They seem oblivious to just how ridiculous they look, spouting this kind of bollocks, when everyone is watching their continued genocide on the news every night
I thought we'd established on the Lineker thread that no one reports the Gaza genocide?
I thought we'd established on the Lineker thread that no one reports the Gaza genocide?
No, what was suggested on the Lineker thread was that the BBC, specifically, often doesn't give the ongoing genocide in Gaza the coverage it deserves, and that this is likely to be linked to their concern of upsetting the government (as they previously did over the dodgy Iraq dossier)
But well done for having a cheap shot with your sarcasm at those who are concerned that the genocide being carried out by a Western-backed far-right apartheid regime isn't getting sufficient coverage. It follows closely your claim that DrJ has an "obsession" with the issue. Classy
Anyway it looks like the BBC is following the current government's shifting attitude towards the Gaza genocide as it increasingly damages Israel's global image and Western governments which support it
Do we actually think that Trump and Netanyahu care what their respective global images are?
Israel only has to care if the US tells it to. The US doesn't actually need to care.
Israel only has to care if the US tells it to. The US doesn't actually need to care.
Is the real reason this horror has continued so long, sadly.
I can't remember if I posted this previously but..
Back when I was at school there was this horrible little kid called alex who liked to think he was hard as nails but in reality he was about a foot shorter than everyone and a little runt.
The issue was he could get away with it as he had a couple of very hard big brothers who protected him. I remember he once demanded a shot of my bike, when I told him that wasn't going to happen he told me he was going to fight me at the gates after school the next day...he could obviously have fought me there and then, but knew he'd get his head kicked in and needed his brothers there to back him up.
Both brothers ended up in jail and without their back up, within weeks little alex had received multiple beatings from the kids he'd tried to push around
Every time I read about Israel I think of little Alex.
I think it is a convenient excuse in our own complicity in Israel's ongoing genocide to pretend that we can't do anything because of the US. The UK and Germany have been equally as guilty in supporting the genocide as the US.
It struck me yesterday when the withdrawal of trade talks was seen as a positive step, why the **** were we in trade talks with a regime that has been committing genocide and attempting to ethnically cleanse Gaza, in the first place? Israel should have been under the same sanctions as Russia, not doing so and/or supporting not doing so is just rank hypocrisy.
Has Starmer or Lammy actually admitted it is genocide yet, or are they still trying to downplay it as something else?
I edited my last post as i realised that saying 'israel will eventually get whats coming to it' wasnt particularly appropriate given 2 innocent folks have just been shot in washington
My anger isnt directed at the people of israel. Its with the mass murdering genocidal regime which run it and who carry out war crimes on a daily basis.
My anger isnt directed at the people of israel. Its with the mass murdering genocidal regime which run it and who carry out war crimes on a daily basis.
Israel is a democracy and if there is a mass murdering genocidal regime, it's because Israelis have voted for it.
Israel is a democracy and if there is a mass murdering genocidal regime, it's because Israelis have voted for it.
While technically true, that's oversimplifying things somewhat.
It's as broad a statement as painting all Americans as Trump lovers, or all Brits as fervent Brexiters.
Every Israeli I know hates Netenyahu.
Every Israeli I know hates Netenyahu.
Do they hate him more than they hate Palestinians?
From what I've seen, they do not.
Do they hate him more than they hate Palestinians?
From what I've seen, they do not.
Well some do and some don't but that's getting away from my point which was simply that all Israelis should not be lumped together as voting for and supporting the current government.
It's also possible to hate Palestinians in general (which you or I cannot fully understand without having lived there all our lives, there have been many atrocities on both sides over the years and feelings run high to say the least) without wishing for the brutality of what's happening now.
Well some do and some don't but that's getting away from my point which was simply that all Israelis should not be lumped together as voting for and supporting the current government.
Obviously, but to pretend the Netanyahu and his fellow war criminals have no support in Israel is to let the Israeli people off the hook.
It's also possible to hate Palestinians in general without wishing for the brutality of what's happening now.
One leads to the other, wouldn't you say ?
Obviously, but to pretend the Netanyahu and his fellow war criminals have no support in Israel is to let the Israeli people off the hook.
Fortunately, no-one's pretending that.
Fortunately, no-one's pretending that.
So what does this mean?
"My anger isnt directed at the people of israel. Its with the mass murdering genocidal regime which run it and who carry out war crimes on a daily basis. "
So what does this mean?
"My anger isnt directed at the people of israel. Its with the mass murdering genocidal regime which run it and who carry out war crimes on a daily basis. "
I suspect you're quite a clever, and obviously educated individual being a doctor. Not sure what the confusion is there, seems clear and reasonable to me.
So what does this mean?
"My anger isnt directed at the people of israel. Its with the mass murdering genocidal regime which run it and who carry out war crimes on a daily basis. "
It's a short way of saying "I don't blanket hate all Israeli's, I do blanket hate the regime". Fairly obviously some anger would also be directed at the large chunk of the population which does support it and likewise some anger would be reduced for the moderate voices in government, but people don't feel the need to write a full essay detailing every aspect of their views in every post here.
I understand the depth of feeling but but we (all) must keep in mind that it's still a complicated situation. Yes of course on the surface it's simple, Israel is bombing Gaza to bits and must be stopped, but that simplicity does not stay when you get below the surface a bit. Attacking each other's one-sentence statements with a whiff of wilful misunderstanding helps no one.
Yes of course on the surface it's simple, Israel is bombing Gaza to bits and must be stopped, but that simplicity does not stay when you get below the surface a bit.
Yes, it really does. There is no excuse or context that makes this genocide understandable or acceptable. It is that simple.
Yes, it really does. There is no excuse or context that makes this genocide understandable or acceptable. It is that simple.
Fortunately, no-one in here is suggesting otherwise, I don't think.
I bet a large section of Isrealis, its diaspora and sympathisers who are not fans of Netenyahu are still happy with Netenyahu's regime's actions in Gaza.
Yes, it really does. There is no excuse or context that makes this genocide understandable or acceptable. It is that simple.
Fortunately, no-one in here is suggesting otherwise, I don't think.
So what does it mean that below the surface it's not as simple as stopping the bombing?
If you want to stop the genocide it really is as simply as that.
Genocide is never justifiable under any circumstances.
It's a short way of saying "I don't blanket hate all Israeli's, I do blanket hate the regime"
Exactly .
No different than saying I hate the US government but I certainly don't dislike all Americans
Obviously there are many in Israel who support what they are doing, and I'm not going to be a fan of them. But you can't tar the entire population of a country with the same brush due to the actions of their government.
I didn't think that would need clarification tbh
Yes, it really does. There is no excuse or context that makes this genocide understandable or acceptable. It is that simple.
Ah but again, that's not what I'm saying. I really don't see how you can be misinterpreting my words to mean that I think that "this genocide understandable or acceptable" on any level.
I'll try and be clearer.
1) This genocide is not understandable or acceptable on any level.
2) It's not a simple situation.
When it comes to sweeping statements regarding the views of a country's population, that needs to take into account history, culture, politics, religion, broader world/regional influences, media influence, etc etc etc... Please also note that this whole sub-discussion was about Israeli views and opinions, not actions, which are admittedly more simply black and white.
Like I said before, "It's also possible to hate Palestinians in general without wishing for the brutality of what's happening now."
One leads to the other, wouldn't you say ?
No, not really.
Eventually maybe, taken to extremes.
[Edit for emphasis]
Genocide is never justifiable under any circumstances.
Fortunately, no-one in here is trying to justify it.
I bet a large section of Isrealis, its diaspora and sympathisers who are not fans of Netenyahu are still happy with Netenyahu's regime's actions in Gaza.
I'll give you that. I'll bet there's also some who don't think he's going far enough.
However I'll also bet you can find any number of people from any country with all sorts of extreme views.
Obviously there are many in Israel who support what they are doing, and I'm not going to be a fan of them. But you can't tar the entire population of a country with the same brush due to the actions of their government.
The point is that you can't neatly separate "the people of Israel" from the genocidal regime, since one chose the other - democracy - rule of the people. No doubt lots of individual Israelis don't like Netanyahu, or what their country has become. But he has been PM for twenty years. The electorate ("the people") can hardly claim ignorance off what they voted for.
A majority of the Israeli public is opposed to allowing humanitarian aid into the besieged Gaza Strip, a survey carried out by Israel’s Channel 13 has found.
Some 53 per cent of respondents said they believe Israel should not permit aid to enter Gaza, while only 34 per cent supported allowing lifesaving food, medicines and water to enter the enclave.
The survey sample, which included Palestinian citizens of Israel, suggests that opposition to humanitarian aid among Jewish Israelis may be even higher.
Deleted, missed further posts
Not really much input , just jotting in again to see that still nothing is being done about the genocide.
The point is that you can't neatly separate "the people of Israel" from the genocidal regime, since one chose the other - democracy -
I'm sure the example has been given many times before but 52% of brits voted for brexit. and whilst im in no way comparing mass genocide to the harms brexit has done, I think you can fairly easily separate those who voted for it from those who didn't
Israel hasn't "voted" for a genocide, it is deeply involved in carrying one out. This simply wouldn't be logistically possible without very substantial support from Israeli society.
There is a widespread belief within Israeli society that every single person in Gaza is a legitimate target.
The myth of Gaza’s ‘innocent’ majority of majority
https://www.jns.org/the-myth-of-gazas-innocent-majority/
"It’s time to dispel the myth that Gaza is filled with innocent civilians."
Withdrawal from the EU could have logistically occured even if only 1% of the UK population had supported it, the systematic destruction of Gaza and the mass killings by the IDF could not occur without substantial support from the Israeli people.
There is no comparison between people voting in a referendum and a country which has engaged in an intense "war" with its neighbour.
So just to be clear are you saying everyone in Israel supports what their government is doing?
Withdrawal from the EU could have logistically occured even if only 1% of the UK population had supported it, the systematic destruction of Gaza and the mass killings by the IDF could not occur without substantial support from the Israeli people.
Technically yes. Just like technically the Israeli government could drop a nuke on gaza tomorrow and be done with things..
Not going to happen though is it..
So just to be clear are you saying everyone in Israel supports what their government is doing?
I suspect that what he's saying is ...
the systematic destruction of Gaza and the mass killings by the IDF could not occur without substantial support from the Israeli people.
Just a hunch.
The British people voted for Brexit. Not every individual British person. Likewise, the Israeli people voted for Netanyahu. Over and over and over again. And even now a majority of them (apparently) are in favour of starving children. Think about that. In a room of Israelis, more than half support starving children. Mind. Blown.
So just to be clear are you saying everyone in Israel supports what their government is doing?
No why would I say that? I don't think there is anyone who has emphasised more than me on this thread just divided Israeli society is.
If you saw the Louis Theroux programme about settler violence in the West Bank recently you will have seen Israeli Jews standing shoulder to shoulder with Palestinians as they faced violence and intimidation from settlers and the IDF.
The settler movement does enjoy massive support within Israeli society though, indeed they are part of the coalition government which is overseeing the genocide in Gaza.
So just to be clear are you saying everyone in Israel supports what their government is doing?
Lindsey Hilsum on C4 news tonight after reporting on the strike that killed 9 members of one doctors family (a clearly targeted strike using f15/16's for which we supply parts/equipment - they are butchers, genoicidal butchers...thats about the most polite way I could express my thoughts, I have others I'd best keep to myself) reiterated the fact that israeli television does not show what is happening on the ground in Gaza and very few Israelis are actively seeking information as to what is going on..
I find that to be rather telling of an indifference and akin to what went on with the German population in the 1940's, they're are a number of activists who attempt to speak out/protest but the reporting of their demos and speeches is not broadcast nor publicised widely
deleted double post
This Israeli politician literally says whilst he is being filmed these words : "The children are our enemies”
https://twitter.com/adamemedia/status/1925572482892751231/
Israeli society is so desensitised about the killing of Palestinian men, women, and children, and has dehumanised them to such an extent, that I suspect this Israeli politician is probably totally unaware of how disgusting his comments will appear to many normal people outside Israel.
And this Israeli is willing to be filmed saying :
"Destroy their offspring to prevent them from creating more offsprings"-
https://twitter.com/I_amMukhtar/status/1925888004691775970
4.6 million views since yesterday. The global PR damage to Israel is incalculable but this woman won't be aware of that because killing Palestinians is probably a perfectly natural thing to do in her eyes. In fact I am sure she believes that she is helping the zionist cause by explaining why Palestinian babies need to be killed.
Here is proof that not all Israelis would support every man, woman, and child, in Gaza being killed by the IDF, only 47% would.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/majority-israelis-support-expulsion-palestinians-gaza-poll
The survey, conducted in March and published by Haaretz newspaper on Thursday, found that 82 percent of Israeli Jews support the forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.
Meanwhile, 47 percent of the Jews answered yes to the question: "Do you support the claim that the [Israeli army] in conquering an enemy city, should act in a manner similar to the way the Israelites did when they conquered Jericho under the leadership of Joshua, ie to kill all its inhabitants?"
The reference is to the biblical story of the conquest of Jericho when Joshua's army was said to have killed every man, woman and child after capturing the city.
No why would I say that? I don't think there is anyone who has emphasised more than me on this thread just divided Israeli society is.
So you agree with me then that's it's wrong to tar all Israelis with the same brush?
Ill never argue against the notion that anyone who supports the killing in gaza is scum. But that's not every Israeli, even if many do.
So hard to listen to, how this Dr holds it together i do not know, yet she still has the voice to ask the BBC to release the BBC commissioned documentary “Medics under Fire” that is withheld
https://twitter.com/PulaRJS/status/1926350733969969507
So you agree with me then that's it's wrong to tar all Israelis with the same brush?
Well yes of course, one of the Israelis which I have probably quoted the most on this thread is Ilan Pappe who supports Palestine as much as I do.
But it is perfectly legitimate to criticise Israel and Israeli society as a single entity. Israel claims to be at "war" with Occupied Palestine, it is completely reasonable and accepted to describe a country's behaviour when it is at war as if it is a single entity.
For example it is perfectly acceptable to say that "Germany invaded Poland in 1939", no one says "some Germans invaded Poland in 1939" to emphasise that not all Germans necessarily supported the illegal act of aggression.
From basement films and an update https://twitter.com/basement_films/status/1926186851599048968?s=46&t=qvPR6lBfBXtAWZ-6beFWyA
FFS at long last, now get on with it and apply full sanctions against the genocidal far-right regime. If you can't do the obvious thing and assemble a multinational peacekeeping force to stop the genocide.
Spanish FM proposes international sanctions on Israel to stop war in Gaza
Madrid will host 20 countries as well as international organizations on Sunday with the aim of “stopping this war, which no longer has any goal,”
Indeed no goal beyond killing Palestinians and keeping Netanyahu and his neo-fascist coalition partners in power.
Humanitarian aid must enter Gaza “massively, unimpeded, neutrally, so that it is not Israel who decides who can eat and who cannot"
For almost 60 years Israel has been deciding what the people of Gaza can and cannot have. It is time to end the world's last remaining colonial power.
FFS at long last
Indeed, but I'm afraid it won't achieve what is needed. It will expose those governments who are not prepared to take what is the only action that can pressure the Israeli regime though, and I'm not convinced our government will come out on the right side of history
For almost 60 years Israel has been deciding what the people of Gaza can and cannot have. It is time to end the world's last remaining colonial power.
With my sepia tinted sunglasses on I'd like to consider that is possible, along with removing every single settler (by force if necessary) but I doubt that will happen in my lifetime.
Gawd knows what is going to transpire from this.......
