[Closed] Frakking?

call me a nimby if you like but which would you want in a place you love?

Depends where you live and why you love it?

One's all but invisible, the others a 12m high sea wall. One's negligaby going to impact on local wildlife and people, the other's a 12m high sea wall, etc.

And the 2nd isn't gas extraction, it's coal gasification, what we used before the north sea gas was discovered, but done underground rather than in a gasifier.

i live overlooking the site. i love it because of the wealth of natural beauty here. the wildlife, for instance the two porpoise i saw walking the dogs this morning. it is a 12m sea wall, but its underwater for half the day. its designed to act like a natural reef using a waste product that is dumped in the sea anyway. so an underground gasification plant doesnt extract gas does it? its expensive, unpredictable, dirty and wont provide anywhere near the amount of energy. setting fire to coal underground doesnt have a great track record you know.

out of sight out of mind, always the best response.

Fracking and coal gasification are two very different processes.

Fracking and coal gasification are two very different processes.

Never the less which would you think is a better investment? Investment in Renewable energy or investment in non - renewable energy?

The emphasis being on the word non.

We seem to live in a world where people are less interested in long term investment and more interested in making a quick buck and screw who comes next. The arguments against investing in renewable energy are pathetic at best. Yes I am aware that we need energy security but the issue of renewable's has been around as long as I've been alive and instead of running with it we have sat on the fence and now it probably is too late to secure our energy supplies from renewable sources.

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-wall-mounted-an-ipadnull ]Also can we not highlight the idea of using less energy. Go for a run outside man.[/url]

I just find it amusing that it rhymes with 'clacking'.

Never the less which would you think is a better investment? Investment in Renewable energy or investment in non - renewable energy?

Personally I'd class that as a false dichotomy.

i live overlooking the site. i love it because of the wealth of natural beauty here. the wildlife, for instance the two porpoise i saw walking the dogs this morning

What kind of dogs did they have?

😆

Personally I'd class that as a false dichotomy.

I am aware that we do need to secure our energy. However fence sitting on energy policies from however many different governments there have been in the last 30 ish years has kind of painted us into a corner; where by we can only secure our energy from non - renewable sources for the foreseeable future. Which in my opinion is also stealing from future generations when we could have secured energy for them already.

ScottChegg

You do know there were som major reforms to how the industry works after that disaster?

I know. That's kind of the point really.

How is it possible to have too much safety?

i live overlooking the site. i love it because of the wealth of natural beauty here. the wildlife, for instance the two porpoise i saw walking the dogs this morning.

so an underground gasification plant doesnt extract gas does it?

No, no it doesn't. You gasify coal, just like we did above ground before the discovery of north sea gas, there is no gas to start with. It has nothing to do with fracking or even coal seam gas.

its expensive, unpredictable, dirty and wont provide anywhere near the amount of energy. setting fire to coal underground doesn't have a great track record you know.

You're talking out of your arse. Even googleing for issues (I was unaware of any ever) only turned up one overpressurized coal seam which leached phenol into the groundwater, and that cleared up in 2 years and the technique has been used since the early days of Soviet Russia.

There is also the consumer cost implication of a strategic switch from gas use to pure elec. How many on here rely on a gas boiler with a gas cooker? You'd be chuffed if you got a note through the door advising you that gas supply to the area was being switched off and you need to convert everything to run on elec alone. Even a rapidly rising gas price would create an uncomfortable situation. Short term supply is required to make way for the longer term transition. Electricity consumption is going to increase significantly, particularly if there is a shift to electric transportation, and renewable is not currently in a position to cope with demand.

And for those that are moaning about the government grabbing the quick buck from the tax associated with fossil fuels....how else do you expect the country to pay for that health care service you use, schooling, unemployment benefits, subsidies for solar installations etc?

Jonah - gas extraction is not dirty nor is it expensive. That is just absolute bollocks

Well put Gotoma however the point still stand on the length of time the potential for renewable's has gone un-tapped and subsequently a switch over now would be a pain in the arse/costly yet if the change had been made gradually as investment was put into renewable's it would have less of a sting. I am aware that it is a none argument as far as we didn't do those things and we have arrived at the point we are at currently where by we can't gradually change over etc. Still it's nice to say these things to make it look like I give a toss.

I guess the crux of it all is that the world works to 11th hour strategies. Each company has a responsibility to its shareholders and that is generally maximising profitability. As such they will rinse every bit of tech as much as they can before moving on to a more future safe strategy. Hell we should and could easily all be riding lightweight gearbox systems on our bikes now if shimano and the like weren't continuing to push the rear mech. The reality is that fossil fuel production is still significantly cheaper than the overall cost of a shift to renewable based strategy. That will continue until the former becomes more expensive and comparable on cost....or renewable comes down in price.

Besides, apart from jonah's plan of surrounding the whole of the UK with a tidal wall, what renewable options do we have. Wind farms seem to be generally unreliable and create as much enviro uproar as gas, solar has taken a leap forward recently but until it can generate from extremely low light level then it doesn't seem great for the UK.

i vote for build loads of wind farms right on top of donald trumps golf course .....

jota180 - Member

What kind of dogs did they have?

Salty sea-dogs obviously.

jonah tonto - Member
ok so both of these proposals are on the same site.

tidal lagoon.
power for 100,000 homes for 100 years. no government money required.
http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/story-17211411-detail/story.html

That's exactly the kind of thing we should have all around our coastlines, low impact, reliable energy and 16 hours every day and at different times around the country.

(if i wanted to talk to people with the same opinion as me i'd talk to my friends. that is why i come on here, you get to learn something) but had to go to work for a bit.
ok TINAS, here are some Google links to underground coal fires getting out of control -
http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-gates-of-hell stupid russians eh?
or from the US who have been doing it for ages so it must be safe eh? http://www.damninteresting.com/the-smoldering-ruins-of-centralia/

the dogs were obviously labradoodles sice porpoise are known for their middle class pretentiousness (they are the roadie of the aquatic mammals after all)

seriously though, its a circular wall that really isnt that big (6 mile circumference) in a very big bay. i think ten would fit quiet happily. it has very little disruption in terms of sea life, the porpoise can go round and round picking off fish attracted by the new, protected breeding sites on the reef that get created. how can anyone think this could be a bad thing?

Gotama has the idea, big rich petro companies are holding back the patients on this kind of tech so they can maximise their profits, because environmental degradation and fuel security will not ever effect the uber rich

there are more, i just picked the two most dramatic 🙁

Hmm lots people in the industry are big cheerleaders for this it would seem - not a massive surprise.

I work in the oil and gas industry and I spend a large amount of my time ensuring not only that thing are safe but that they also meet and better the legally mandated environmental standards. A new project I put in has resulted in a water discharge with an oil concentration of less than 1 mg/kg (the test isn't accurate at figures lower than this). The legally mandated minimum is 30. Everyone is very very pleased that we can achieve such a low number.

I get very annoyed with people who think they know what goes on in this industry in the UK and spout drivel like this.

Meanwhile large parts of places like the Niger Delta are an environmental disaster zone thanks to the oil industry.

My concerns about fracking:
[list]
[*]the reported methane leaks to atmosphere, which could increase the total greenhouse potential by much more than then CO2 gains compared to coal. http://www.newscientist.com%2Farticle%2Fdn22521-methane-leaks-suggest-fracking-benefits-exaggerated.html [/*]

[*]burning up our gas supplies to make electricity - it's much too useful as a domestic fuel, in gas form. We should use renewables for electricity (with nuclear to bridge the gap while we sort the technology) and save the gas.[/*]

[*]the pollution issues will be a problem if they are not managed and I'm not sure how we will ensure they are[/*]

[*]mini-quakes are not likely to be big enough to cause significant damage[/*][/list]

Meanwhile large parts of places like the Niger Delta are an environmental disaster zone thanks to [s]the[/s] amongst many things the oil industry, locals who like to burst pipes to help the, selves to oil, local government stipulating that locals must operate the rigs even if they are spdc owned

Have you visited the niger delta before grum? Im not excusing shells actions in the aftermath but there were and still are more factors at work than royal dutch shell just being wreckless

seems odd to me that the sun has been powering this planet since the year dot, and yet we can't seem to take advantage of that...