[Closed] Fracking: Good, Bad or Ugly?

Channel 4 seem to have a fairly balanced perspective on what is currently known of the wider picture, but fail to mention the vested interests of much of the cabinet...

[url= http://www.channel4.com/news/fracking-shale-gas-hydraulic-fracturing-truth-myth-facts-uk ]http://www.channel4.com/news/fracking-shale-gas-hydraulic-fracturing-truth-myth-facts-uk[/url]

furthermore, some folk have already raised the points and I have to agree that our focus should be on

a) reducing our use of energy

b) seeking sustainable, non fossil (or nuclear) alternatives, although in sustainable employment and profit terms, these may not be so attractive...

in our terms of our children's children having a similar quality of life to that which we currently enjoy, [b]these factors are paramount[/b]

Im sory you owe me a new keyboard and an explanation why my job is so hard if theres no "proper regulatory control".

if you think deepwater horizon is an example of a 'happy ending'

Well its cleaned up, marine life is thriving and compensation paid. You asked for a happy ending, not a story of one of the hundreds of rigs out there on which absolutely nothing goes wrong and they end their working life in a scrapyard.

ne possible explanation is that you find your job hard because you're stupid and lazy. :p Are there any other possible explanations you'd like to advance?

Thats always possible, although I'm up at 6am to go to a review meeting for a bloody water pipe which youd think would be simple..........

How much money is being in put into Thorium reactors or Nuclear Fusion R&D compared to fossil fuel exploration and R&D?

The taxes corporations pay should be massively increased (look at the insane profits) and put directly into renewable research.

The taxes corporations pay should be massively increased (look at the insane profits) and put directly into renewable research.

The nuclear industry research is paid for by the governments, Oil and Gas pays for its own RandD, which department would you like to apply more cuts to to fund your project?

Its about a mile? from my house and lots and lots of other Victorian etc era houses. I wonder if any will subside?

When they built the M60 nearby alot of houses within 1/2mile in Sale moor subsided due to the water table being affected. Hmmmm

I just think it could be a very valuable resource. Environmental regulations are incredibly strict in the UK (I have to fill out pages of paperwork just to get permission to drill into an abandoned coal mine). Talk of pollution to aquifers, etc. I've never seen backed up by a reasonable scientific argument - the geology in which shale gas tends to exist isn't really used for drinking water supply in the UK, and if you ever do want to drill into an aquifer that does, again, there is a huge amount of regulation in place.
Once wells are set up I don't see it as being a huge blot on the landscape, no worse than wind turbines, pylons, etc. In terms of peoples houses being in the middle of fracking areas, I'm not particularly sure they know the difference, a high proportion of houses in the north east are sat above abandoned coal mines and would never know (bar the odd shallow mining exception not applicable to fracking). Plus there's the economic benefits of employment, tax income, etc.

In short this. The current daily mail scare mongering view is crazy. We can once again set a worldwide standard in how to do it properly and roll this out worldwide, provide a lot of jobs, much needed energy and finance and have an industry to be proud of.

What winds me up is that any view of a fracking site shows a rig on it, do people not realise what it costs to have a rig on site and that it will be there not a day more than needed. So say 6 months and from then all you have is a few pipes that you wouldn't see from the road if the field had a hedge.

Storage and containment of chemicals and drilling MUDs/flow back fluids will be extremely tight, environmental monitoring will also be crazy high.

And when it comes to water supplies being contaminated, well we don't all have hugely deep boreholes to feed personal supplies here as they do in the states as we have a slightly different geology and set up here, for a start we have no deserts

Imvsure the protesters will give up once HS2 starts and some trees need felling

Its about a mile? from my house and lots and lots of other Victorian etc era houses. I wonder if any will subside?

When they built the M60 nearby alot of houses within 1/2mile in Sale moor subsided due to the water table being affected. Hmmmm

Ah thats good. We wouldn't want to feel earth tremors. Imagine if fracking created earth tremors that could be felt- That'd scare people too.

I am for fracking. We will be burning fossil fuels for some time to come. Why not try to do this more efficiently and cleanly? The technology exists for this, however a lack of will from many quarters. As I understand though the setup for fracking is relatively straight forward and not particularly labour intensive. Don't know how manydirect jobs it will bring.

Northwind states 40% renewables generation as a success for Scotland. I like to think it is a success for the UK. Everyone in the UK pays a slice of the subsidy to ensure wind turbines are placed in the best location to meet renewables targets. ie Scotland. Scotlands energy bills I imagine would be astronomical if trying to achieve such high targets alone.

I have mixed feelings about fracking. I think that there are some risks to all forms of mining and fracking is no different.

However look at America and the benefits that they have found. The US is once again energy self sufficient. If they wanted to the US could transition almost every car to run on gas. This has lead to the US coming out of recession much quicker than the rest of the world and change the whole global geo-political landscape. An energy self sufficient USA is now negotiating with Iran and didn't in invade Libya or Syria, like it did for Kuwait or Iraq, due to it's worries about oil.

So for UK, fracking could give us energy independence once again, hopefully give us time to figure out fusion, but there are some possible risks.

the profits arent much bigger than any other industry as a percentage, theyre just big in absolute terms. And those profits pay shareholders who are mostly pension funds who see them as a good investment over the long term.
The nuclear industry research is paid for by the governments, Oil and Gas pays for its own RandD, which department would you like to apply more cuts to to fund your project?

So you think a non renewable resource should be exploited by corporations for profit without any commitment to alternative research?

Interesting thread.

I saw the 'Gasland' doc a while back, which certainly made me nervous about fracking. However whatever the respective POV's of everyone on here (and elsewhere) we have to recognise that the UK is going to face increasing problems with 'keeping the lights on'.

While there remains a significant amount of coal available in the UK even the most ardent anti-environmentalist (with a long enough memory*) wouldn't suggest coal power as the solution.

It's interesting that many of the anti-fracking views come from the left side of the political spectrum. It's certainly true to say that the way things are done in the UK via lobbying and civil service 'advice' (doesn't matter who's in number 10) the end result of fracking (or any other infastructure project) will result in massive profit and huge taxpayer funded subsidy for a select few involved.

This is also true of the proposed new nuclear power station programme (proposed taxpayer subsidy will run for 60 years).

Nuclear is one of the greener (even George Monbiot thinks so) solutions to our future power needs (cheap too!) but we object based on (mainly) political and environmental grounds. The latter reason is the biggest fallacy as the (French) channel and atlantic coast has more than it's fair share of nuclear plants; closer to Surrey than Sellafield.

We should be getting mad about the way successive governments have allowed us to become reliant on imported energy and that private businesses are allowed to milk subsidies (funded by the taxpayer) to provide UK based energy (be that nuclear, windfarm or fracking).

* see 'pea soupers', clean air act etc.

I don't think this is really a left/right argument. I'd suspect its quite a geographic one though. It'd be interesting for people, when declaring their support or opposition, to also state where they live. I'm guessing there might be some correlation

I see a lot of London-based politicians representing constituencies in the South East preaching the advantages (Grant Shapps on Newsnight last night, and Dave himself), safe in the knowledge that it's not going to be going on anyhere near then.

Then I see the people on the ground, living next to where its going to be taking place, voicing genuine, well founded concerns, equally as safe in the knowledge that they're about to be steamrollered by corporate interests and cynical self-interested politicians

Which takes us nicely back to Scotland with her 40% of all power provided by renewables, more than any other production method

Some big developments in various off shore renewables on the way too. Not all of them will come to fruition admittedly.

Hi Binners,

Based on a cross section of posts it looks like those anti wouldn't vote Tory, although I would admit it's not obvious that those pro fracking would either. In general the wider coverage of the debate (papers etc.) seem to divide on left / right lines with the odd NIMBY exception from the Mail / Telegraph.

As I said i'm probably more anti than pro fracking despite living in the SE. Neither left nor right leaning / voting as the government always gets in 😉

At my old place I had an uninterrupted view of an offshore wind farm. I have less of an issue with where these are built than the fact that you hardly ever see them turning / working. I didn't move because the wind farm got built BTW

I would agree that people who are opposed to developments in their backyard don't split on political lines but it's not hard to find someone living near a proposed development of any kind who will have 'genuine' concerns.

HTH

in our terms of our children's children having a similar quality of life to that which we currently enjoy,

we need to stop the over population of the plant, the increasing demand on basic natural resources and the gross consumerism that plagues us. However human nature isn't going to change, so our childrens children are pretty much screwed.

Fracking is a good interim solution that from an environmental and regulatory point of view will be very tightly monitored. Just out of interest how many of the Anti brigade actually have any proper knowledge of environmental permitting, are ecologists, geologists, hydrologists, consultants, EHO's etc... ?

Its just digging a bigger hole to bury our heads in, it will all end in tears 😉

I would agree that people who are opposed to developments in their backyard don't split on political lines but it's not hard to find someone living near a proposed development of any kind who will have 'genuine' concerns.

Agreed. But we're not talking about building a housing estate here. This is a vast project which will have enormous environmental impact. And it seems to me that the people who are evangelists for it all have a couple of things in common. Strong links to the energy lobby, and a geographical location nowhere near where its going to be taking place

I wonder...if the fracking sites were in a Tory MP's constituency would he wholeheardly support them?

This is a vast project which will have enormous environmental impact. And it seems to me that the people who are evangelists for it all have a couple of things in common. Strong links to the energy lobby, and a geographical location nowhere near where its going to be taking place

Does the same argument not apply to the construction of wind farms?

binners

I could give you locations in the UK of massive pipeline systems for gas terminals, oil storage facilities and power generation sites that may have had a huge visual impact at the time, but now you could ride close by and not even be aware of what they are or what they are doing. The problem I think is that a lot of folks get all misty eyed about the "countryside" and want to some how live in a state of stasis where nothing changes and it's all blue skies and fluffy kittens. Life and existence isn't like that and just sitting a corner saying no i don't like it, without offering a sensible, realistic, cost effective alternative is about as useful as a two year old having a screaming fit. It also helps if you have a decent knowledge of the technology and legislative framework before toys leave the pram as well, which is where a lot of eco zealots and NIMBYS fall over as they know they diddly squat other than what they can find in some half arsed hysterical ramblings 😀

Tory MP's and voters can be opposed to major infrastructure projects in their own backyard, HS2 is a good example of this. Some wind farm projects too IIRC

So you think a non renewable resource should be exploited by corporations for profit without any commitment to alternative research?

Then I see the people on the ground, living next to where its going to be taking place, voicing genuine, well founded concerns

I saw the 'Gasland' doc a while back, which certainly made me nervous about fracking.

I know that's 2 different posters, but you're alluding to the same thing. Gassland was for a large part stretching the truth, for example the bit where they set fire to tap water, IIRC they had that 'problem' before fracking. Minor earthquakes happen all the time, cars crash and leak petrol into the ground, people wash paint thinners down the sink, put disposable bateries in the bin, all of which will probably contribute more to polution than Fracking ever will. Heck there's a thread about Diesel cars on here at the moment where someone gets shot down for suggesting that removing the DPF, CAT and EGR is a bad thing as it increaces polution! Imagine the uproar if a drilling company announced it was removing it;s waste treatment plant as it was expensive to fix!

Where's Nikola Tesla when you need him...

Have a number of technologies been suppressed in the pursuit of profit?

Is the energy market manipulated to the detriment of the consumer (and planet)?

Does the same argument not apply to the construction of wind farms?

good grief how can you think that the environmental impact of fracking is comparable to a wind turbine?

Life and existence isn't like that

[i]Au contraire[/i], it's entirely possible to be clear-eyed & hard-headed about 'life & existence'... and also take exception to fracking & other forms of intensive extraction, or at least the arguments extended for them.

We should be learning to use less energy - point blank.

Because ripping up internationally endangered SSSI moorland to build access roads, then digging a big hole and pouring concrete into it isn't very good for the environment?

Along of course with big quarries to collect and refine rare earth minerals, impacts on raptors, etc.

build access roads, then digging a big hole

Even if groundwater contamination fears prove, er, groundless, fracking = lots of access roads.

fracking = lots of access roads.

Really?

Any particular reason why fracking needs to be done away from the existing road network?

Any particular reason why fracking needs to be done away from the existing road network?

By the same token, is the UK landscape like that of the expansive US?

Tazzy….. Are you seriously suggesting that peoples main objection to fracking is on the grounds of what it might look like? Dear god! You really have been paying attention to the debate, haven't you?

Yes ,the main protest at the moment is people complaining about the potential ruination of their majestic, scenic views. In Salford. 🙄

I live in what is 'the countryside'. I also live in what could be termed a 'post-industrial landscape', scarred with the derelict remnants of our polluting industrial past. They're the same thing. So I've not got any misty-eyed ideas of what does, and does not, constitute the 'countryside'. And here's the view from my bedroom window….

[img] [/img]

So I can't be accused of nimbyism either. I love the turbines. I think they add to the landscape. Fracking is about as far away from them as its possible to get. But thanks for your incredibly well informed opinion. A good counter to my 'hysterical ramblings' 😀

By the same token, is the UK landscape like that of the expansive US?

No, its much better - lots of little wooded areas where Fracking would have almost no impact on the surrounding area

ahhhh I didn't claim you were rambling hysterically, but I'm glad you spotted the titanic scaled irony in my post 😀

I do miss the days of the full on ranting loons, you could get them going for hours with a gently phrased quip and a bit of a head start

I'm sure I've no idea who you're talking about

*goes misty eyed with fond memories*

😀

Storage and containment of chemicals and drilling MUDs/flow back fluids will be extremely tight, environmental monitoring will also be crazy high.

Are there any examples anywhere of fracking being actually done in the way the pro-frackers say that it ought to be done in the UK? Or is that a unicorn that still has to be ring fenced?

It is incredible to see what has been achieved in Japan since the Fukushima. They have closed down almost all of their nuclear capacity but through a process of implementing intensive top down energy efficiency measures, there has been little reduction in quality of life.

Essentially we are so wasteful with energy there is a lot of capacity for improvement. But this will only be achieved by energy shortages and higher prices.

We probably do need some fracking to give us a gas stopgap, but my worry is that all the money spent capitalising those markets would be better spent on large scale renewables and associated infrastructure like energy storage (expensive).

Another concern about fracking is that we don't know the scale of the available potential reserves. My guess is that a lot of drilling sites will open, produce brilliant for a short while and then run out. This will lend to more drilling and more problems in other areas - all the while other countries will be investing in renewables and moving ahead. Leaving us stuffed when the short term gas runs out.

Also the financial markets that are hyping up the fracking opportunities in a way that is just stupid and blind to the environmental risks (local and global).

While wind turbines may not be ugly, if you had fracking you wouldn't see a thing apart from the clouds/mist and hills in that pic.

well if you look at the number of COMAH and permitted sites in the UK that have managed without a post apocalyptic wasteland breaking out every 5 minutes, it would maybe kinda indicate that the UK do sort of know what they are doing with regards the regulation, monitoring and enforcement. In fact it's one of the reasons why so much manufacturing of "interesting" chemicals and other fun things went overseas from the UK as our environmental legislation was too onerous. (an yes cheapo wages helped as well, but in the UK we apply abatement technology to the level where every other country just points and laughs) 😀

thisisnotaspoon

marine life is thriving

i'm sorry but i'm not sure how you can say that.
an ocean full of algae is not a thriving ecosystem, all of the top predators in the area are in serious trouble. bioindicator studies show the area has not recovered

EENEWS.NET "http://www.eenews.net/assets/2013/12/18/document_gw_06.pdf"

i was asking about reassurance that problems will be dealt with if they occur on an unconventional gas extraction site in the uk, and you have given me an example of the petro-chemical industry doing the bare minimum to not be prosecuted and leaving a whole area of ocean in disarray

It is incredible to see what has been achieved in Japan since the Fukushima. They have closed down almost all of their nuclear capacity but through a process of implementing intensive top down energy efficiency measures, there has been little reduction in quality of life.

Rubbish, they have increased LNG imports, in 2012 consuming 37% of the worlds LNG, making it the biggest user of LNG, followed by 2nd biggest user of coal and 3rd of oil. What's worse is their manufacturing industry is being hit by the increased energy costs of importing it all and hence, is becoming noncompetitive compared to it's rivals China, Korea, Taiwan etc. Worst thing to happen to Japan was turning off nuclear, and it looks like Germany will make the same mistake.

Question Time last night was packed full of lies regarding fracking, with the BBC propaganda wheels turning, you have to understand the facts and read between the lines to see the real truth.

In one example the tory rep kept repeating over and over that bills would come down thanks to fracking, however his own Lord Browne and chairman of Caudrilla has said bills would not come down.... and what Lord Browne Says Happens....

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/29/browne-fracking-not-reduce-uk-gas-prices-shale-energy-bills

I posted this before but please give yourself some time to view this doc The Truth Behind The Dash For Gas 2014

I least with wind farms we can take them down when something better comes along, and new solar is moving on a stride http://themindunleashed.org/2013/12/glass-sphere-might-revolutionize-solar-power-earth.html plus Fusion was even mentioned on Question Time last night but suppression of new/free energy has a long and checkered history....

Telsa Invented Wireless electricty transmission and it was suppressed by JP Morgan who owned the copper cable rights and wanted to put up pylons, Morgon funded Tesla but cut him off to focus on his more profitable schemes, this business model for energy is typical and affects every aspect of our world.

Is it that no-one has anything more to say, or are you scared of the implications of the world around you being rife with manipulation and skullduggery, fuelled by the all too powerful oil barons and banks that finance them, with the politicians and their executive consultancies tying in for healthy scraps of profit...

So the pro-fracking argument seems to include the point that "well, even if fracking in the US was an absolute environmental clusterfuzzle, we in the UK will do it properly".

Are there any examples anywhere of fracking being actually done in the way the pro-frackers say that it ought to be done in the UK? Or is that a unicorn that still has to be ring fenced?

Well back on the first page someone posted a link to an article which included a referance to a study which pointed to 1 contaminated well out of 200, so that's 199 examples of getting it done right. Hardly an environmental bit of a mess.

From what I have read a gas fracking well will stay in place for roughly 4 years. Then it will close down as it is not efficient to send the underground pipes to far. It will then move to another place above the same field and start again.
So once those with aesthetic problems about the eyesore understand this and with a judicious bit of bribery of the local population they will probably be happy enough. Obviously this does not apply to the antis as this is there latest hobby horse. If we can find them something else to whine about. Any ideas? Don't bring up fox hunting as we have already conned them into believing that doesn't go on anymore