Christ knows why you've come here for advice
STW is a good place for advice - you will get a range of opinions and some folk will have knowledge of the subject.
OK, really it's this - TJ has hit the nail on the head.
frustrateddad - Member
OK, really it's this - [b]TJ has hit the nail on the head.[/b]
Beginning to doubt the veracity of the OP now, he's clearly a fantasist! 😆 😉
cocaine is not addictive which is good.
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takes a fair old whack of it to get addicted, requires a daily habit over a long period, imo. I've had enough to know i'm pretty much immune to any additive properties of it. (And yes I'm able to tell the difference between good and the fake stuff.)Tom_W1987 - Member
cocaine is not addictive which is good.
I also know many weekend warriors that are far from addiction.
Cause it validated the real way I got rid of it (see post #6)
Um, ok. Was just a light-hearted pun, but carry on.
frustrateddad - Member
OK, really it's this - TJ has hit the nail on the head.
Beginning to doubt the veracity of the OP now, he's clearly an fantasist!
The thought did occur...
Tom - you claim to know about medical stuff. If you did yo would know cocaine is not addictive. this is a fact.
Source for that frankly ridiculous image?
You know I have worked in drug rehab? heavy cocaine users can stop overnight with nothing bar being alittle sleepy and irritable for a few days. heavy benzo users have fits and die without chemotherapy to taper them down ditto alcohol users. Methodone is MORE addictive than heroin. cocaine users require nothing to taper them down because its not addictive.
That hchart even has lsd as addictive - absolutly impossible - you cannot stay high on lsd for more than a few days as tolerance build so fast. probably fry your brain if you tried tho. acid casualties are easy to spot. As are heavy cocaine users and yes its damaging indeed but its complete "reefer madness" to claim its addictive
the indicator of addiction is are there withdrawal effects. cocaine has none bar the very minor irritableness
You really should find out about things before you mock on the basis of your ignorance and assumptions.
#tom - I suggest you use David Nutts excellent work on drugs to gain a little understanding
LSD is close to the bottom.
Pretty much every clinical study ever, backs up that chart showing coke as one of the more addictive drugs.
well first of all you cany identify cocaine from a pic on the internet
I work ina lab and could probably offer you 20 powders that would look just like coke
and as said above it could be cut with anything and/or a legalish high
that aside its obviously something dodgy, she sounds like shes in bad state regardless
she obviously needs some sort of help, whether she genuinely wants it and is willing to sort things out determines how you should proceed regarding the kids
It's got cannabis at 1.5 ffs. As a pretty heavy user (I enjoy getting stoned for weeks at a time) 1.5 is ridiculous! 😆Tom_W1987 - Member
LSD is close to the bottom.Pretty much every clinical study ever, backs up that chart.
I always stop it overnight, usually when my half O has ran out with little more than a bit of lethargy the next day, and go months and months without even thinking about it...
The graph is utter nonsense.
I would keep the kids at yours for now and speak to her and try and get things sorted, you really wouldn't want to send them back and for something to go really tits up and your regret that forever.
Im not talking about the drugs necessarily just sending them into a situation where she isnt coping. I Would try my hardest to keep social services out of it if possible (1st hand experience tells me they will make things difficult for all of you for a long time if they get involved).
If you say you are having them and she needs time to sort herself out then I cant see that being unreasonable.
Good luck
it also puts dope lower than alcohol...so it's getting something right...your own personal experience doesn't really count in the grand scheme of things....if you're trying to quantify relative addiction risk between substances.
Tom - complete bullshit. source for that chart please.
someone who has been taking large quantities of cocaine for a long time can stop overnight with no withdrawal. lack of withdrawal means its not addictive unless you use a definition of addiction that includes being addicted to playing bridge or birdwatching
I prefer a proper definition of addiction not some made up reefer madness nonsense
Am I wrong to think that people do get psycologically dependent on coke though?.Genuine question..
OP. I feel for your situation, good luck.
I'm willing to bet the graph was just made with someone standing behind a graphics monkey saying, hmm, lets stick this yin here shall we! 😆Tom_W1987 - Member
it also puts dope lower than alcohol...so it's getting something right...your own personal experience doesn't really count in the grand scheme of things.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60464-4/abstract
Lancet, lot's of other newer ones to back that up as well.
You can get psychologically addicted to anything. imo, most(obv not all) addictions are psychological and the physical aspect is little more than an inconvenience. The psychological addiction is more important and symptomatic of other issues, would be my take.TheDTs - Member
Am I wrong to think that people do get psychologically dependent on coke though?.
Tom - I have proper professional knowledge of this and have studied it a lot as its an area of interest to me.
someone who has been taking large quantities of cocaine for a long time can stop overnight with no withdrawal. lack of withdrawal means its not addictive unless you use a definition of addiction that includes being addicted to playing bridge or birdwatching
Really? lol
I'm not sure doctors would have to prescribe anti-convulsants then.
source for the chart please. it contradicts Nutts excellent work
However - you know what. your mix of arrogance and ignorance is pretty unpleasant. Pointless debating with someone who behaves like you
Spent the last hour on the phone with a good friend of hers - pretty much settled on the "constructive help" approach.
She's going away with her Dad and the kids for a few nights next week already - so he can keep an eye out for short term safety concerns, then they're with me for the Easter weekend anyway.
I'll be having a talk with her tomorrow night about all this - focussing on the "coping" stuff - my aim being they come to me for a few weeks after Easter - gives her a break and time to think. Maybe longer term (would be my preference).
We can't split the week 50/50 as we live over an hour apart (her choice to move so far away).
Some interesting reading here...
cool, good to hear you've decided on an approach, good luck with it all!
Good stuff frustrated Dad - I think thats the right approach here.
yes Tom- and it completely contradicts your assertions
" No participants required medication during the withdrawal and no significant psychological problems emerged. "
thats the last time I engage with you on anything. Bye
frustrated dad - sorry for allowing this troll to sidetrack your thread with my help. My apologies. I should just have ignored him from the beginning
Thanks all.
It's amazing what some time to reflect and bounce ideas off people/listen to responses can do to change ones' frame of mind.
This place rocks, it really does.
Big man-hug to everyone.
Edit - the tangential argument/pissing contest/whatever it was just made me smile. Reminded me how easy it it is to get drawn into irrelevant conflict.
I have a Phd in Crackology, so know everythin about drugs... um... shizer it's April the 1st 8)
No it doesn't TJ - a lack of medication needed in ONE study and a lack of SEVERE psychological symptoms is not evidence of cocaine not causing withdrawal symptoms or addiction...like you assert.
Telling people that coke isn't addictive, is patently bollocks. That doesn't mean I don't think people should have the choice to do it though, I'm of the opinion that people should be completely free to choose whether they want to stick their fingers in plug sockets or gargle on buckshot as well.
cocaine is not addictive which is good. Nor is amphetamine. Synthetics? No one really knows
Having taken lots of both, I feel qualified to pass judgement on this.
Amphetamines can be highly addictive - at one point in my life, I couldn't go to the cinema without having my speed fix - going to the cinema was pointless anyway, as I wanted to be elsewhere.
The addiction is more psychological though, not physical so much.
Coke is purely pscyhological, but the feeling that you need some at the weekend, or a night out can be quite controlling - after so much, you generally get a bit fed up of it and can quite easily leave it alone.
Of all the drugs I've taken and knowing how much you feel it's destroying your body I'd rate 1-5, addiction/harm
Alcohol 4/4
Tobacco 5/4
Speed 4/5
Coke 3/3
Ecstacy 1/4
LSD 1/3
Marijuana 2/2
Caffeine 2/1
Ketamine 1/3
Prescription painkillers 2/2
I'm not sure that you can clearly differentiate between physical and psychological dependency, psychological changes are almost always underpinned by neurochemical or structural changes in the brain.
But your personal experience would seem to roughly correlate with some of what the literature is saying.
Simples - alcohol for example, having night sweats, inability to sleep, itching when abstaining, suggests physical dependancy (although there's an element of psychological), despite not 'needing' a drink in the morning.
Chemicals - the feeling that you need some for a night out, or just because it's the weekend, yet not being particularly bothered the rest of the time, suggests a primarily psychological addiction
Upon reflection now, I'm putting my £5 on this being utter bobbins.
anyone who wants to know the real truth about recreational drugs shorn of the "reefer madness" hyperbole I recommend Professor David Nutts work
https://profdavidnutt.wordpress.com/page/2/
Tom - I note you still did not give a source for that graphic which contradicts Nutts work
On cocaine its important to differentiate between it and crack which is a chemically modified form of cocaine with very different properties
Leaving aside the substance issue, you will need to tread v carefully with the children issue.
The andecedants of this split arent in the public forum, but therse things are nearly always bitter and sad.
The children can be seen and used as currency, possession and control of this currency can give one parent a lot of power over the other. Your wife may strongly resist losing control of the kids as they become a basis for power over you or finances, or just generally getting her own way. They can also be used in a punative way by denying access by one parent to another.
Just my thoughts from a v difficult divorce. My ex was a semi-functioning alcoholic, and despite crazy violence visited on me when she had been drinking, it was impossible to reason with her and get her to do what was best for the kids. She used access to them as a weapon and a 'cash machine' to fund her life. She didnt actually want the kids, but she knew i did, so they became a weapon.....
Tom - I note you still did not give a source for that graphic which contradicts Nutts work
Wasn't that in the Lancet article but hidden behind a paywall? Remember just because we can't see it doesn't mean it's not there!
Tom - I note you still did not give a source for that graphic which contradicts Nutts work
Just searched it for you.
It's from:
Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse - Prof David Nutt, Leslie A King, PhD, William Saulsbury, MA, Prof Colin Blakemore, FRS
That image appears to be from here
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The numbers appear to come from the last few pages of this report
Which given it is a house of commons report may have some bias in how they want drugs classified
or maybe not, who knows
actually, the report is probably a bit naughty. The table in it gives the mean value of various 'dependancies' including pleasure, psychological and physical dependence. Cocaine gets such high value by being having high pleasure and psychological dependence even though the physical dependence is very low at 1.3. Pretty much as people on here have been saying
Full numbers here https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/Vespiary/talk/files/6416-615_Pharmacology_Therapeutics_NUTT_Rational_Scale_Harm_Drugs_Misuse07ea.pdf
i hate averages
Junkyard » its not simply they take drugs ergot they MUST
Trippy, dude.
So the data for Tom's graph, which tj is convinced goes contrary to Dr Nutt's view actually comes from a paper co-authored by Dr Nutt.
Never mind the coke, someone's on crack.
yes, but it shows why infographics aren't always as helpful as they purport to be
Tom - I note you still did not give a source for that graphic which contradicts Nutts workJust searched it for you.
It's from:
Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse - Prof David Nutt, Leslie A King, PhD, William Saulsbury, MA, Prof Colin Blakemore, FRS
I've just spat coffee on the new carpet
Well guys, you spotted it.
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Trippy, dude.
😆 and 😳
Ergo
