[Closed] Gaelic and English bilingual signs in the Highlands

My paternal grandparents both spoke Gaelic as a first language, yet my dad doesn't speak a word of gaelic. The language was seen as backward and a hindrance to progress in the 50s and 60s when he was growing up, so he was never taught it. It is still strong in the Western Isles, to a lesser extent on Skye and rare the further south and east you go.

It never was the language of the whole of Scotland - Scots was widely spoken around the Moray coast, down through Angus and in much of south and east of the country. You can see the boundary as it was around 1800 - 1850 when maps were being made and names documented on OS maps.

I like the bilingual signs, to the extent the placenames ever were in Gaelic. The example of Queen Street Station is a good one, it only came about when Scotrail put Gaelic names on all the West Highland Line stations whether they had originally had one or not.

Gaelic is an essential part of our cultural heritage and should be preserved - not at any expense, but at a reasonable expense. Given the rubbish this country wastes billions of pounds on, I think it's reasonable to spend something to preserve it.

A language is a living thing, and when it's gone it's gone, you can't get it back. It's probably too late for Cornish and Manx but Gaelic could be saved, it's probably in the same state as Welsh and Irish Gaelic were in 20 or 30 years ago. The roadsigns, if nothing else, raise awareness of the language and are a visible signal that it still exists.

Do you also think that in Ireland we shouldnt have bilingual signs also then?, especially as English is the dominant language We were taught it in school, along with english and i did german too. Sure I havent spoken Irish in 15yr but am damned proud of it and regard it as part of my heritage and something worthwhile preserving for future generations and should I kids want them to learn it also.

Bilingual road signs cause crashes? You're right - now I understand why the roads in Belgium, Finland, Switzerland, Ireland and far NE Italy are so famously dangerous!

"Incidentally I've always wondered and perhaps you can answer this question murdoch, if its so ****ing great up there, how come there are so many of us everywhere else?"

1) Home Counties-oriented national policy means to advance above a certain level in most industries you have to leave Scotland.

2) Historic heavy industry orientation + Home Counties-oriented economic policy in 70s and 80s made the erse drop out of the economy.

3) Zero tolerance policy on bitter losers asking vapid rhetorical questions, open door policy to English outdoorsy types.

Righto, try this one, and you'll get a better idea of where I'm comiong from on it.

As I said originally I have no problem with Gaelic, just the concept of spending millions on dual language signs which will cost even more millions to implement in a situation where no more than 1.2% of the population, and the majority of that only in the islands can read them. Totally pointless in my view.

Surely if Gaelic is that important the money would be better spent on something like free lessons for those who wish to take them? Not only that surely that would give a true picture of what proportion of the population want it, which after all is the important issue.

Regarding my comments to Murdoch. If you throw stones at people you should expect a response. Twas he not I who was giving it the big "yer wee sasanach bastard" thing. Frankly that chip on the shoulder aggresive and arrogant jock stereotype where no one else is allowed to have an opinion really boils my piss. Sorry if anyone else took offence. No intent on my part.

Oh yeah and konabunny, I don't suppose shipbuilding and the oil industry are heavy industry then? Did you not notice the loss of heavy industry every where else in the UK at the same time or is the chip on the shoulder that massive as to get in front of your eyes too?

Did you not notice the loss of heavy industry every where else in the UK at the same time

???

Yes, of course. That's why a whole bunch of people moved away/didn't move to a whole bunch of other places in the UK when those places had high unemployment and shagged-out old industries closing down with nothing to replace them. That's also the same reason why your comment of "if it's so great there, why do so many of them live in other places?" would be just as dopey if it were made about Taffs, Geordies, and whatever you call Yorkshire types.

You're getting terribly upset ("it boils my piss") about something that doesn't seem to affect you directly. Maybe it's you that has the chip on your shoulder?

As an English person, I like the fact that a lot of people speak English, as it makes life easy in a lot of places, and I like the fact that I speak good french, because it gives me a whole load more people I can talk to. From a practical point of view I would like to be able to speak and read a chinese language, spanish and some urdu. I tend to see languages as something that you learn so as to be able to communicate with more people, rather than using them as the basis of an exclusive club around which you can define an identity. But I accept that I don't "get" this as no-one has ever seriously tried to suppress any identity that I want to have.

G - Member
I have no problem with Gaelic, just the concept of spending millions on dual language signs which will cost even more millions to implement

Twas he not I who was giving it the big "yer wee sasanach bastard" thing. Frankly that chip on the shoulder aggresive and arrogant jock stereotype where no one else is allowed to have an opinion really boils my piss. Sorry if anyone else took offence. No intent on my part.

So you want millions to be spent on replacing the existing dual language signs? That's what the news story relates to after all.

Nice impression of me by the way, glad you know so much about me! Your blinkered opinions are the reason for so many people on here opposing you. Try and look at it from another point of view. You sit there around 600 miles away from the dual language signs, may never even see one yourself, and yet have so much to say about them?! You will currently and in the future be relying on Scotland for some of your energy and water needs, but you don't want the tiniest fraction of your taxes to pay to replace some road signs?

Do you also not want any money spent on road repairs in the highlands and islands, seeing as through-traffic is only a fraction of that of the A14? So what about cutting out Sunday ferry services from areas where they still run (on a loss)...would you happily cut those?

Och aye man hoots jings crivvens ya bawbag... who would spend money in a country where people speak like this?

"Och aye man hoots jings crivvens ya bawbag..."

Or in English, "Welcome to Falkirk".

Murdoch, Do you need it in Gaelic? Read the post

&

My blinkered opinions FFS ??

No Englishman can step in and say what should or shouldn't be done with them. Arrogance like that shown by G above belongs south of the Tweed (mind you, I'd become like him if I lived in Ipswich for long enough too).[i]

konabunny : as above to murdcoch Read my posts. I am Scottish by birth, although due to the reasons stated I have as Murdoch has rightly pointed out spent most of my life in and around Ipswich. I view myself as British, Scottish and European and not necessarily in that order. Absolutely correct re reasons why so many people have left. That is why pissing money away on something that has little relevance to most modern Scots is a waste of money. Surely to Christ that money is better spent reversing that very lack of investment, or is the intention to take the nation back to Rob Roys time before starting to move it forward????

I've always objected to my taxes paying for subsidsing opera - only a tiny fraction of the population go to an opera on a regular basis and I don't understand the words. I don't get wound up about it though 😛

Do you know what?

I don't, but the fact that you can't discuss these things without being bullied if you don't tow the "party" line does.

My favourite Welsh sign is on a ramshackle old building on Anglesea and reads 'Clwb Snwcer'

I'm all for bi-lingual signs, like to feel that Wales and Scotland are still proud of their heritage, despite the minor unpleasantness between them and the English over the last millennia or so 😀

G- good to see you stand your corner, even If I might not agree. Just one thing though. Saying stuff like

is the intention to take the nation back to Rob Roys time before starting to move it forward????

The thing is, G, you assume Gealic signs are not releveant to the vast majority of scots.

They bloody well are! Most scots see Gaelic signs and feel a sense of pride, belonging and a comfort in their own country. I do not speak gaelic but love seeing the signs.

You haven't answered my point, though, about the money being spent. Do you want the government to spend a fortune changing back all the signs to english-only or not?

Re Rob Roy post.

Nope, but just for the record its just referring to a point in time, and the convention is the past is back and the future is forward.

Besides arguably Rob Roy was a Jacobean cattle rustler and not in any way Gaelic. 😉

Anyway, easy to see why I really don't like nationalism. Such angst over things that have no more relevance to most Scots than Charles the First or Second has to most English people, (if in fact there is such a thing anymore!)

Re Murdochs post. Personally I'd leave well alone, and frankly your argument would have considerably more substance if you had taken your passion off and focussed it on learning the flaming language rather than ponitificating about it here.
So how about answering mine ? Road signs against spending money on Gaelic language tuition, OR Road signs against investment in long term permanaent Scottish jobs?

Which makes more sense a) to you and b) to the majority of the Scottish people?

Answer to a and b... BOTH! It's such small figures overall that they could easily be fitted in.

8)

There you go then thats where we disagree.

My father had to come south due to a lack of opportunity. He and I both would think you insane to spend money on irrelevant road signs as opposed to some serious effort to provide employment and economic well being for the millions of people who are displaced and/or disadvantaged through lack of investment in their futures. Same goes for Wales. I absolutely guarantee you its in the way the question is asked. Would you like Gaelic Road Signs? is one question, but if the question is are Gaelic Road signs top of your personal list of priorities? then thats another. For my money, while there are so many of us everywhere else, displaced and so forth, frankly you can stick your Gaelic up your proverbial derriere!

Think about it

PS: Oh yeah and the thread was about stopping it. I don't think it causes accidents, but I would stop it, not reverse it. And I can assure you its not going to be small change to carry the work out. You are talking £100's of millions for the whole of Scotland.

I don't think the proposal was [i]ever[/i] for the whole of Scotland. And surely changing them all would actually be [i]creating[/i] jobs?

You conferred with your father in relation to this thread? You must both be right then if you're so obsessed by the topic...I apologise

😀

Welsh was not a first choice language for the vast majority of the population until the teaching of it became compulsary in schools

Actually that's not true. It was most people's language until in the 20s and 30s they had to try and stamp it out in schools so that people could get ahead in an English dominated world. My Great-Grandparents were native speakers, but they didn't teach any to my Nan for fear of her being beaten. Most people know about this part of history and are in a similar position - the link between them and their historic culture was forcibly broken. Most people I've spoken to who don't speak Welsh wish they did.

And as for the money being better spent on giving free lessons - they already do that down here in Wales. They aren't spending tons of money replacing old signs with new bilingual ones, but often when there are still monolingual ones they get a 'Ble mae'r Cymraeg' sticker on them (is that right?)

At the end of the day though, no-one has a right to pass judgement on the value of a particular culture unless it in some way relates to them. I mean an English person can't really understand what it's like to be part of a threatened minority community/culture, can they?

Look at it another way - if the Germans had won the war, would you be perfectly happy to give up English and speak German all the time? Would you bring your kids up speaking only German? I suspect not. How'd you feel seeing them run around playing only speaking the language of your oppressors, and not the language that defines you?

Possibly, if I'd had since about 1245 to get used to the idea I might feel roughly the same as I do about those pesky normans snuffing out the ability to speak anglo-saxon that I don't particularly regard as my birthright. But I take your point. 😉

Molgrips is right you know....

re reading the road signs people can always slow down to read them if they're in 2 languages

Culture in Wales is thriving now and long may it continue!

You conferred with your father in relation to this thread? You must both be right then if you're so obsessed by the topic...I apologise

I'll take that as your argument on this point then?

Ditto what Bigdummy just said. I think you will find that your opinion on the percentage of Welsh speakers in Wales is slighty awry molgrips

The 2004 Welsh Language Use Survey shows 21.7% of the population of Wales are Welsh speakers. This is an increase from 20.5% in the 2001 census, and from 18.5% in 1991. The 2001 census also shows that about 25% of Welsh residents were born outside Wales.

I suspect that the increase may well be due to the compulsary teaching of it in schools. So all airy fairy ideas about the return to Eden apart, it doesn't really stack up does it? I still reckon that if asked a considerable percentage of the population would prefer the money it costs to go in some more meaningful direction for them personally. Most Welsh people I know personally are at best ambivalent about it, many more couldn't care less.

I think it's delightful and reminds us of the influence and Eastward spread of Irish culture (well, North of the mountains anyway; it's all nomadic Englanders southwards isn't it?)

😉

At the end of the day though, no-one has a right to pass judgement on the value of a particular culture unless it in some way relates to them. I mean an English person can't really understand what it's like to be part of a threatened minority community/culture, can they?

So does that mean that I and the millions of other Ex pat Scots aren't entitled to an opinion? When does Scottishness wear off and Englishness begin?

if I'd had since about 1245 to get used to the idea

Since 1900 more like.

The Normans didn't stamp out Welsh. Henry VIII passed the law that made it illegal, but in 1900 it was still 50% speaking. And this is in the face of massive immigration from England, so most of the other 50% were English.

So does that mean that I and the millions of other Ex pat Scots aren't entitled to an opinion?

Well I'd say so, yes - of course, you can have an opinion on anything, but if you're not from a Gaelic background, it's really not about you. You're not, as they say in the world of business, a stakeholder. Just being Scottish doesn't mean Gaelic is anything to do with you anyway, since Scotland has three national languages, none of which are indigenous to the whole country.