MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
A week later the IDF declares Hamas “defeated”.
ISW assessment of the current capability of Hamas broadly agrees that it is no longer able to effectively mount operations in Khan Younis and Rafah.
Anyway, it’s perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers
Even if there was a +/- 30% error on 1,700 Israeli dead vs 42,000 Palestinian dead those figures still paint the same picture.
"Israel has likely defeated Hamas in Khan Younis and is in the process of doing so in Rafah"
Doesn't sound like "mission accomplished" to me. But if the IDF chief is indeed telling the truth, and a year on Hamas really has been defeated, then the Israeli government has ran out of excuses for slaughtering men, women, and children, in Gaza, and they need to get out.
Plus of course it means that Benjamin Netanyahu was lying to the world less than 2 weeks ago when at the UN he declared that the killing wouldn't stop until Hamas was defeated.
The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present. Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.
Been pondering this. The problem for me is that it ignores motive, as though 7th October was a bolt from a blue sky.
Despite Israel's protestations the United Nations considered Gaza to be under illegal Israeli occupation prior to October 7 2023,.
Violent resistance to illegal foreign occupation is perfectly legitimate and lawful under international law.
Obviously war crimes by any side is not.
The reality is noting is going to change for another month. The problem is that the Jewish vote is quite influential in a number of swing states that could determine the outcome of the US presidential election. As a result no politician is going to do anything that may encourage voters to move away from them. It’s simply not going to happen as the priority is to win the election. Israel knows this and is using this time to do as it wants knowing the USA is impotent until the polls close and the result known.
Sky news report on the slaughter of Hind Rajab and the members of her family, along with the killing of the emergency workers sent to rescue her.
According to an Israeli MP from the "liberal" centrist party Yesh Atid that, quote, "the children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves.”
When you add to that the fact the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refers to Palestinians as, quote, "human animals", and countless Israeli politicians publicly claim that there are no 'innocents' in Gaza, then the dehumanisation of Palestinians is complete and killing a five year old little girl is seen as justifiable.
^^^
The use of this particular Playbook by Israel is disgusting and ironic in equal measure.
This is short clip is several months old but it is really worth watching imo as Rachel Shabi, an Israeli born Jewish reporter, is so passionate in the face of absurd zionist claims.
I think due to the horrific atrocities carried out by israel, they are now probably the most hated country on Earth.
The facts behind Gordon Brown's article in yesterday's Guardian are utterly heartbreaking:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/08/hearts-breaking-children-gaza-tomorrow-peace
Eighty-five percent of parents report that their children have gone at least one whole day without food, and now 346,000 children under five need supplementary food and nutrients, with at least 50,000 suffering from acute malnutrition.
More than 40% of families in Gaza have been caring for children who are not their own. In all, 20,000 children have been orphaned, are unaccompanied or are separated from their families. Six out of 10 children in some camps have developed stammering and other communication-related issues.
Satellite images captured by the Global Education Cluster in July revealed that 93% of schools have sustained some level of damage, and 85% will need to be reconstructed.
In some ways the children killed by the IDF are the lucky ones.
When you add to that the fact the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refers to Palestinians as, quote, “human animals”
He's a repulsive man but he didn't say that, as the article you link to makes clear. If you're going to link to something off-site instead of making a reasoned argument, at least read it first.
If you’re going to link to something off-site instead of making a reasoned argument, at least read it first.
And if you are going to correct me and point out that it wasn't actually Benjamin Netanyahu who made the "human animals" comment how about making it clear who did say it?
It is not as if the comment wasn't made by an Israeli political and that it doesn't feed into the narrative that dehumanises Palestinians and considers them less than human. Or did you want to pretend that the comment was never made?
Yes it was his Defence Minister and fellow Likud party member Yoav Gallant who made the "human animals" quote. Netanyahu himself appears in South Africa’s lawsuit for mentioning, in more than one speech, Amalek, the enemy nation of the Israelites in the Bible and which God asked King Saul to exterminate.
then the dehumanisation of Palestinians is complete and killing a five year old little girl is seen as justifiable.
I would imagine that referring to Jews as sons and uncles of monkeys and pigs, and the [Arabic] rhyme "Palestine is our land and Jews are our dogs" is what enabled some of them to justify the 7th Oct attack. There is equally disgusting racist and dehumanising discourse from all.
Netanyahu himself appears in South Africa’s lawsuit for mentioning, in more than one speech, Amalek, the enemy nation of the Israelites in the Bible and which God asked King Saul to exterminate.
...But of course the connection between Palestinians and Amalek is nothing at all, apart from being convenient for (the non-religious) Netanyahu to play the religious aspect.
If anything, biblically speaking the Palestinians would have descended from Ishmael (Abraham's son, generally viewed as the father of the Arab people) and not Amalek. There is no religious commandment of any sort re. Ishmael, and anyway the commandment to (physically) wipe out Amalek does not apply nowadays.
(A little further reading for anyone interested here or here)
There is equally disgusting racist and dehumanising discourse from all.
Whatabout not having a competition to find the most disgusting racist comment and focusing on what the Israeli prime minister and his cabinet ministers have actually said?
Or are we saying that the dehumanising racist language of the far-right Israeli government is okay because they too have been the target of racism from unknown parties?
No I didn't think so.
(A little further reading for anyone interested here or here)
I am sure that the International Court of Justice will read all the available information on the comments made by Benjamin Netanyahu before passing judgement.
You have to assume that South African's lawyers are confident that Netanyahu has a case to answer with regards to the language that he has used, hence their direct reference to it.
Because all the community leaders engaged in this conflict have used the language of hate to make it easier for all their supporters to dehumanise and 'other' each other, until they've reached this maximalist position.
Or are we saying
Is this you putting word into people's mouth again? I though you ignored posts you don't agree with, it's what you tell everyone else to do after all.
Is this you putting word into people’s mouth again?
I asked the question and then answered it myself....."No I didn’t think so".
We are not saying that the dehumanising racist language of the far-right Israeli government is okay because they too have been the target of racism from unknown parties, so why even mention it ?
Where are the words you feel are being but into your mouth?
The senseless slaughter of Palestinian children is disgusting - read Gordon Brown's article in yesterday's Guardian, so is the vile language of far-right Israeli politicians.
But some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead. ffs
I am sure that the International Court of Justice will read all the available information on the comments made by Benjamin Netanyahu before passing judgement.
You have to assume that South African’s lawyers are confident that Netanyahu has a case to answer with regards to the language that he has used, hence their direct reference to it.
I don't quite understand what you mean to say by this, have you misunderstood me as defending Netanyahu?
All I was saying was that from the Jewish point of view, Amalek has nothing to do with this. Netanyahu is for sure making genocidal comments, but if he's saying there's some sort of religious motivation to wipe out Palestinians, there isn't. He's either clueless or making it up for his own ends.
The links were purely provided in case someone was interested (in the commandment of destroying Amalek and why it doesn't apply in our times) and were not directly related to anything in Gaza.
have you misunderstood me as defending Netanyahu?
No, not at all, there is no one on stw who is prepared to defend Netanyahu - that has been obvious for quite a while. Which is hardly surprising when you consider what is happening in Gaza under his premiership.
He is however surprisingly popular in Israel:
Netanyahu is once again the most popular politician in Israel
But some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead. ffs
It's not your thread to dictate who says what about anything. It's not distracting or derailing the thread from the universal condemnation of Netanyahu's disgusting actions to speak or discuss more widely about the fact that language over the years from both communities leaderships have undoubtedly contributed to the situation that everyone in the region finds themselves in now.
the situation that everyone in the region finds themselves in now.
The situation in which 50,000 Palestinians find themselves dead, and 50,000 Israelis don't, you mean ?
It’s not your thread to dictate who says what about anything.
What the **** are you on about? I am expressing an opinion - deal with it.
Tens of thousands of children have been slaughtered, countless more have had life-changing injuries and have become orphans, and instead of focusing on the horrors of that, and the fact that it is still going on, some people want to engage in whataboutry and petty point scoring.
You can say whatever you damn well like, but reading Gordon Brown's article about the tragic plight of Palestinian children, at the hands of a far-right racist government led by a brutal psychopath, without the "yeah, but what about blah blah blah" is also an option.
I highlighted the choice made : some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead.
An interesting comment here by an Israeli historian whose family were deeply affected by the alleged actions of Mossad.
Avi Shlaim says he has 'proof of Zionist involvement' in 1950s attack on Iraqi Jews
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/avi-shlaim-proof-israel-zionist-involvement-iraq-jews-attacks
Shlaim unveils in his book "undeniable proof of Zionist involvement in the terrorist attacks" which prompted a mass exodus of Jews from Iraq between 1950 and 1951.
Shocking but perhaps it shouldn't come as a great suprise from a project which brought us the "Hannibal Directive".
This is just dismal from you, @ernielynch. It's bollocks from any angle, and even more so on the opaquely-funded Middle East Eye.
Jews had already suffered persecution and maltreatment since the 30s, including earlier bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more before the bombings Avi Shlaim talks about took place. More than half the Jewish population of Iraq had already either left or registered to emigrate, so these bombings were rather late, to say the least, if they were in an Israeli inside job.
The Jewish part of my family are from Iraq, so I know the history and stories. Even if Shlaim is right, and there's very little evidence of this, those bombings are a drop in the ocean of what caused Iraqi Jews to flee.
EDIT: I realise the above was just another deflection, perhaps because you'd had a strop at nickc in the post before, but I didn't want to let that nonsense go unchallenged.
I didn’t want to let that nonsense go unchallenged.
You do realise that you are challenging an Israeli historian who is Jewish Iraqi, not me, don't you? I am sure that Avi Shlaim is aware of bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more.
This is just dismal from you
What is..... posting a link to an article by an Israeli historian? Why, he is the wrong sort of Jew? I didn't write the article.
My only comment was that it sounds shocking, but then as I pointed out the Hannibal Directive is also shocking so it shouldn't come as a great surprise.
Any comment about the Hannibal Directive btw? Or is any discussion connected to the behaviour of Israel which you don't approve of a "deflection".
I find your posts pretty "dismissal" too btw, like other zionist supporters you don't want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.
@benos and everyone else.
Give up.
You'll have a more productive and I dare say more enjoyable evening repeatedly slamming your dick in a drawer than engaging with him.
He's a master at what he does and if theres one thing I've learned in life it's that you will never beat a master baiter.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Channel 4 program today about the terror attacks of 7 October.
Thats basically israeli propaganda, because what we'll never have broadcast is the pictures and films of the aftermath of israeli missile strikes on family homes.
A few of those showing Palestinian families blown apart or small children having limbs amputated without anesthetic and support for israel would curl up and die.
what we’ll never have broadcast is the pictures and films of the aftermath of israeli missile strikes on family homes
I’m guessing you don’t watch Channel4 news much?
So yesterday the Guardian published an article by former Labour leader Gordon Brown in which he claims that nearly one million children in Gaza have been displaced, and that there is one toilet per 850 people.
Gordon Brown goes on to claim that 85% of parents report that their children have gone at least one whole day without food and that at least 50,000 children are suffering from acute malnutrition.
He then goes on to say that more than 4O% of families in Gaza have been caring for children who are not their own. 20,000 children have been orphaned. And 60% of children in some camps have developed stammering and other communication issues.
I post a link to Gordon Brown's article and what he suggests should be done but those who otherwise have so much to say suddenly have nothing to say. Other than accuse me of "deflection"........ the thread is about Gaza, the clue is in the title that Mark gave it.
And then squirrelking turns up and talks about "repeatedly slamming your dick in a drawer", and makes an oh so funny "master baiter" comment, that's his contribution. Not stw at its finest.
An Israeli Attack on Iran's Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb
An interesting article well worth reading imo, I certainly had no idea about claims such as this:
Iran is still hesitating – for political and possibly also for religious reasons – about producing a bomb and becoming a nuclear power for all intents and purposes. Iran is not a nuclear state because it hasn't yet firmly decided whether it's in its interest to become one. If it was determined to become a full nuclear state, it would have reached this goal long ago, yet it still prefers to remain a nuclear threshold state.
Edit: And particularly this :
Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.
Days?
I find your posts pretty “dismissal” too btw, like other zionist supporters you don’t want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.
That's all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down
It doesn't promote useful discussion toward the very thing that everyone here wants; stopping bloodshed and a satisfactory peace for all in the region
Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.
Iran was close to "breakout time" in April so that isn't surprising. Iran's programme accelerated after the 2018 decision by President Trump to break a 2015 agreement to limit Iran's nuclear programme in exchange for lifting sanctions.
Constantly focusing on a single issue, Gaza, ignores the entire region and bemoaning perceived inaction by the west to limit Israel increases the likelihood of a second Trump Presidency.
Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?
I find your posts pretty “dismissal” too btw, like other zionist supporters you don’t want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.
No one is wanting to remove focus from Israeli war crimes here. It's by far the biggest and worst part of this whole situation at the moment.
This however does not mean it's the only focus, nor that discussing other things reduces the importance of this aspect.
When you post something highlighting (for example) a horrific war crime, there's not much anything constructive anyone can post except 10 posts of agreement along the lines of "oh dear how terrible". I think you can take silence as agreement much of the time. On the other hand when you post something contentious, then you get people picking up on that and discussing it. It may lead to a little perceived bias if you look at the posts here sometimes but it is NOT bias, unless you consider any discussion of anything other than Israeli war crimes to be supporting Zionism (as hinted by your "like other zionist supporters" dig)
("You" above meaning anyone, not "you" specifically. Just mostly 😉 )
An Israeli Attack on Iran’s Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb (etc)
Interesting. I thought that the main thing holding Iran back (time-wise) was the enrichment of uranium, which has to be done to a much higher percentage for weapons than for power, and takes a long time.
If it's true that they could have a bomb ready within weeks/days then that implies they already have enough purified uranium for this already made and waiting.
That’s all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down
I want to focus on the ongoing slaughter of innocent people. I'm not going to apologise for that. Differences of opinion around peripheral topics can be interesting and informative but they do tend to normalise the atrocities we are witness to, so they're hard to address appropriately.
It doesn’t promote useful discussion toward the very thing that everyone here wants; stopping bloodshed and a satisfactory peace for all in the region
The bloodshed can stop when the people doing the killing stop. It's that simple.
Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?
For a Palestinian, what difference would it make?
That’s all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down
You do realise that it you who is constantly challenging me and DrJ, not the other way round, don't you? Everything you post on this thread appears to be a challenge, nothing seems to be anything other than a reaction.
I constantly post stuff which is totally unconnected to any previous comments by anyone, for example the Gordon Brown article about Gaza in the Guardian, how about commenting on that? It is clear that Gordon Brown made an effort and did a lot of research for that article, and it's about "Gaza", the subject matter of this thread.
I agree that there is an attempt to shut down the debate but it clearly isn't me and DrJ who are responsible for that.
Constantly focusing on a single issue, Gaza
Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as "deflection" by Israel's supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.
Here's that article again btw
Today, our hearts are breaking for the children of Gaza. Tomorrow, we must give them peace | Gordon Brown https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/08/hearts-breaking-children-gaza-tomorrow-peace?CMP=share_btn_url
Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as “deflection” by Israel’s supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.
Should we open a new thread to discuss Lebanon, Iran, Yemen and the whole rest of the current Middle East situation apart from Gaza? It makes sense to keep it all here IMO.
Also, please stop painting anyone who disagrees as Israel/Zionist supporters.
I constantly post stuff which is totally unconnected to any previous comments by anyone, for example the Gordon Brown article about Gaza in the Guardian, how about commenting on that?
I have read the article, it's a horrendous situation and I fully agree it needs to be sorted out properly and will have effects for a long time.
My wife works as a therapist, a lot of that is dealing with childhood trauma. Even seemingly small events can affect people in later life to quite a large degree. I also have 5 young children of my own and find it hard to even think about some of the things that are happening over there.
Although let's not also forget that child casualties would quite a bit smaller if Hamas et al would stop using children as human shields, child soldiers and tunnel workers. Hamas themselves are on the UN's list for violating children's rights (as are Israel, of course).
But Israel are worser, so let's ignore this.
how about commenting on that?
But this is you still trying to dominate and direct the conversation. You'll either ignore or accuse others of diverting the thread away from the very specific things that you want to discuss if they dare say things or link to articles that don't align with your own views and opinions. Then insist that we all comment on the things that you do bring to the discussion and complain and accuse everyone of being a Zionist shill if we don't.
Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.
Days?
It is just another way of justifying a preemptive strike. i.e. prepare the public opinion to be on their side before they strike, then after the strike they would announce their success in eliminating the threats and the world will be in "peace" again.
From what we’ve seen thus far, a nuclear armed israel is the real danger.
It is a real danger and they will use it like USA (atomic) in the past. It is also another way of trying to establish themselves as the regional hegemon mimicking the US concept of "Monroe Doctrine" , where they exert their dominance . They need to eliminate all potential "threats" from the region so will arm themselves heavily.
Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?
Different side of the same coin.
Jews had already suffered persecution and maltreatment since the 30s, including earlier bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more before the bombings Avi Shlaim talks about took place.
I once asked my Jewish colleague why they have been persecuted throughout history, he never gave me an answer. I was curious because there must be something that triggered the persecution.
But this is you still trying to dominate and direct the conversation. You’ll either ignore or accuse others of diverting the thread away from the very specific things that you want to discuss if they dare say things or link to articles that don’t align with your own views and opinions. Then insist that we all comment on the things that you do bring to the discussion and complain and accuse everyone of being a Zionist shill if we don’t.
What on earth has that ^^ got to do with Gaza? And you are accusing me of diverting the thread, seriously?
Some random thoughts floating around my brain that may or may not make sense:
- If Iran are days away from making a bomb, why don't they just make it but keep it secret? It's not like they have to declare "we are now a nuclear nation"
- "From what we’ve seen thus far, a nuclear armed israel is the real danger." Well they've had it for the last 50-60 years and not nuked anyone yet.
- If Israel had not been suspected of having nuclear weapons, would it still exist now or would its neighbours have attacked in force (again) years ago?
- I wonder what the plausible deniability would be for Israel to nuke Iran's nuclear sites and say "wow, what a big explosion our conventional bomb caused, must've been their bombs going up, tut tut"
Also, please stop painting anyone who disagrees as Israel/Zionist supporters.
Of course not. Me and DrJ have strongly disagreed on this thread but it would be daft to accuse him of being an Israel/zionist supporter.
I call people who support Israel and zionism Israel/zionist supporters, people like yourself. I am not sure what the purpose of you suggesting that you don't support Israel and zionism is, you obviously do. Even if you don't support everything about the current government.
Anyway let's stick to the issue of Palestine.
"I would never do that", then immediately does that.
If Iran are days away from making a bomb, why don’t they just make it but keep it secret? It’s not like they have to declare “we are now a nuclear nation”
I think it would require detonating a nuclear device which can't really be kept secret.
Also all countries which possess nuclear weapons (with the exception of Israel) advertise that fact very loudly, because that is precisely how the deterrent aspect of nuclear weapons works, it has zero deterrent value if your potential enemies don't know you have it.
Well they’ve had it for the last 50-60 years and not nuked anyone yet.
Not the time to use it yet. Eventually, everyone will use theirs and that's where the fireworks start. (hypnotic voice in the background ... "press the button all of you")
If Israel had not been suspected of having nuclear weapons, would it still exist now or would its neighbours have attacked in force (again) years ago?
Yes, even without nuke Israel would still exist with the help of USA, UK and other EU nations. C'mon Israel as a state come into being without nuke (but their support has atomic in those days). Even if Iran or their neighbours have nuke they would not use it because of the Muslim population and the respect for the second holy land. Now that the population is "not mixed" anymore the use of nuke will be highly plausible in future.
I wonder what the plausible deniability would be for Israel to nuke Iran’s nuclear sites and say “wow, what a big explosion our conventional bomb caused, must’ve been their bombs going up, tut tut”
It is always good to show "evidence" of the threats as a way to redirect public opinion that the enemy had a stockpile ready to launch.
why don’t they just make it but keep it secret?
It isn't known that they haven't, and it doesn't matter anyway, most analysis says that they can do it pretty rapidly, and they have an existing ballistic missile capability to deliver it. I don't think the change from threatening to become to actually being a nuclear armed state would make that much difference diplomatically.
Well they’ve had it for the last 50-60 years and not nuked anyone yet.
Is largely the point of these weapons
would its neighbours have attacked in force (again) years ago?
I would suggest that diplomatic efforts to normalise relationships regionally is probably more effective than the threat of destruction. The 7th Oct attack was largely an effort by Iran to put a stop to Israel and S.A. from developing a closer relationship after all, and wasn't made in a vacuum that Israel has these sorts of weapons.
I wonder what the plausible deniability would be for Israel to nuke Iran’s nuclear sites
I don't think there's any sort of deliverable weapon short of nuclear that could destroy Iran's under-mountain sites. Given how effective Mossad has been in the past infiltrating Iran, it's more likely that any attack mounted to disrupt their nuclear capability will be espionage based.
Although let’s not also forget that child casualties would quite a bit smaller if Hamas et al would stop using children as human shields, child soldiers and tunnel workers
Well there you go again. You want space to discuss topics other than Israeli war crimes, but when presented with, in this case, an article about child victims of Israel's obliteration of Gaza, you pop up with the claim that in fact it's the Palestinians' fault that Israel drops bombs on their childrens' heads.
If there is one thing that the last year has taught us is that Hamas using children as human shields would be totally ineffective, the IDF has no respect for the lives of Palestinian children.
I fact there is documented evidence that the IDF use Palestinian children themselves as human shields.
because that is precisely how the deterrent aspect of nuclear weapons works, it has zero deterrent value if your potential enemies don’t know you have it.
Strategic Ambiguity is also a good defence policy, which is the policy that Israel employs
14:34
UN accuses Israel of trying to 'destroy' Gaza healthcare
https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/1010/1474643-middle-east-blog/
Investigators from the United Nations have said Israel is deliberately targeting health facilities and killing and torturing medical personnel in Gaza, accusing the country of "crimes against humanity".
"Israel has perpetrated a concerted policy to destroy Gaza's healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza," the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry said in a statement this afternoon.
Well there you go again. You want space to discuss topics other than Israeli war crimes, but when presented with, in this case, an article about child victims of Israel’s obliteration of Gaza, you pop up with the claim that in fact it’s the Palestinians’ fault that Israel drops bombs on their childrens’ heads.
I absolutely did not.
...But it is partly their fault. And by the way, Hamas' fault, not the Palestinians. They're different.
Hamas deliberately surround themselves with children when shooting at Israel. This is bad. Israel shoot back, with bombs. This is badder. Should we ignore Hamas?
Yes, this is Israel causing what's happening now. It does not make me an Israel supporter to say Hamas has something to do with it as well.
If there is one thing that the last year has taught us is that Hamas using children as human shields would be totally ineffective, the IDF has no respect for the lives of Palestinian children.
I fact there is documented evidence that the IDF use Palestinian children themselves as human shields.
I agree with everything there. It doesn't change anything I said. Are you implying there's no documentary evidence of Hamas using human shields?
Edit:
UN accuses Israel of trying to ‘destroy’ Gaza healthcare
And of course there's absolutely no excuse for this.
I want to focus on the ongoing slaughter of innocent people. I’m not going to apologise for that.
I wouldn't expect anyone to feel that they have to apologise for that.
Differences of opinion around peripheral topics can be interesting and informative but they do tend to normalise the atrocities we are witness to, so they’re hard to address appropriately.
It's a multi-faceted, inter-connected, multi-polar (and other buzzwords) world. These aren't only peripheral topics but intertwined and relevant to peace
For a Palestinian, what difference would it make?
An example. In 2018 President Trump moved the US Embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem. The State of Israel and the State of Palestine both claim Jerusalem as their capital, neither claim is widely recognised, but the move by Trump lends weight to Israel's claim, some would consider that significant.
Most immediately, we need to step up our efforts for a ceasefire and intensify the pressure for the release of hostages. (Gordon Brown)
Yes, I read the Gordon Brown article. A truly awful situation, but stunningly obvious and not immediately relevant writing (until we have peace in the middle east). The experience of the UN in war zones around the globe means that we already have that sort of expertise. What is there to comment on until we have peace?
You do realise that it you who is constantly challenging me and DrJ, not the other way round, don’t you?
If I'm challenging you then it's to widen the debate into the world where the solution lies. The solution isn't solely in Gaza, in Israel or solely anywhere else
Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as “deflection” by Israel’s supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.
It's a multi-faceted, inter-connected, multi-polar (and other buzzwords) world.You can't discuss Gaza in isolation, "ernielynch An Israeli Attack on Iran’s Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb" 14 hours ago.
An example. In 2018 President Trump moved the US Embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem. The State of Israel and the State of Palestine both claim Jerusalem as their capital, neither claim is widely recognised, but the move by Trump lends weight to Israel’s claim, some would consider that significant.
But it didn't cost any lives, so compared with the impact of Biden's ongoing supply of bombs it is of zero consequence. I'm sure Trump would be no less keen to keep sending supplies to help the killing of brown people, but it's not night and day.
Israeli forces fire on UN peacekeepers in Lebanon
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1155551
“UNIFIL’s Naqoura headquarters and nearby positions have been repeatedly hit,” the UN mission said in a statement. “This morning, two peacekeepers were injured after an IDF Merkava tank fired its weapon toward an observation tower at UNIFIL’s headquarters in Naqoura, directly hitting it and causing them to fall.
This is what the IDF think about children:
65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza
I worked as a trauma surgeon in Gaza from March 25 to April 8. I’ve volunteered in Ukraine and Haiti, and I grew up in Flint, Mich. I’ve seen violence and worked in conflict zones. But of the many things that stood out about working in a hospital in Gaza, one got to me: Nearly every day I was there, I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or the chest, virtually all of whom went on to die. Thirteen in total.
At the time, I assumed this had to be the work of a particularly sadistic soldier located nearby. But after returning home, I met an emergency medicine physician who had worked in a different hospital in Gaza two months before me. “I couldn’t believe the number of kids I saw shot in the head,” I told him. To my surprise, he responded: “Yeah, me, too. Every single day.”
Shooting at UN Peacekeepers now?
But, I suppose if all you ever get for your thuggery is strong words, then you tend not to give a toss.
This is what the IDF think about children:5 6 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza
The two authors of the report though are, like the two main antagonists in this forum thread, well known one sided activists outside their day job. One has a twitter history of familiar sounding quotes comparing Israel to the Nazis and the other is down with calling October 7th last year an innovative and astounding achievement.
The two authors of the report though are, like the two main antagonists in this forum thread, well known one sided activists outside their day job. One has a twitter history of familiar sounding quotes comparing Israel to the Nazis and the other is down with calling October 7th last year an innovative and astounding achievement.
Is there some aspect of the report you wish to challenge? Or is ad hominem all you’ve got?
"You have to watch this immensely revealing and horrifying testimony by Jewish-American humanitarian surgeon Mark Perlmutter who spent 2 weeks in Gaza"
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1815494340635963690
The two authors of the report though are, like the two main antagonists in this forum thread, well known one sided activists outside their day job.
I guess you also have similar disdain for the reporting from unicef, oxfam, save the children and if that’s not enough to shift your opinion then perhaps spend 30mins on Twitter, TikTok and see what you come up with.
Here’s another one sided activist/consultant plastic surgeon talking of her time in Gaza and the difficulties in being “allowed” into the country by COGAT (Israeli military of defence)
My mum was across at Wigtown book festival last weekend (only 30mins away) for a talk by Lindsey Hilsum and to get her book signed, Lindsey was wearing a keffiyeh and talked of reports from those she knows and trusts in Gaza - she was utterly scathing of what’s happening to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank , then again perhaps she is also a well known one sided activist outside her normal job reporting from war zones.
https://twitter.com/lindseyhilsum/status/1842987211312202039?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg
Oh look!, another one sided activist outside his normal day job
https://youtu.be/oNk7YDq_Axs?si=90E_Bwju7hdvCWvg
I could carry on if you like?
Last Sunday :
IDF chief says Hamas is 'defeated' as Israel turns focus to Hezbollah after year of war in Gaza
Yesterday :
'Catastrophic situation’ at children’s hospital as Israel renews Gaza attacks
Dr Husam Abu Safiyeh, the director of Kamal Adwan hospital in Beit Lahiya, said it had not been possible to comply with an Israeli army order to evacuate all patients within 24 hours.
The Israeli military said the latest raid was intended to stop Hamas fighters staging further attacks from Jabaliya and to prevent them from regrouping.
What are they going to escalate to next? Stronger words? Cessation of chocolate imports?
Well, as you no doubt guessed, they are going to do nothing at all. Meanwhile…
A US-made munition was used in a strike on central Beirut that killed 22 people and wounded 117, according to an analysis of shrapnel found by the Guardian at the scene of the attack.
The strike on Thursday night hit an apartment complex in the densely populated neighbourhood of Basta, levelling the apartment building and destroying cars and the interiors of nearby residences.
15.40 EDT
Biden 'absolutely' asking Israel to stop firing at UN peacekeepers
Joe Biden said he is asking Israel to stop firing at UN peacekeepers in Lebanon, after two incidents in which Blue Helmets were wounded by Israeli forces.
Asked by a reporter at the White House if he was asking Israel to stop, the US president replied on Friday:
Absolutely, positively
"Joe Biden said he is asking Israel to stop firing at UN peacekeepers in Lebanon, after two incidents in which Blue Helmets were wounded by Israeli forces."
I wonder if Biden has considered the option of telling the Israelis to stop shooting at UN peacekeepers rather than just asking them to stop?
After all shooting at UN peacekeepers is a violation of international humanitarian law, so maybe a stronger stance might be appropriate?
I wonder if Biden has considered the option of telling the Israelis to stop shooting at UN peacekeepers rather than just asking them to stop?
Well, steady on. First he needs to ask the Israelis if they pretty please might possibly consider undertaking an investigation into whether the Israelis might have inadvertently fired at UNIFIL, and then wait until they provide a thorough and impartial report saying that they definitely had nothing to do with it.