rectified now.
Do not test that.
We can see all censored words in your posts and you will be moderated if you use it even if the swear filter picks it up.
You may argue that our stance on this is wrong and you may talk of free speech and whether offence is given or taken, but we believe words have power and that one in particular, no matter how it is used, is simply not acceptable on this forum.
.
singletrackmag - you missed a bit
You may argue that our stance on this is wrong and you may talk of free speech ...
Nope, seems entirely reasonable to me.
sirromj
Member
I noticed that women’s groups sometimes refer to trans-women as ‘male’. For example: https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/832849/warning-as-transgender-sex-offender-placed-in-womens-hostel/
Think that’s more an issue with sex offenders than trans gender people. See also Karen White, 52, paedo, rapist, etc.
No, it's not - that was just an example i'd seen recently. Seen the same thing regarding trans-women/girls (not sex offenders) who had become Girl Guides leaders/members for example.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
@singletrackmag Will you be adding “ginger” to that list? Asking for a friend 😉 . I never really suffered abuse when younger, but you should hear some of the comments my son has brought home from his school.
Bit of a low point this thread. Wish I’d not read it to be honest.
That they use it doesn’t make it not offensive, in fact they use it because it is.
Kanye wasn't using the word in an offensive manner:
“Now I ain’t saying she’s a gold-digger, but she ain’t messing with no broke ****.”
There's loads of other examples of him using the owrd in song, and none of them are in an offensive manner.
Same with a lot of other artists.
Maybe you need to get with the program ?
Holy mic-drop!
A meme was born to us today. #notworthy
Kanye wasn’t using the word in an offensive manner:
Never said he was. I said the word is offensive. That is so well established I cannot believe it is even a discussion.
There are a myriad of reasons why a certain group uses the word, including but not limited to: reclaiming it in an attempt to redefine it for themselves, as a way to devote a very particular subset, etc.
Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension. You are most definitely in the wrong program.
It’s programme.
We are not uncouth Americans.
Careful now
A couple of years ago a teenager posted lyrics by US rap artist Snap Dogg on their Instagram account to pay tribute to Frankie Murphy. They were charged with (and found guilty of) "sending a grossly offensive message by means of a public electronic communications network".
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-who-posted-rap-lyrics-14543694
We are not uncouth Americans.
Couth Americans spell it that way too.
How many men do you know, who are attracted to women but ambivalent about breasts?
Well, I’m one, for what it’s worth. None of my girlfriends have ever been, shall we say, spectacularly well-endowed. And it hasn’t mattered a damn. The fact that they were, and are, sweet, lovely people did matter.
It’s what I love them for, because, even after many years, I’m still friends with them all.
Never said he was. I said the word is offensive. That is so well established I cannot believe it is even a discussion.
you said he was using the word because it is offensive, I don't agree. It's offensive to you maybe but it clearly isn't to many black people when used in a non-offensive manner, such as in these lyrics and by many other black artists.
Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension.
funnily enough I was going to say this to you, and then changed it to that cheesy phrase to avoid any possible insult.
We are not uncouth Americans.
it's program as this is popular american music we are discussing 🙂
Do you even know what point you're trying to make?
You can't use the N-word if you're not black. Full stop.
There's disagreement among black people over the desirability of its use by rappers etc, but even Kanye would probably frown on Cougar using it.
Moving back to the subject matter - who saw the BBC documentary the other day on trans kids ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0002tw1/panorama-trans-kids-why-medicine-matters
I won't make comment though 🙂
Do you even know what point you’re trying to make?You can’t use the N-word if you’re not black. Full stop.
didn't mention Cougar - someone just said that ANY use of that word is offensive, which I disagreed with as it is possible for a Black person to use it in a non-offensive manner.
you said he was using the word because it is offensive, I don’t agree.
You are most definitely in the wrong program. Do a bit of research on it and come back when you have.
someone just said that ANY use of that word is offensive,
If you are referring to me, again reading comprehension. I said the word is offensive, full stop. You don't agree with that, as you have said. You really need to address that. I never said anything about use in that context because I do not belong to that community and it is not my debate to have. Not yours, I'm guessing.
Reading some of your posts I think you grasp the use of the shocking or provocative for it's effect.
as it is possible for a Black person to use it in a non-offensive manner.
yep...
I said the word is offensive, full stop.
So you're asserting that it is still offensive when black rappers say it?
I'll be honest, this is something I struggle with (which is probably what got me in hot water earlier). If the word itself - those six pesky letters in a specific order - is inherently always offensive (which is broadly what STW said earlier) then it shouldn't matter who's saying it. If we're instead arguing that it's OK for black people to say it then this becomes demonstrably untrue, it's merely usually offensive and what matters instead is the context in which it's being used.
So then we could argue perhaps that it's always offensive if a white person says it but if a black person says it then it's fine. How about a black person using it as an insult to another black person, is that still OK? Or if a white judge or lawyer is repeating it as evidence in a race-related court case, is that still offensive simply because s/he's white? Isn't that, y'know, a little bit racist?
This is what I was trying - badly, perhaps - to explain what I meant by context earlier. I can't get my head around the concept that a jumble of letters are inherently offensive. It's like with the practice of starring out letters in swear words, whether I type f*** or type that word out in full it's still the same bloomin' word at the end of the day. Everyone knows what it means and the meaning hasn't changed any, why is one any more appropriate than the other? If you call someone a **** then you're calling them a **** regardless of what letters you choose. If we feel the need to asterisk out letters, maybe we'd be better off choosing a different word instead?
So you’re asserting that it is still offensive when black rappers say it?
From TurnerGuy I saw this question as both facile and borderline offensive in itself, but you've mentioned your autism as a factor in not "getting" this so I'll take it at face value.
The N-word is always offensive to some people, whatever their skin colour.
Some black people are OK with using it among themselves and in artistic efforts, but others claim this is offensive and counter-productive.
There's a strong taboo on non-black people using it at all, which I thought was widely understood.
Of course a white judge or lawyer could use it in relation to evidence in court, the word would remain offensive however the intention would not be. The purpose would justify the use, unlike in your case.
I’ve restrained myself in commenting up until now.
The “N” word is offensive. Period. Just because it is used by certain people, whether that is for “art”, music, comedy, etc. Does not make it OK in certain circumstances or situations. They are still using it in an offensive or derogatory manner.
Back to the OP.
I really do feel for you Rachel. This place has become a lesser place recently due to certain number of posters that are either banging the same drum, repeatedly, or those that are sailing close to the wind with their “freedom of speech” defence. There are trolls on here too. Whether it’s the usual suspects with different usernames or new emboldened ones that think the divisive nature of how social media has become in the last few years is now allowing them to spout their toxic bile.
I’ll bet they wouldn’t risk saying these types of things in mixed company or in their local pub for fear of being called out on it, or worse. Behind an anonymous keyboard they think they’re safe.
the practice of starring out letters in swear words, whether I type f or type that word out in full it’s still the same bloomin’ word at the end of the day. Everyone knows what it means and the meaning hasn’t changed any, why is one any more appropriate than the other? If you call someone a * then you’re calling them a **** regardless of what letters you choose. If we feel the need to asterisk out letters, maybe we’d be better off choosing a different word instead?
This is the thing I have difficulty with re the use of that word. Surely if you’re discussing the word for some genuine reason, the writing the word in full is acceptable? To type n* is ridiculous imho.
I appreciate that this is not really the salient point at all, but I was really just trying to unpick the language. Someone asserts that a word is always offensive "full stop," except when it isn't, and that breaks my head. Either it's always offensive and should just be excised from the lexicon globally, or it isn't and there's situations where it's justified / acceptable. In which case, what are those situations?
I'm aware of course that it's a racial slur with a very long and unfortunate history, I might be Aspie but I'm not completely detached from reality! I wasn't really aware that there was a particular backlash against rappers etc using it though (how long has NWA been going now?) so that was helpful.
the word would remain offensive however the intention would not be.
But isn't that exactly what I've been trying to say? The only person I'm aware of who thought I was being intentionally offensive misread my post and later apologised via PM.
So you're saying the difference between a judge using it in a case and me using it to stress how shockingly offensive I think someone is being is, what, that a court case is more important than a forum discussion? That's totally fair enough if so, because of course it is.
(Just to repeat myself for avoidance of any doubt, I hold my hand up that I should've used a different word, there's plenty of others which are less charged and could have made a similar point. It's safest all round just to avoid saying it. I'm genuinely sorry if I did upset or offend anyone, that wasn't my intention at all. I'm not trying to justify it.)
I’ll be honest, this is something I struggle with (which is probably what gETS me in hot water earlier A LOT)
I am with you there. I struggled for a long time and still do to some degree. To me, it was about intent. If I used an offensive word towards someone I like, and said it with the nicest possible intent, it couldn't be offensive. Friends call friends tarts, old queens, ****ers etc all the time no one gets offended.
There are certain words which carry with them as part of their definition by use and custom, ideas which are so unkind, demeaning, dehumanising and disgusting that they cease to be a collection of letters and become a history, experience and reflection of the vilest parts of humanity.
As an example a blasphemy is a blasphemy. Whether you are offended by it in the extreme or are "what's a blasphemy" it is and always will be a blasphemy. So the Wider world has decided the word is offensive. Hopefully it always will be considered as such.
We need to keep the word in existence in order to not forget history. It will need to be used occasionally (as in court, in your example) but it should be with extreme reluctance, after all possibilities have been exhausted, never casually and always with understanding and appreciation of the impact and necessity.
My understanding is that in the communities most affected by it, there is extreme disagreement as to whether it should be used and whether some of the reasons given for its use justify it (you can do you own research on it, it is too vast to cover in a post). I am not part of those communities so can only really speak from a theoretical position
As to your asterisks. Those are used to get around filters. They represent a word which we, as a society, have gradually come to agree are mild irritating, not offensive per say. There was actually a court case around f, whether it was offensive. The court said essentially it isn't anymore, in the way it used to be. However some words have become too offensive to use in general conversations (Crude references to sexual orientation or preference for instance are no longer tolerated in the way f is). The use of asteriks or the swear word they cover is used to convey a not hugely offensive idea or emotion (like when you hit your thumb with a hammer, and, get this, swearing actually make pain more tolerable, whereas a non swear word or nonsense word delivered in the same way doesn't, which goes to show you that words are words with effect, not merely random collections of letters). You could use all asterisks and people would still understand the message within the message. They are a shorthand.
"That" word is a shorthand too. It's a shorthand for things that I find difficult to comprehend a human being thinkin about, or doing to, another human being.