MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
the only civilian suffering IS on the Palestinian side
I am obviously talking about the current situation, not the situation a year ago. But you knew that.of course.
Nowhere have I dismissed the deaths and suffering of Israelis. Really the nitpicking says it a all.
Nowhere have I said that Israeli deaths don't count. So since we all agree that Israeli civilians deaths count how about some comments on the Hannibal Directive?
Or are we dismissing Israeli deaths as not important if they are killed by the IDF?
Moral high ground? LOL
The day the colonial power (anyone no exception) set foot on the soil of others they lost all their morality.
Attempts to claim equivalence of 1195 Israeli deaths with tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths: 0
So you are not counting all the Palestinians who died before Oct 7? They count as 0?
Nearly 700 Palestinians have died in the West Bank in the last year, and they were dieing before that. Indeed it was claimed that due to the Israelis killing so many Palestinians before Oct 7 that another intifada was brewing and Hamas launched their attack is an attempt to grab the initiative.
It's weird how Palestinian lives don't count
I am obviously talking about the current situation
So all the displaced Israelis in the north aren't suffering, all the Israelis who have relatives held hostage aren't suffering, the Israelis who lost loved ones in the armed forces aren't suffering, the Israelis cowering in bunkers tonight aren't suffering. Sure Palestinian suffering is on a different level but you can't just dismiss the real Israeli suffering because it doesn't fit your agenda.
Long before Oct 7 2023
2022 becomes the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank in over 15 years
Do they count or do you want to dismiss them?
The IDF have been killing Palestinians since 1948. But for some people the total is 0
Any comments about the Hannibal Directive, or don't Israelis killed by the IDF matter/count?
So you are not counting all the Palestinians who died before Oct 7? They count as 0?
I'm struggling to understand the mental hoops you must have jumped through to get that from even a single one of my posts here.
But you carry on with your nonsensical attempts to divert attention away from your crystal clear, tripled-down on feelings about non-Palestinian suffering. We can all read your words Ernie. We can all read mine. And I'm confident that whilst I'll often come across as a prick, I've never been quite so off colour as you in this matter.
So all the displaced Israelis in the north aren’t suffering, all the Israelis who have relatives held hostage aren’t suffering, the Israelis who lost loved ones in the armed forces aren’t suffering, the Israelis cowering in bunkers tonight aren’t suffering.
"Suffering" is obviously a relative thing. For some people "suffering" describes watching Sunderland every Saturday. Being forced to leave your home and hide in a bunker may meet some definition of "suffering", but compared with, say, watching your infant daughter having her leg ampatated without anaesthesia because the Israelis bombed the hospital, it doesn't really get on the same page. And calling both experiences by the same name - "suffering" - without qualification, is an expression of equivalence that simply can't be allowed to take root.
Jeezus. Is it any wonder why there are wars and escalating tensions in the world. If a bunch of spectators on the sidelines of a forum can’t accept/see the other sides views on a topic and have a calm discussion what hope is there of opposing nations with years of history doing so. This sort of thread always descends into the same outcome of whataboutery and posters shouting at the moon. People will have different opinions, especially on such sensitive topics, stop trying to be the one to shout loudest.
At the risk of trying to rationally assess anything rather than have another 34 pages of shit throwing...
but Israel’s government seems hell bent on losing any moral high ground it had.
With Netanyahu, I don't believe having the moral high ground is his real concern. It's about his remaining in power. And continuing (and even escalating) the war makes him more popular amongst a many of voters n Israel.
What Iran has just dome however is gifted him the excuse to go further on the attack.
In all the death and injury on all sides, don't lose sight that it's really Iran that is the big shit stirrer in the region.
Well that is obviously untrue, because if was true you would be to copy and paste the bit where I dismissed the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare. But obviously you can’t.
So I thought I’d pop back to the Another war in Palestine thread that was started on Oct 7th, and it seems you spent at least the first few pages denying that Israeli civilians had been targeted at all.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anoother-war-in-palestine/
You clearly stated that the total Palestinian deaths when Hamas launched their attack had been, quote, 0
For ****'s sake Ernie. Read before you post. It's embarrassing.
These are my exact words. You yourself quoted them.
Attempts to claim equivalence of 1195 Israeli deaths with tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths: 0
Dismissals of Palestinian, Lebanese, etc. deaths: 0
Dismissals of Israeli, migrant worker, tourist deaths: at least 3
Point to the bit where I "clearly stated" zero Palestinian deaths. I can see where I said "tens of thousands". Help me out Ernie. Where did I say zero?
Apologies Flyingox, in that case it wasn't clear to me that you were claiming that no one had made a comparison, I think it was very clear to me that an attempt was made to compare the suffering of Palestinians with the suffering of Israelis. I have no idea where you get "O" from. This whole tangent is precisely about that.
Any views about the Hannibal Directive?
So I thought I’d pop back to the Another war in Palestine thread that was started on Oct 7th, and it seems you spent at least the first few pages denying that Israeli civilians had been targeted at all.
If you are going go through all the effort of trawling through a thread that was closed almost the year ago you might have might as well have made the extra effort of copying and pasting the bits that you didn't like.
I have no idea what you are referring to but obviously if Hamas has the possibility of targeting an IDF target or a civilian target they will go for the military one. Any reasonable person will understand that, although those who believe that Hamas are solely motivated by being "evil" might not.
They probably also believe that Hamas decapitated babies. Did you know that Joe Biden said that he saw photographs of babies who had decapitated by Hamas? Unfortunately a day or two later the White House denied that he had.
Any thoughts about the IDF targeting Israelis?
obviously if Hamas has the possibility of targeting an IDF target or a civilian target they will go for the military one.
They killed 364 people dancing at a music festival. They machine gunned farm hands and families sheltering in Kibbutz safe rooms. They fire unguided rockets indiscriminately into Israel, including at me. And you're talking about them obviously choosing military targets?
Character.
[Mod] we're now closing this thread but it will be reopened tomorrow.
Any comments about the Hannibal Directive, or don’t Israelis killed by the IDF matter/count?
Just when you think it can't get any madder, along comes information that the IDF has a directive that to prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers by enemy forces it says that "the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces." A UN commission report found that on 07 October this directive was applied by the IDF and they killed Israeli civilians and soldiers rather than let them be used as hostages by Hamas..................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
Seems pretty rational to me, given the circumstances.
With Netanyahu, I don’t believe having the moral high ground is his real concern. It’s about his remaining in power.
I agree completely. Netanyahu was on his way out before all of this. I have friends and colleagues in Israel and visited 3-4 times per year before the trouble really began. There was a significant division amongst the population with the younger generations railing hard against Netanyahu. Nothing like a good war to pull people together (or force them to support the encumbent).
On the subject of suffering being debated(?) above, I don't know anyone in Gaza or Palestine but am sure they are all suffering. I can say for sure that the Israelis I know are definitely suffering, it's a relatively small country and fairly close knit society. Most of them will have lost someone. Their hearts are breaking. I was messaging some of them last night while they were in shelters and I can assure you they were not having a good time.
For the keyboard warriors / big hitters on here who believe everything they see and read, please just stop for a moment and realise that there are real people on both sides of this conflict. They didn't choose this path yet they are the ones who will suffer the most.
Just when you think it can’t get any madder, along comes information that the IDF has a directive that to prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers by enemy forces it says that “the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces.”
That's been pretty prevalent throughout the history of warfare. Whether it's a formal named plan is a separate discussion. If I was an Israeli soldier, especially a female soldier, I think a quick death from my own side might be the better option.
War is horrific for everyone involved.
War is horrific for everyone involved.
Less so if you're sat behind a desk in a nice bomb-proof building, though.
I'm sure that's what Nasrallah thought too
I was messaging some of them last night while they were in shelters
I was messaging my friend's mum in Gaza. Oh. No i wasn't. She didn't have a shelter and she's dead now. Still. No winners, eh?
I was messaging my friend’s mum in Gaza. Oh. No i wasn’t. She didn’t have a shelter and she’s dead now. Still. No winners, eh?
I'm sorry for your friends loss. How is that the fault of the ordinary people hiding in shelters who didn't ask for this war?
I can say for sure that the Israelis I know are definitely suffering,
According to someone in Israel a week ago :
TheFlyingOx
Full Member
My source is being in Israel and walking about, seeing people buying cars and eating in restaurants and dancing in nightclubs and going to work ......
It doesn't quite sound like Gaza does it? Are there any restaurants and nightclubs left in Gaza?
To try to push this "the Israelis are also suffering" line, and suggest some sort of equivalence is absurd. Any reasonable person knows that.
Quite frankly, I think I’d prefer a quick death from my own side than being taken hostage by Hamas.
Would you feel better if they were also living and dying in bombed out buildings Ernie? What level of suffering is required for you to acknowledge someones pain?
I thought long and hard before posting in this thread, I generally avoid them for exactly this binary view of the world. I'll leave you to it.
if Hamas has the possibility of targeting an IDF target or a civilian target they will go for the military one
Can't believe I have read that. Hamas don't care as long as the target is Israeli. I take it you have seen the body-cam footage from the Hamas attack? Supporting the Palestinian people is one thing, attempting to justify Hamas is something quite different.
What Hamas did was unforgiveable, Israel's response is totally unforgiveable. Neither side care who they kill, friend or foe. My thoughts are with the innocents on both sides.
#edit: "I thought long and hard before posting in this thread, I generally avoid them for exactly this binary view of the world. I’ll leave you to it." - Ditto.
Well I wasn't walking around in the middle of the largest ballistic missile attack in history, was I? I was in a secure shelter, as was pretty much everyone else in Israel.
You keep taking about "equivalence" when nobody else has. Is this "equivalence" in the room with you now, Ernie?
How is that the fault of the ordinary people hiding in shelters who didn’t ask for this war?
Well it's only the fault of those who are backing this senseless slaughter which in so far has cost the lives of 47,000 Palestinians in the last 12 months, 70% of them women and children.
Obviously it isn't the fault who those don't support Netanyahu far-right government and what it is doing in Gaza, such as Gideon Levy for example, but all the evidence is that a large majority of Israelis support what the IDF are doing in Gaza.
Although to be fair this should be seen in the context of Israelis being fed false narratives by a neo-fascist government. Many genuinely believe the Israeli government lies that aid into Gaza isn't being hampered, so they are unlikely to have a true picture of the situation.
I wouldn't be surprised if the 47,000 dead Palestinians including 17,000 was widely dismissed as untrue. People tend not to believe the horrors committed in their name, hence Holocaust denial.
geez. backs out of thread....
Would you feel better if they were also living and dying in bombed out buildings Ernie? What level of suffering is required for you to acknowledge someones pain?
Well obviously I wouldn't, but that isn't happening is it? And there is little chance that it will happen. So why even mention this straw man?
Yes I would be absolutely appalled if 17,000 Israeli children had died and many more left maimed in the last 12 months due to a senseless slaughter, of course I would. And if it happens I will say so without hesitation.
I start off from a position of complete neutrality, I am neither a Palestinian nor a Zionist. And from that starting position I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians are the victims and the Zionists are the aggressors.
I am not alone in that conclusion and despite the attitude of some on this thread it is a conclusion which more and more people throughout the world are rapidly coming to.
Well it’s only the fault of those who are backing this senseless slaughter which in so far has cost the lives of 47,000 Palestinians in the last 12 months, 70% of them women and children.
Including Iran and its allies?
Seems that the people butchered on Oct 7th don't count neither does the celebration of their deaths.
I'll leave you to it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the 47,000 dead Palestinians including 17,000 was widely dismissed as untrue
Of course it is. When the Gaza Health Ministry reclassified deaths to list separately those victims who were identified it was trumpeted as being proof that the death figures had been inflated.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the 47,000 dead Palestinians including 17,000 was widely dismissed as untrue.
They're probably thinking 'false flag'.
Including Iran and its allies?
You do realise that there has been a turkey shoot going on in Gaza for the last 12 months don't you? Yes it's fine to condemn Hezbollah for lobbing missiles over the boarder but why aren't Western nations putting a stop to the current genocide in Gaza?
Why aren't Western governments forcing the Israeli government to comply with UN Resolutions? Or at least the big three, countries such as Ireland and Spain undoubtedly would if they could. Unfortunately United States hegemony calls the shots, and instead they are supplying Israel with the tools to do the killing.
I find the recent changing attitude by some on this thread interesting. For long periods highlighting the horrors being committed by the IDF to the Palestinians went unchallenged, or rarely challenged.
Now suddenly this thread takes a distinctively more pro-Israeli less pro-Palestinian position. The reason? Well I think it is obvious, because Iran has lobbed a couple of hundred missiles at Israel. That clearly was the catalyst.
Netanyahu might be a psychopath but he is a clever psychopath with fantastic survival instincts. He knows that by widening the conflict, especially drawing in Iran which he has been provoking for months to attack Israel, is likely to rally Western support behind Israel at a time when the situation looks desperate and there is little chance of defeating Hamas.
It seems to have worked a treat. The zionist supporters who for a long period remained silent and I guess embarrassed by the barbarity of the IDF have suddenly become animated and vocal because Israel is facing a hostile attack. All of a sudden it's "won't anyone think of the poor Israelis sitting in their shelters?"
But of course all Netanyahu is guaranteeing is that Israel will never have peace and security. He can't defeat Hamas nor maintain an unsustainable war. Expanding it might bring temporary support from the United States but long-term it will bring more enemies and more global insolation. Although I don't know how much that bothers him.
Even if Netanyahu kills every Hamas and Hezbollah militant, fighter, supporter... whatever. He'll just make twice the number of enemies amongst their orphans, their families, their friends, even just their religion.
I'm not sure, logically, there is a feasible end result that delivers even medium-term security to Israel. So what's the aim? Kill all Muslims?
Quite frankly, I think I’d prefer a quick death from my own side than being taken hostage by
...some on this thread
Now suddenly this thread takes a distinctively more pro-Israeli less pro-Palestinian position
I genuinely think you are misreading what people are posting. No one is posting support for the horrors Israel has inflicted. We are simply pointing out that innocents on both sides have suffered, albeit in vastly different numbers, as they do in all wars.
If you cannot see the difference, then you maybe need to take a break from barking at the wind. I admire your support for the Palestinian cause, but you are really not getting the nuance of the posts on here the last couple of days. Nuance isn't easy to get on forum posts, but you are doing yourself, the forum and especially the mods no favours with your approach at the moment.
I genuinely think you are being deliberately misleading about what people are posting.
There have been enough pages of this thread to see the pattern now.
There have been enough pages of this thread to see the pattern now.
To be fair he is passionate about this issue, maybe a little too passionate in terms of internet forum discussions.
On the World at One on R4 there was a Israeli commander who mentioned of an IDF soldier killed in Lebanon in the previous 24hrs, no mention of the 110 killed in Gaza or the 19 members killed of the same family in the previous 24hrs, And then he had the cheek to mention that the Mossad headquarters that were targeted are situated in a heavily built up area of Tel Aviv therefore the bombing/targeting of such an area is utterly indiscriminate and putting the safety of innocent Israeli civilians at risk.
It’s racism pure and simple, Palestinian lives do not count
I genuinely think you are misreading what people are posting. No one is posting support for the horrors Israel has inflicted
You are doing the very thing which you are accusing me of. Nowhere have I said people "support the horrors Israel has inflicted". In fact I suggested the complete opposite :
For long periods highlighting the horrors being committed by the IDF to the Palestinians went unchallenged, or rarely challenged.
No one has tried to defend the slaughter of Palestinians on this thread, unsurprisingly. No one has dared to even attempt to justify 47,000 dead Palestinians, and countless more maimed.
The claim I am making is that this thread has suddenly taken a more pro-Israeli stance since yesterday, with less talk about Palestinians and more talk about poor Israelis sitting in their shelters, and a lot of emphasis on how evil Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are.
What do you think happened yesterday to cause this change of attitude? You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out. Netanyahu's strategy is working - Israel's supporters after a long time being on the back foot suddenly feel energised. Now it's all about Israel's right to defend itself.
Genocide is not self-defence.
a lot of emphasis on how evil Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are
They're all angels, and are in no way responsible for the violence in the region... it's all about Israel, and once it is destroyed peace will reign.
[ obviously I don't believe any of that... reducing the problems of the region to "one side is bad" and choosing not to see that others are also complicit in the never ending attacks, death and fear isn't helpful at all... and neither is labelling anyone who doesn't want Israel destroyed through force as a "supporter of Israel" ]
They’re all angels, and are in no way responsible for the violence in the region… it’s all about Israel, and once it is destroyed peace will reign.
I think you might be deliberately ignoring the point l am making. Since yesterday the "emphasis" has been how evil Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are, much more than previously.
Netanyahu's plan is working. Well at least with a few punters on stw - they can refocus the attention away from what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank
Why aren’t Western governments forcing the Israeli government to comply with UN Resolutions? Or at least the big three, countries such as Ireland and Spain undoubtedly would if they could. Unfortunately United States hegemony calls the shots, and instead they are supplying Israel with the tools to do the killing.
And currently their eyes are on Iran, Americas #favorite enemy(In the middle east).
Some early talk on Iran's nuclear capabilities.
Netanyahu’s plan is working
Since Iran's latest missile strikes, it is being talked about more (and covered more in the media) for sure. It does drag other countries into the situation, and Netanyahu is probably happy with that... if that's what you mean by "plan working". But just as Netanyahu could (and should) have responded in a different way to the Hama's attacks (rather than giving them the escalation they probably wanted)... Ayatollah Ali Khamenei could have chosen not to bomb Israel after the attacks on Hezbollah (and not given Netanyahu the escalation he seems to want). Iran is not just a bystander here.
You vote for warmongers, you get wars.
Seems a little harsh to condemn all Palestinians that way because a majority voted Hamas into power. Must be even worse for the Lebanese as they did not vote for Hezbollah to wage Iran's proxy war from their communities.
a majority voted Hamas into power
Really? When was that? I keep hearing that Israel is the only "real" democracy in the Middle East?
And currently their eyes are on Iran, Americas #favorite enemy(In the middle east).
Last time they sided with Saddam in a war against Iran, so at least they are consistent.
Then both of them changed the rulebook…..
Really? Which rules were they? The rules about elected parliamentarians being arrested by Israel? About US funding one party?
Then both of them changed the rulebook…..
One of the reasons that Israel is so successful with its propaganda is because its hasbara campaign deliberately misleads people into totally false narratives.
I am not criticising you MCTD because the claim that Hamas stopped elections from happening is widely believed. For a lot of people there is no reason to disbelieve it. Only people who take a keen interest in Palestine are likely to know that it was actually the Israeli government who "changed the rules".
Abbas: Palestinian elections postponed after Israel blocks Jerusalem vote
"We have decided to postpone the parliamentary elections until we ensure the participation of the people of Jerusalem,” Abbas said in a statement. “The elections must be held in all the Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem.”
Abbas announced the Palestinian elections were postponed in all Palestinian territories, including in Gaza, not Hamas.
The EU has long been frustrated with the Israeli government for blocking the Palestinian right to vote in East Jerusalem
EU accuses Israel of ignoring request to observe Palestinian elections
Palestinian elections would have occurred 3 years ago if it hadn't been for Israel's refusal to allow them in East Jerusalem.
You will note that neither the Jerusalem Post nor the Times of Israel refer to East Jerusalem, only "Jerusalem". This is because not only is East Jerusalem under illegal occupation but Israel has now formally annexed it.
Donald Trump when he was US president famously approved of this annexation of East Jerusalem and moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem.
The UK refuses to recognise the illegal annexation and the British Embassy is in Tel Aviv, along with 90 other countries. Only 5 countries have their embassies in Jerusalem.
If the Palestinians agreed not to hold elections in East Jerusalem but in other occupied territories it would signal the acceptance of the illegal annexation of East Jerusalem.
This is a good watch/listen with William Dalrymple,
You do realise that there has been a turkey shoot going on in Gaza for the last 12 months don’t you? Yes it’s fine to condemn Hezbollah for lobbing missiles over the boarder...
(Disregarding decades of earlier conflict for brevity) the current conflict in Gaza started last year with the murders of Israelis, many of whom were young and unarmed. Iran's ISNA news quoted a government spokesman who said, "What took place today is in line with the continuation of victories of the anti-Zionist resistance in different fields, including Syria, Lebanon and occupied lands."
It isn't just Hezbollah (or Hamas or the Houthis) lobbing missiles, but the active hand of Iran supplying weapons and working through a network of proxies, which they have done for decades. The Iranian leadership opposes the US involvement in the region and wants to regain what they see as occupied Palestinian land and won't stop in those aims.
...but why aren’t Western nations putting a stop to the current genocide in Gaza?
How can they? Iran has doubled down on the attacks by its proxies by openly attacking Israel with c200 missiles on Tuesday. Until now Iran has largely operated behind the scenes, but the threat has always been there, so the US feels that refusing to supply weapons isn't an option.
Why isn't Iran putting a stop to the current conflict in Gaza by withdrawing weapons from Hamas and Hezbollah?
The situation in Gaza won't have a chance of a solution until every party involved acknowledges the death and consequences for ordinary people and acts in concert to stop
Last time they sided with Saddam in a war against Iran, so at least they are consistent.
Last time Iran sat back while the US-led coalition attacked Saddam. Iran acted according to their script and supplied their Hezbollah proxy with IEDs and other weapons, waiting for the inevitable vacuum left by their foes in Iraq.
Around 2500 US troops remain in Iraq and that will be reduced in 2025
The Iranian leadership opposes the US involvement in the region and wants to regain what they see as occupied Palestinian land and won’t stop in those aims.
Regain? When where occupied Palestinian territories ever part of Iran? The only thing that has drawn countries in the region closer to Palestine is zionism. Culturally,. ethnically, and religiously, Iran and the Palestine are quite separate.
And it is perfectly acceptable to support the end of Israel's illegally occupation of Palestine, there are lot of things to criticise Iran for but I don't think that's one of them - it is actually United Nations policy, which obviously Israel ignores.
On the question of US involvement in the region thanks to the Americans Iran is now the major foreign power in Iraq. They used to be sworn enemies and fought a truly horrendous and brutal War.. So I doubt the Iranian regime are crying into their cornflakes over that.
It reminds of the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy's comment...... Western strategy in the region is "kill first, think later"
From Rivals to Allies: Iran’s Evolving Role in Iraq’s Geopolitics - April 2024
Moreover, the alignment of Iraq’s political orientation with that of Iran has the effect of augmenting the latter country’s overall regional standing. This alignment not only reinforces Iran’s position but also serves as a counterbalance to the influence of regional competitors, such as Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Qatar, and Türkiye. This strategic significance underscores the importance of Iraq in Iran’s broader regional aspirations.
So I doubt the Iranian regime are crying into their cornflakes over that.
Isn't that what I said?
You could start an argument with yourself and carry it on for, ooh, 36 pages 🙂
Isn’t that what I said?
I never made any claim about you said. You brought up the issue of US involvement in the region so I took it further with "on the question of US involvement in the region" and went into greater detail with regards to the changing geopolitics.
If we are both in agreement what are you arguing about? That I shouldn't have highlighted the case of Iraq?
My Jewish British-Israeli accountant has just informed me that today is the Hebrew New Year. So happy 5784 to anyone who is Jewish on this thread. I know two stwers are at least part-jewish but I sure there will be more.
As my accountant pointed out ...... you have been counting longer!
The situation in Gaza won’t have a chance of a solution until every party involved acknowledges the death and consequences for ordinary people and acts in concert to stop
You’re not wrong, but after all the word games the fact is that one side has directly killed over 50,000 people and reduced a population of a million to starvation, disease and destitution, destroying every vestige of infrastructure in a defenceless territory. I’d say that the onus was on them to stop the madness, wouldn’t you ?
Iran wants the US and Israel out of the region
If only that nice Mr Shah were still in charge
The new year is 5785.
Abbas announced the Palestinian elections were postponed
And was roundly criticised for doing so. Especially by Hamas who had boycotted the elections anyway before Israel stuck its oar in. But given that Hamas (like Hezbollah) aren't interested at all in democracy, social justice or human rights, elections as far as they're concerned; aren't the basis for their legitimacy.
I’d say that the onus was on them to stop the madness, wouldn’t you ?
I’d say that the onus was on all of them to stop the madness, wouldn’t you ?
Damn those Palestinians.
The ordinary citizens of Palestine, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria or anywhere else have very little power to stop conflict. But you knew that didn't you?
Well history teaches us all lessons, even if politicians ignore those lessons. The last 1000 years is littered with examples of more powerful groups repressing smaller or more vulnerable groups. Most recently it's been the Russia, Soviet Union, Vietnam further back the British Empire, French Empire and so on. All have the same outcome so there is an inevitability about Palestine and Israel.
Also history teaches us if you repress a group with violence and treat them.like animals then they will respond in greater numbers and act like animals.
The West accepts Israels behaviour because of the holocaust and the west also feels a responsibility for the holocaust. The soloution is the creation of a Palestinian state, this will never be accepted by Israel.
The ordinary citizens of Palestine, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria or anywhere else have very little power to stop conflict. But you knew that didn’t you?
Of course. If you're desperately looking for clean water for your kids, there's not much you can do to influence geopolitics. But if you're dropping bombs on schools, that's different. I repeat - one side is being slaughtered. Stop it.
Well history teaches us all lessons
Doesn't seem to be many lessons learned from history among the Israeli govt, military and those who support them. You'd think they'd have a unique pespective on the issue of genocide but apparently not.
Especially by Hamas who had boycotted the elections anyway before Israel stuck its oar in.
LOL boycotting elections doesn't stop them from happening!
The reason there wasn't any elections throughout Palestine in 2021 is because of Israel, not Hamas. So there is no point blaming Hamas, unless of course you want to deliberately mislead people.
As for Hamas's past boycotting of elections it was intense pressure from the EU for them to participate which led them to finally agreeing to getting involved. I believe the EU funded the elections. Obviously the EU calculation was that Hamas would lose the elections and thereby delegitimize themselves.
Never forget that Hamas was funded and supported by Israel as a counter to the left-wing secular PLO at a time when the West thought it was a great idea to fund and support similar Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan.
Netanyahu continued to prop up Hamas throughout his various premierships. Netanyahu himself is an atheist but religious Zionists and Islamic fundamentalists have one thing in common, they are both right-wing.
Although Netanyahu's reasons for supporting Hamas was the obvious one, as sworn enemies of the left-wing secular PLO it sowed divisions among the Palestinian people and made their opression easier. Unfortunately the PLO is deeply corrupt so the balance has for a long time been moving in Hamas's favour.
The new year is 5785
Great, I've got a Jewish accountant who can't count 🙁
Doesn’t seem to be many lessons learned from history among the Israeli govt, military and those who support them. You’d think they’d have a unique pespective on the issue of genocide but apparently not.
That really is the true tragedy for the region.
I think it is clear why Netanyahu gave the order to assassinate Hassan Nasrallah, he wants war.
Hezbollah leader agreed to temporary ceasefire days before assassination, says Lebanese foreign minister
A day earlier, a joint statement issued by the United States, France, Australia, Canada, the European Union, Germany, Italy, Japan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom, and Qatar called for a 21-day ceasefire, “to give diplomacy a chance to succeed and avoid further escalations across the border.”
Hezbollah leader agreed to temporary ceasefire days before assassination, says Lebanese foreign minister
So far uncorroborated, and the US announced in their press briefing yesterday that nothing had been said to them. At this point the story seems unlikely to be true.
At this point the story seems unlikely to be true.
"False flag". Kerching!!!
Meanwhile, the re-occupation of Gaza gathers pace ...