Not even sure if that's how it's spelt, but there seems to be lots of presumably Government spun positive news in the media surrounding it, I wondered if it had been discussed here and if there were any experts. It seems the Blackpool earth tremors have been forgotten or ignored in the quest for geo political fuel benefit, but I can't help but feel a bit unsettled about the whole process, what's everyone else's view?
Anyone who's promoting a higher level of consumption over a reduction has the wrong end of the stick.
After watching [url= http://www.gaslandthemovie.com ]Gasland[/url] last year, I am not a fan.
Dissapointed that this isn't a Battlestar Glactica thread...
It seems the Blackpool earth tremors have been forgotten or ignored
...or put into perspective. [url= http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/news-analysis/fracking-induced-tremors-are-extremely-rare-says-report/1010791.article ]...this (seismic) activity is also comparable to activity caused by Britain’s substantial mining operations in the past.
[/url]
I believe that further investigation has shown that the Blackpool earth tremors were nothing to do with frakking, but actually....
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over-enthusiastic hen party activity
Minor tremors are the least of our worries. The real concern is the huge pollution from pumping millions of gallons of toxic chemicals into the ground, through the water table and then storing the waste in big pools on the surface....
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😀 at binners
And thanks to that stupid TOWIE program... that a sight I regularly see in sunny Brentwood .... Grrrr
Can't walk down the high street without hearing stupid northern birds... get back to Blackpool you stupid cows.
Sorry back on topic
Less reliance on middle east oil can only be...all things being equal... a very good thing for the world.
Gasland was a brilliant documentary but...
The issue of contaminating the water course and being able to set fire to your water really can't happen here.. there can't be many who get their water from wells or natural sources and the water remains un-treated.
I've been over to Pennsylvania where they have been fracking for years. There are those who love it.. its been great for business. There are those who hate it, a young mum who was close to death because of watercourse poisoning, a man who set fire to his water for us.
I'm fairly sure Fracking caused the problems with the water but as I said I really don't think it could happen here.
The earthquakes in Blackpool, well again Fracking may have been the cause, it may not..
However we can't put up windfarms, we can't build nuclear power stations, we can't mine anymore coal. coal fired power stations are being De-comissioned as they are pumping out tonnes of co2.
Its getting to a stage we need to work out whats the lesser evil to supply us with the energy we need.
Shale gas would be worth billions to the economy, we need to work out if its worth it...
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makes perfect sense to me to pump chemicals into the ground to contaminate the ground water. It is not as though anyone actually drinks the stuff is it.
I wouldn't dream of even using the stuff for washing, for that i make do with Evian, thought i would do my bit and make some sacrifices what with the econmomic climate.
@MartynS, i think you might be surprised how many people are on boreholes, how many farms extract water for crops, for animals etc. This is before you consider the level of extraction in some areas to supply for human consumption.
Question is where is the gas and where are the abstraction sites. This i dont know.
Isn't this the same technology that's created boom towns in South Dakota and Oklahoma - hydraulic fracking for natural gas and - since the gas price has hit the skids in the US - unconventional crude oil?
I guess it is, which begs the question why the US seems to be so happy with it and why, apparently, all the strippers from Las Vegas have made for Williston, South Dakota, because the frakking guys pay muchos cash and the Las Vegas guys are broke.
I'm all about the human angle, me.
Gasland was a brilliant documentary but...
Documentary is stretching it a bit, enetertainment show maybe.
To put it in perspective, the USA, the nationalistic embodyment of a culture built arround car's and petrol will be a net exporter of energy by the end of the decade, and that's mostly down to shale Gas.
When it comes to gas supplies I think we need to be looking at who we're presently getting it off, and their views on using their plentiful resources as an [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/new-cold-war-in-europe-as-russia-turns-off-gas-supplies-1230036.html ]economic and political weapon[/url]
Do we really want our energy supplies entirely dependent on the old tiger wrestler
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He's bonkers!
footflaps - MemberMinor tremors are the least of our worries. The real concern is the huge pollution from pumping millions of gallons of toxic chemicals into the ground, through the water table and then storing the waste in big pools on the surface....
Maybe you should spec them a waste containment site. Based on your shed it should just about be up to the job for the next few hundred thousand years 😉
Water contamination is a bit of a red herring. Lets be honest. They're doing it in Lancashire FFS. Its not like we're short of water, is it? 😉
Mrmo,
I have no idea how many here are on boreholes here.. to have a fracking site near one seems to be bad news.
However Having a fracking site near a town which is on pumped, treated water doesn't seem to be a problem
The other angle is the traffic it generates, hundreds of tonnes of sand, chemicals and water are needed. In the States where we were that was all trucked in.
Camo
Yep its created boom towns in really odd areas, it was described to us as the new gold rush..
Fracking wont cause any pollution / contamination problems that cant be cleaned up, if required.
Fracking wont cause any pollution / contamination problems that cant be cleaned up, if required.
As a general rule its better to avoid polluting in the first place. You can mop up carcinogens and bury them, but you can't undo cancer once you've given it to the local population through water contamination.....
Footflaps you are building a garage with the carbon footprint of a medieval village! 🙂
I agree footflaps, but the clean up will keep me employed. - It would be interesting to hear the Local Water Authorites comment on the drinking water quality issue
"you can't undo cancer once you've given it to the local population through water contamination..... "
Even less chance of undoing countless deaths of our own people, let only others, in the Oil Wars.
The water table only gets polluted if you screw it up. I'm sat above a polluted water table right now, due to petrol contamination(Buncefield), should we ban all Petrol use in the UK because of this?
should we ban all Petrol use in the UK because of this?
Possibly ban unsafe storage facilities.....
The water table only gets polluted if you screw it up
Unless it's heavily regulated and forced to do things safely, the oil industry will just do it the cheapest way and pollute everything / everyone. The Tories are not known as lovers of regulation so will probably give the Oil industry carte blanche to do what it likes and let someone else sort out the mess down the line....
That very cynical Footflaps. They were saying on Five Live this morning that senior Tory grandees are investors in Cuadrilla - the company responsible for the fracking
I'm sure they've done that purely to ensure standards are maintained. Famed as they are for their concern for the quality of life of northerners
Unless it's heavily regulated and forced to do things safely, the oil industry will just do it the cheapest way and pollute everything / everyone.
This would be the same oil industry where you can be fired for not holding the stair-rail in the office (not even on site).
And I'm not joking or talking about some small insignificant company, that's Shell!
If H&S has gone mad in any industry, it's oil & gas.
Unless it's heavily regulated and forced to do things safely, the oil industry will just do it the cheapest way and pollute everything / everyone.
Garbage!
I work in the oil and gas industry and I spend a large amount of my time ensuring not only that thing are safe but that they also meet and better the legally mandated environmental standards. A new project I put in has resulted in a water discharge with an oil concentration of less than 1 mg/kg (the test isn't accurate at figures lower than this). The legally mandated minimum is 30. Everyone is very very pleased that we can achieve such a low number.
I get very annoyed with people who think they know what goes on in this industry in the UK and spout drivel like this.
Not sure about getting fired from Shell for that (at least for a first offence) but you would get a talking to. Don't forget the lid on the coffe cup either.
I'm sure there will be pollution of the groundwater and land around the drilling sites. Unfortuately this would not be uncommon for any 'industrial process'. If this pollution will manifest itself as contamination and pose a significant risk / problem before it can be cleaned up is the question which needs answering.
I'm all for it, potentially huge source of energy and it if does cause an environmental nightmare it's nowhere near me.
Tinas, gonefishin, must also remember to reverse park when you arrive in the morning.
Have heard of stearn warning for all of the above in all of the big oil companies.
Hold the handrail when on the stairs.
That's so much of a habit now that I always reverse park wherever I go. It is actually the easiest way of parking.
gonefishin - your mob aren't looking for safety engineers are they?
[i]If H&S has gone mad in any industry, it's oil & gas[/i]
Yes, because what could possibly go wrong?
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Not sure about getting fired from Shell for that (at least for a first offence) but you would get a talking to. Don't forget the lid on the coffe cup either.
3 strikes and yer out
We're not even supposed to use paper cups anymore, the compnay issued everyone with a thermos mug with a lid!
must also remember to reverse park when you arrive in the morning.
Odly this is on our recomended list, but hasn't been enforced yet.
The stupidest thing I've seen was the H&S group stood in the foyer handing out chocolate bars to anyone using the lifts rather than the stairs as they were deemed to be being safe. Great, chcoclate for the lazy people!
When nuclear power was first mooted we were told that the power would be 'too cheap to meter'. Now we're told that fracking will reduce gas prices...
Will it f***!
gonefishin - your mob aren't looking for safety engineers are they?
Everywhere seems to hiring in Aberdeen at the moment. Get in touch with recruitment agencies and the like and they should be able to point you in the right direction.
Research is very divided on this. Some state that you can frack as close as 250m to a water source others state a minimum of 1000m whilst some think it should never take place. The UK has some of the strictest policies (I use that term loosely, as anything involving energy security can be relaxed) globally.
There's a new company set up in the UK called Cuadrilla who are drilling for unconventional gas/oil. They've been given the go ahead because they could supply up to 1/4 of UK gas demand! The government gets lots of tax and a somewhat stable energy supply. Fracking on a UK level is still small so it '[i]shouldn't[/i]' have the same effects or anywhere near the same effects as it did in the US.
The US is a different beast all together. In the UK IOCs apply for a licence to drill on the site so the government own all HC resources, therefore rules are stricter and more policies are in place. The O&G in the US on the other hand is owned by whoever owns the land so IOCs organise a contract. This tends to result in more relaxed laws with some detrimental environmental effects, especially on the scale that they take it too!
Anyway, North West Water are clearly not happy with the potential risks and have been undertaking huge studies to check the viability of the drilling. They seem to be happy and considering we have some of the highest water quality in the world I wouldn't be too concerned. Just glad I don't live there..
I could go on and on.. think I've bored people enough!
Yes, because what could possibly go wrong?
Precicely, everything could go wrong, the fact it doesn't would imply we're quite successfull when it comes to H&S. We measure the time between incidents in millions of man hours (or tens of million).
When nuclear power was first mooted we were told that the power would be 'too cheap to meter'. Now we're told that fracking will reduce gas prices...Will it f***!
Have a look at US gas prices since they started, and compare it to ours over the same period.
Yes I know. But this is the UK remember...
Also work in oil and gas industry : the natural gas in the water course is/should be nonsense. This only happens when fracture pressures near the water table are too great - after all if you think about it the whole point of fracturing is because the gas is locked into tight pores (shale), if you don't generate fractures that encroach into the water table you won't have natural gas in the water. Remember many of these wells can be 1,000's of ft deep, so it would be one hell of a frac job to do this. As for tremors etc I think the jury is out. Lots of big companies employ micro-seismic sensors in vast arrays placed over many square miles to pick-up the sounds of fractures in the formation. Could one of these be big enough to be felt at ground level? Possibly but I for one don't think so.
Something like 20% of the US gas now comes from fracing - that's 20% that is no longer bought from questionable places (where the money most likely gets used to fund various unpleasant activities) and is no longer shipped around the world. If this was emulated in the UK (at least for a short period in the immediate future) would enhancing domestic supply be a good thing? - probably yes....
Remember fracing has also been around for about 60 years in the UK so it's not new - it's just only recently that it's started to be used to open up previously economically un-viable resources.
In the long-term is it sustainable? No, of course not - any use of fossil fuels is unsustainable. Can it help fill a gap in energy needs until something better comes along - probably. The real debate isn't about fracing it's about nuclear and should we be re-newing it in a time when we're supposed to be reducing our reliance on fossil fuels?
Yes I know. But this is the UK remember...
Well it's traded on an open market, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're talking rubbish.
Everywhere seems to hiring in Aberdeen at the moment. Get in touch with recruitment agencies and the like and they should be able to point you in the right direction.
I was looking for work down south, but am beginning to consider aberdeen, just to get me out of where I am now!
This is going to be happening in my back yard.
Am I happy about this ? What do you think ?
Anyone want to buy my house? Anyone .....?
Being stressed, angry, worried and upset is futile, as this IS going to happen and there is not one damn thing about it that I can do.
Not a good day for me, but wtf do you care.
Sabotage?
ScottChegg
You do know there were som major reforms to how the industry works after that disaster?
Google the Lord Cullen report if you are interested.
Trail - An industry like that must bring 'opportunities' as well. Employment directly and / or in support sector. Rent your house out to house the inrush of engineers / drillers ?
Not a good day for me, but wtf do you care
But you do want the lights to stay working yes?
trailofdestruction - Member
This is going to be happening in my back yard.Am I happy about this ? What do you think ?
Anyone want to buy my house? Anyone .....?
Being stressed, angry, worried and upset is futile, as this IS going to happen and there is no one damn thing about it that I can do.
Not a good day for me, but wtf do you care.
The bigger question is, why do you care? You'll have gas to heat your house, clean water, and petrol in your car.
If the water companies are happy then what are you worrying about? If they were worried about it they'd stop it.
Sabotage?
Seems to be working in Nigeria, cut into the pipes, steal the oil, then sue for the mess.
Can it help fill a gap in energy needs until something better comes along - probably.
Not accusing Oliwb of this, but I've heard this argument used so many times to justify unsustainable energy sources (and uses!), everything from shale sand oil extraction through to biofuels. Call me jaded, but something better won't be coming along in time, and these kind of technological 'advances' are just putting off the inevitable - we need to cut down on our energy consumption.
The real debate isn't about fracing it's about nuclear and should we be re-newing it in a time when we're supposed to be reducing our reliance on fossil fuels?
I'm not sure there's enough time to sort out the Nuclear option anymore. I would imagine it's far easier to whack up a few "clean, green, low-carbon" gas power stations than a Nuke job. Could probably convert some of the old coal ones if push came to shove.
Now, I really can see both sides of the argument, and there will be benefits to this, especially with energy security and employment, which is badly needed in the NW.
Just as long as you don't happen to have a drill pad at the end of your village.
Still happy about that ?
I'm not. I'd sell and move tomorrow if I could, but the wife wants to stay for a few more years.
Time will tell how much of an impact this will actually have on the local economy in terms of jobs and money, and the environmental impact.
Until then, I'm working on my escape plan.
Well, I may just have a position at Cuadrilla so I'll do my best to keep it under control..
Anyway, North West Water are clearly not happy with the potential risks and have been undertaking huge studies to check the viability of the drilling. [b]They seem to be happy [/b]and considering we have some of the highest water quality in the world I wouldn't be too concerned. Just glad I don't live there..
Who told you that? I would read the draft water resources plan in April and ask yourself why no new sources any where near areas at risk of fracking activity are being considered.
So it's badly needed, just as long as it's in somene else back yard?
We've got small scale oil extraction in Surrey, and a great big TV mast in Swinley (which is probably far bigger than a land rig), does either bother me?
Who told you that? I would read the draft water resources plan in April and ask yourself why no new sources any where near areas at risk of fracking activity are being considered.
Because they already have enough and there's no point generating potential conflicts and problems however small the risk is? If a gas company wants gas out of the ground and a water company wants water, there's no point the water compnay trying to get water out the same bit of land if it can get at it elswhere.
Now, I really can see both sides of the argument, and there will be benefits to this, especially with energy security and employment, which is badly needed in the NW.
Local employment will be negligible the same as for wind power, everything is done by contractors who just move their people around with the work. When scout moor was built the engineers were all german
Hey, I may yet be proved very wrong. They could drill, have no real impact on water quality, with not much more increase on traffic on rural roads, create jobs in the area, and provide a real boost for the NW economy.
Maybe I'm being very negative, but... I still don't like it, and I'd rather not live right on top of it.
NIMBY.... maybe I am, but that's up to me, no ?
Like I said, time will tell, and there isn't much I can do about it anyway, so it's a bit of a pointless argument Mr. Spoon.
I can see the benefits, just not from my house.
Local employment will be negligible the same as for wind power, everything is done by contractors who just move their people around with the work. When scout moor was built the engineers were all german
Which need to live, eat, drink, shop somewhere. And those eating, drinking, shopping, living places employ people.
Because they already have enough and there's no point generating potential conflicts and problems however small the risk is? If a gas company wants gas out of the ground and a water company wants water, there's no point the water compnay trying to get water out the same bit of land if it can get at it elswhere.
How do you know they can get it elsewhere? Are you writing the water resources management plan? Obviously the permanent loss of viable aquifers is nothing to worry about. It's not as if the plan gets rewritten every 5 years and the DWI aren't tightening up on drinking water quality
I would also envisage that people will stop buying Lancashire produce as a lot of the private groundwater abstractions are for irrigation of food crops
Which need to live, eat, drink, shop somewhere. And those eating, drinking, shopping, living places employ people.
People still talk about the boom years locally, the local economy will be living of that gravy for years 🙄
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/dec/13/gas-energy-bills-renewables
they are proposing fracking where i live on the bristol channel
energy security for me would be to use the immense tides i see rolling in and out twice a day, every day, with almost absolute predictability. but oh no what we should do is use some semi-experiential tech to line the pockets of the petrochemical companies. because after all they have their fingers gripping the balls of our government so tight its important to do exactly what they say.
the post above questioning whether polluting groundwater would even be a problem since we are all on mains is the stupidest thing i have ever read. you seem to think that energy security is more important then food security. i for one would rather sit in the dark with water to drink and food to eat then be hungry and thirsty in front of a ****ing plasma tv.
Who remembers Frak?
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trailofdestruction - MemberNot a good day for me, but wtf do you care.
Well I care, which is why I thought I'd ask here, knowing there is a diverse range of folk with perhaps some inside knowledge.
I don't trust this Government, I don't trust them because they're arrogant and stupid. I also don't like the way the media is being manipulated, I'm on a real hate with the media and will often take an opposite viewpoint purely because of that.
I've found this thread quite enlightening however, my personal view on power is that they are not considering tide which we have an abundance of and it's regular, having lived a good proportion of my life in the shadow not only of Dungeness Nuclear power, but all the French stations on their coast, I guess it's not done me or mine any harm yet and given it's a known threat it is the lessor evil than digging up resources that will be denied future generations.
I know some people out there care, just a bit upset today.
Sorry, didn't mean to sound off.
Here's the BBC story, which actually appears quite objective.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20707574
this is an interesting article from 2009 showing just how much the government turn tale for a big wad of cash http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/1805031/coal-subsidies-outstrip-support-marine-energy
How do you know they can get it elsewhere?
*Looks at map*
Yep, you're really struggling for water sources in the North West aren't you!
The issue of contaminating the water course and being able to set fire to your water really can't happen here.. there can't be many who get their water from wells or natural sources and the water remains un-treated.
apart from the people that grow all the food we eat or the people who use it to process that food that was grown.
Why do people always think about domestic use first when it comes to utilities? it just doesn't work like that, we live in a world where all our lives are utterly dependendant on the whole.
Yep, you're really struggling for water sources in the North West aren't you!
Its tragic. On recent rides, I've wept as I survey the scorched earth, and parched fields around me. Its heartbreaking!
mrs works in the oil business
she spoke to someone at a confrence from caudrilla who was pretty certain that theyd caused the tremors at blackpool
was pointed out in one of the papers that both gideion and ed davey's constituencies are potential fracking sites, that could be interesting
was pointed out in one of the papers that both gideion and ed davey's constituencies are potential fracking sites, that could be interesting
Picton - I think most people think about potable water first, as it is the most sensitive receptor. Water abstacted for agriculture / process can be of 'lower quality'.
I had a tremour once in Blackpool
The potable water contamination from the fracking process is bollocks, water table and shale layers are seperated by thousands of feet of rock in most cases - they're going no-where near your water supply. There are of course risks associated with spillages from the pad, or when the chemicals are in transit, or whan the produced water are stored at surface, or if the well integrity is poor when it goes through the water-bearing strata - but Friends of the Earth and the rest have got no scientific evidence to support the stuff they spout on water contamination from the fracking itself.
If you can convinced the whole UK to turn down their thermostats and switch off their lights then you won't need fracking, or we could buy more off that nice Russian chap, or we could accelerate drilling in the Arctic before we have the technology to manage spillage in areas made inaccesible by sea-ice for over half the year, or we can keep shipping the stuff thousands of miles across the ocean from really politically stable regions, or we could admit that we really fancy hacking the nice shiney clean white Antarctic to pieces to find more oil and gas... Choices choices choices...
I had a knee trembler in Blackpool once
ill give you a choice helios, use renewable energy sources such as tidal which by the governments own admission will work out a sixth of the price when it comes to the consumer.
all they give a * about is money. dont you get that? this is the only bit of land we can live on and you want to let people who only give a * about money, who dont have to live here, do whatever they want with it? that is unbelievably short sighted in my humble opinion.
[i]Do we really want our energy supplies entirely dependent on the old tiger wrestler[/i]
We mostly import Noggy gas binners.
Do we really want our energy supplies entirely dependent on the old tiger wrestler
It'll be the Celtic tiger [grrr] before too long
We'll be importing cheap wind derived power off Alex Salmond during the night and selling them back premium rate nuclear derived stuff though the day.
Perfect deal!
TedTalk on natural gas.
Towards the end in the question and answer with the host it's mentioned that fracking has been going on in the USA since 1947 and 800,000 trouble free wells have been fracked.
[url=
ok so both of these proposals are on the same site.
tidal lagoon.
power for 100,000 homes for 100 years. no government money required.
http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/story-17211411-detail/story.html
unconventional gas extraction
power for 100,000 homes for 30 years. government subsidized (as is all power station run energy generation)
http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Untapped-coal-seams-deep-beneath-Swansea-Bay-investigated-British-company/story-12421127-detail/story.html
call me a nimby if you like but which would you want in a place you love?