This thread makes me sad.
Oh, I don't know - driving bigots into a foaming rage by exposing their made-up, bullshit constructs for what they are is quite a noble pastime. I'd much rather be riding my bike, but a bout of the shits mean this is about my limit today.
Ninfan.
I asked for a reason why anything he said should result in his job being threatened.
You then went on to assume I'm some sort of hand wringing liberal grauniad reader, which I'm not.
Where do you suggest that I assumed anything about you, I simply pointed out an alternative scenario that would have seen very different treatment from 'the usual suspects on both sides'
I don't care what Lineker said (though in this case I do agree with him), I want to know why so many people found it so offensive.
I dislike this sort of hounding whichever side does it, so many people in the public eye are having careers messed up from saying relatively innocuous things.
However, fascists cannot continue to play the underdog or victim of PC when their own lot are doing exactly the same thing they moan about happening to them.
Well done, unlike Dannyh, you get the point
Also, I work with disabled children who have to deal every day with arseholes like you calling them retards. If you like, you can come and meet them and explain why you think your use of that word makes you so cool.
Ah, so you don't [i]really[/i] believe in people not being hounded for saying innocuous things then?
works two ways doesn't it, see your own point above.Either answer my question when you choose to quote me or don't quote me. Don't use my quotes to paint me as something I'm not, because you don't know me.
Ah, so you don't really believe in people not being hounded for saying innocuous things then?
Own your language, that's all I ask. I'm not hounding you, just offering you the opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of the words you choose.
i do so love threads which become all things to all men
Ah, so you don't really believe in people not being hounded for saying innocuous things then?
Oh stop playing the victim. Using the term "retard" as an insult isn't innocuous - it's offensive. If you don't see this then you are a very coarse individual.
No doubt you'll frame our objections to your language as "eeeh, it's PC Gone Mad" or something, but that would say far more about you than us.
Own your language, that's all I ask
Perfectly happy to, but on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words, for fear that they offended someone. Probably better with a dedicated thread, but happy to discuss that argument in detail
but on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words, for fear that they offended someone.
The standard bigot's getout clause. And a (wilful) misunderstanding of how language works.
Man uses pejorative language to dismiss the importance of retaining pejorative language shocker 😆
Ninfan.
As an aside did you realise that auto-correct rewrites your user name as 'infant'? I have to say, I find that absolutely wonderful.
For the record, I did get the 'point' you were trying so inexpertly to make. It's not difficult. The practice of setting up a line of argument based on a hypothetical construct is something that most kids master by the age of ten or so. That your point is based on a fallacy, and one of your own construction does weaken it somewhat. If you don't see this, then please stop before everyone is just reduced to laughing and pointing.
Ninfan, I think somewhere in all of this we kind of agree. This need to constantly condemn public figures for speaking up is having a damaging and increasingly polarising effect. However, I can't help but appreciate the irony of all the people who have been loudly banging on about this kind of public hounding doing exactly what they supposedly stand against. Either they are pro free speech, in which case Lineker is free to say what he likes without harrassment, or they are pro censorship and should grow up and admit it. They can't have their cake and eat it.
Dannyh, Strange, my autocorrect doesn't come up with that... are you sure it's not just your google search history kicking in?
Fin25, that's exactly the point, it's virtue signalling expanding into extreme hypocrisy on both sides - both those publically supporting him, who would be the first to call for his sacking if he said something they found offensive, and those attacking him, who would be the first to leap to his defence. We see the same thing happening with, for example, the 'no platforming' and 'safe space' games that are going on, it's just another way of expanding this social bubble filtering effect that excludes alternative points of view because we can't handle cognitive dissonance
Strange, my autocorrect doesn't come up with that... are you sure it's not just your google search history kicking in?
Yes, sure of that. Thanks for the concern, [s]infant[/s] ninfan.
Does your autocorrect also pick up poor debating constructs? It would appear not.
Have you finished trying to argue your way out of this now? It's just that the insults seem to be getting more frequent. If it is the case, I can trade insults with you for a while - although I suspect you would show more tenacity.
Losing an argument and resorting to abuse is one thing, but losing an argument that you have based around a fallacy you have yourself constructed is just pitiful.
I'm still to get an explanation of what he said that deserves being attacked though...
Ninfan, I do get your point about the shared hypocrisy on both sides, however clumsily you made it.
At this point it seems appropriate to leave you with the words of Sage Francis.
"I'm not left wing, or right wing, I'm the middle finger."
Peace.
This thread hits a new low, even by Singletrack standards. I'm not sure how someone can get away with calling someone a retard, or make clumsy accusations of paedophilia and not be pulled up on it.
This thread hits a new low, even by Singletrack standards. I'm not sure how someone can get away with calling someone a retard, or make clumsy accusations of paedophilia and not be pulled up on it.
You can't take away someone's entire reportoire of tactics, though, that's not fair.
Far better to let him run with it for a bit, just so we all know what we're dealing with.
Man uses pejorative language to dismiss the importance of retaining pejorative language shocker
OK I'll try again, because the devil is in the detail.
Your misconception is that all pejorative words are equal, and anyone who objects to the pejorative "retard" must also object to all pejoratives. This is a logical fallacy.
There are words in our language that most people don't use in public discourse. Not because there is some PC "list" of proscribed words dictated to us from on high, but because of a loose consensus that they are offensive. Usually, these words are considered offensive because they perpetuate a power imbalance; ie, they are words used by the (relatively) powerful about the (relatively) powerless. Racial and gender insults are examples.
People who defend their right to use such words publicly usually do so because, consciously or not, they wish to deny the power imbalances which gave rise to such words in the first place.
In my view, "retard" is a cheap insult which shows contempt for people with learning difficulties. I work with many people with learning difficulties and would choose their company any day of the week over someone who dismisses them as "retards".
So use the word if you like. There's no law against it, nor do I think there should be. But if you do, you should be aware that it signals to others something about your levels of compassion and empathy for others less fortunate. And sometimes, people will call you out on it.
Right. That's my best shot at explaining, calmly and patiently, the issue. Carry on.
As I pointed out, on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words because they ran the risk of causing offence or perpetuating a power imbalance. There is a strong lobby for the same treatment for the C-word on the basis of how it pertains to women for example. It's a road down which we ought to tread with caution, since we know where it leads
This thread hits a new low, even by Singletrack standards. I'm not sure how someone can get away with calling someone a retard, or make clumsy accusations of paedophilia and not be pulled up on it.
Well, I was just about to raise but by saying:
Woah, see that line waaaaaaaaaay back there?
You're right, new depths.
Spot on hebdencyclist. Such is the power of language.
(OTish) I remember watching There's Something About Mary for the first time. The use of 'retard' in that film surprised and shocked me more than any number of C bombs ever could (not that that would shock me at all - realise though that says more about me and my cultural sensibilities than anything else).
Danny, mate, go back and read what you wrote, you're also flinging insults too...
As I pointed out, on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words because
He clearly stated
There's no law against it, nor do I think there should be
Hebden and others, have a read of this, i think Kerry Anne Mendoza hits the nail firmly on the head in this piece
As I pointed out, on that basis you would have to ban all pejorative words
I've addressed this at some length.
There's no point in having a debate with someone who won't come out of their bunker.
As I say, write what you like, but be aware that others do form a judgement of you based on the words you choose.
Getting back on track....
[b]fin25[/b], Lineker said/tweeted "The treatment by some towards these young refugees is hideously racist and utterly heartless. What’s happening to our country?"
Now, unless you're going to argue that not one single person has ever said anything racist about the refugees he's talking about then he's right. It could be two people in a BNP local meeting, it could be MPs and the people writing newspaper front pages. But to say "Lineker is wrong" is to say that not a single person in the UK has acted in a racist way towards the refugees.
Edit: The tweet is here: https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/788407048031600640
Have a read of the replies if you've got too much faith in humanity and need to bring it down a bit.
The use of 'retard' in that film surprised and shocked me
Yeah. It's been a while since I've seen that but isn't his use of "retard" to do with signalling his character's general ineptitude and immaturity?
"This is England" is full of the use of the word "P@ki". I don't think anyone would argue it's a racist film; just that it has a racist character in it.
[quote=ninfan ]Flip the scenario, retard - if lineker had said something negative or offensive about immigrants, the same people currently lauding him would be the first ones calling for him to be sacked.
I'm not sure it will help, because it appears ninfan is one of those folks who can't cope with a logical argument, but nobody seems to have quite addressed his point directly.
The obvious difference, ninfan is that Lineker's tweet isn't at all offensive, no matter how you twist it. From what I can work out those complaining are upset that he isn't being offensive, because that's what public figures are supposed to be now we've all voted to be racists. I've tried to work out a correct analogy of flipping the situation, but there isn't really one.
If Lineker was actually being offensive and racist, there might be a reasonable argument for him being sacked, though I think you're a bit too dim witted (is that an allowed expression?) to understand the difference.
This thread hits a new low, even by Singletrack standards. I'm not sure how someone can get away with calling someone a retard, or make clumsy accusations of paedophilia and not be pulled up on it.
i was called a necrophile on here, don't think the mods even batted an eyelid, but I guess being accused of ****ing dead bodies is humourous. 🙄
dim witted (is that an allowed expression?)
I'll run it by The So-Called Liberal PC Brigade and get back to you.
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Yep you're good 😉
Still waiting...
Still waiting...
I don't think you're going to find many people on here who would agree with attacking Lineker for what he wrote. So you might be waiting a long time.
Go on Twitter, however, and there are plenty of "'ard workin' British taxpayers" who want him to be sacked.
Wandered in whilst a bit bored after lunch.
So far I'm pretty please not to have anything to do with foorball, twitter or shit newspapers.
