Forum menu
I was reading something a few months back (can't remember where) to the effect that Horner and Newey both have "co-existance" clauses in their contracts. I'm not sure what the purpose of these clauses are, but got the impression that they, sorta, tied Horner and Newey together in F1...which would provide a lot of leverage for Horner and a lot of risk for Red Bull HQ.
Anyone know anything about this, or am I imagining it?
I’m not sure they are tied to one another - just that they have clauses that if one leaves the other can with no exit penanlty.
I can’t imagine they come as a pair.
So if Horner left, Newey could leave and follow him but doesn’t have to.
BBC News - Christian Horner: Jos Verstappen says controversy 'driving team apart'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68461379
Front page news on the BBC
Apparently there's been a fall out between Horner and Helmut Marko, as well as between the Thai and Austrian owners of Red Bull. It will be interesting to know the details, once it is all done.
There must be another layer to the onion here if the Verstappens are threatening to leave if Horner stays. I can’t imagine Jos at least would stick a enough of a flag in the moral high ground to walk away from the most dominant car the formula’s ever seen.
I was reading something a few months back (can’t remember where) to the effect that Horner and Newey both have “co-existance” clauses in their contracts
Joe Saward said a few weeks back that it is "believed" that Horner and Newey have those clauses in their contracts. Whether Newey would follow Horner is another question though, he's not young enough that he would want to walk away from the team he built and start again.
Red Bull have got to really, really love Horner if they keep him over Max.
But where would he go? Horner and max aren’t the people who make the car. Could max in a Ferrari or a Mercedes beat Perez or Ricciardo in a red bull?
If this were a play my guess would be that Jos, or someone he’s close to wants horner’s job. Even though, it would be a brave bluff to suggest you’d give up the fastest car if there wasn’t a management change.
"If this were a play my guess would be that Jos, or someone he’s close to wants horner’s job. "
Helmut Marko?
I remember mentioning that I wondered if the death of Dietrich Mateschitz would be the end of Torro Rosso/RB/VCARB. The power struggle now looks more like it could rip the whole thing to pieces if someone doesn't get a hold of it
Thing is; I think that Jos' comments;
"It cannot continue this way, The situation is not good for the team and is driving people apart."
Are pretty much right*, It can't continue. I'd have thought there's now folks at RB who have a completely different opinion of the boss, and its just a matter of time before either RB self destructs or Horner goes.
*never thought I'd agree with Jos about anything!
Captions please!... 🙂
[img] 
[/img]
does anyone actually know what the original falling out with Jos was? I mean max has been clear no1, the car is fast, wtf more does he want!?
There's a bit of history here - need to translate the page and it reads a bit funny, but it makes sense!
wtf more does he want!?
Absolute control of the team that employs his son. Why employ (read; pay) some-one else to do that job, when you can have control over all of it.
https://twitter.com/GrandPrixDiary/status/1764579781109076190?t=w12_HL1Yg0GlYyyOx7K52w&s=09
Not sure this will work...
does anyone actually know what the original falling out with Jos was?
My guess is that it's been simmering for a long time - Max disobeyed team orders to let Perez through in Brazil, maybe in retaliation for Perez crashing in Monaco qualifying. I don't think Max has the personality to let things go and move on, and Jos is even worse. There was also the Nelson Piquet racism scandal - Max is dating Kelly Piquet so Horner saying that Nelson wasn't welcome around the Red Bull team may have annoyed the Verstappens. That's obviously speculation, but I doubt that it was just one thing, more likely just something that's been smouldering away for months or years.
Thing is, I'm sure Merc would love to sign Max as a driver, but they won't want Jos hanging around causing friction. If Merc did sign him, I can't see Merc giving him as much leeway as Red Bull did. Ferrari don't have an open seat and I can't see him going to McLaren or Aston Martin. Audi would be a big gamble and none of the other teams look like they will be contenders anytime soon. Jos may have overplayed his hand here.
does anyone actually know what the original falling out with Jos was?
I think it was Marko that forced Horner to give Verstappen a go in the car all those years ago, Horner wasn't sold on him as a very young driver, and I think it's caused tension ever since. Plus Horner wants what's best for the team - I don't think he'd care is Perez (or who-ever) took the championship; whereas Jos wants his son to be the focus of that (obviously) I think that causes some issues.
Sorry for interrupting the Horny Horner discussion, but just came across this on twitter.
Take a moment to enjoy this nearly perfect lap by Bobby K at Suzuka
ps. keep an eye on his left hand! 👀
https://twitter.com/_moraa17/status/1764344949993070749
I think I remember hearing that there has been some friction previously with the Verstappens about not prioritising Max enough at Checo's expense, so the above comments might be spot on
keep an eye on his left hand!
The F Duct?
I get the feeling that Jos has overplayed his hand. I for one will be very glad if he becomes persona no grata in F1 from now on.
Extract from his Wiki entry:-
After a 1998 incident at a karting track in which a man suffered a fractured skull, Verstappen and his father, Frans, were found guilty in court of assault but were each given a five-year suspended jail sentence after reaching an out-of-court settlement with the victim.[34]
In December 2008, with the couple effectively separated, Verstappen appeared in court in Tongeren, Belgium, charged with assaulting his wife, Sophie Kumpen.[35] He was found not guilty of assault, but guilty of threatening Kumpen in text messages and of violating a previously issued restraining order. He was fined and sentenced to three months probational, suspended prison sentence.[36]
On 29 November 2011, the media reported allegations that Verstappen had assaulted his ex-girlfriend; Verstappen claimed to only have had a discussion with her.[37] In January 2012, he was arrested on attempted murder charges following accusations that he drove a car into his ex-girlfriend in Roermond,[38] but released two weeks later after the charge was withdrawn.[39]
A truly horrid individual.
slowoldman
The F Duct?
Exactly, the stones on the guy to be going through 130R etc with one hand on the wheel and the rear wing stalled!
One handed you say - most of a lap used to be one handed!... 🙂
Yeah, controlling an F1 car would be hard enough with both hands on the wheel i reckon, without having to contend with a gear lever as well.
I’m a professional driver, but I’m under no illusion about handling one of those beasts.
those guys are on a different level to us.
Speculating on the above, but if Horner and Newey can/do leave would Newey go to Ferrari to give Hamilton/LeClerc something better to use?
The F Duct?
The backing on his left glove is also different to the right.
The scarcely believable irony in all of this is how it seems that Horner could in some ways be the only one to come out of this with any sort of dignity.
would Newey go to Ferrari to give Hamilton/LeClerc something better to use?
I would imagine he would want a great many assurances written into his contract, and a massive cheque
Newey go to Ferrari
Or would he leave F1 and the teams gradually return to a more even performance level?
Can't see Newey leaving Red Bull, Horner there or not, he's got unlimited resources, the car is way ahead, and they can concentrate on next year's car earlier than the rest of the field.
I'm pretty certain that should he go Red Bull have someone there ready to take over, unless Newey takes the whole design department with him.
"The F Duct?"
I thought we were trying to change the subject
"The scarcely believable irony in all of this is how it seems that Horner could in some ways be the only one to come out of this with any sort of dignity."
I know, right?!
You can't polish a turd, but you can stand it next to Jos Verstappen
And another bit of scandal thrown into the mix!!... 🤣🤣
[b]Mohammed Ben Sulayem: FIA President under investigation for alleged attempt to interfere over F1 race[/b]
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68465516
ye gads. F1 seems to be an experiment where you create a moral vacuum and then attempt to fill it with money.
Red Bull have got to really, really love Horner if they keep him over Max.
It's not what you know...
Or who you know. It's what you know about who you know
the-muffin-man
Red Bull have got to really, really love Horner if they keep him over Max.
Quick, but toxic - especially with his dad around. I'd get shot but then I can't stand him.
Don't forget Newey had a dabble with the Americas Cup a few years back. He's obviously amenable to exploring new things to win in, and perhaps money.
Not sure money is still the motivator, a way to keep score but not a motivator : His net worth is estimated to be a staggering $50 million, a testament to his success in the world of motorsport. As a key figure in Formula One, Newey is handsomely compensated for his expertise and contributions. He earns an annual salary of $10.2 million, making him one of the highest-paid individuals in the sport.
I think amongst designers Newey is unique in that I don't think he's got day to day responsibility for the car, and nor does he want it, he guides the team of designers fo'shure, and Red Bull I think is pretty unique in that way, as much as Horner has moulded the race team on the track , Newey has moulded the engineering team to what he wants. I think he'll end his F1 career there.
The red cars are always tempting though - can you really say you've "done" F1 unless you've worked for Ferrari?
I get the feeling he's more garagista but who wouldn't relish the idea of turning Ferrari into a properly competitive team again?
I would imagine that Ferrari has offered him any number of opportunities and bags of cash over the years. Here he is, still at Red Bull. In his book he's said always wanted something like the set up that he has now, and while this set of regulations plays to his strengths, I've no doubt that F1 will **** about with them to get rid of RB's advantage in the same way it did to Mercedes a few years back. What he'll do then is anyone's guess.
The red cars are always tempting though – can you really say you’ve “done” F1 unless you’ve worked for Ferrari?
I get the feeling he’s more garagista but who wouldn’t relish the idea of turning Ferrari into a properly competitive team again?
The dream role for someone creative and technical is one where there is somone who will protect you from all the political bullshit entirely, and keep the money coming in. That's what Horner does (/did!) well at RB. I think he will be verrrrry wary of jumping to Ferrari, which is politics central.
More likely he'll sack the whole thing off and sail his new yacht* https://oysteryachts.com/new-sailing-yachts/oyster-885/adrian-newey-building-my-oyster/
* not that my recent F1 predictions have a good track record 😂
I read or heard somewhere (probably Andrew Benson) that Newey has twice before come very close to signing for Ferrari