[Closed] Forced demotion in work

Are the head and teachers offering to take a hit as well?
Has your GF asked them to share the pain?

Union will probably advise and local rep may represent but nothing that costs the union money ie full time reps or legal advice. ( depends on the good will of the local rep)

If she is being salary protected for 3 years thats a decent deal.

However basically they cannot do this without showing good cause. Its a change to her terms and conditions of employment without consent - effectively breach of contract

Would her responsibilities decrease?

Academy school by any chance?

One thing to be wary of, is she on a permanent contract or contracted on a yearly basis? I did a period as a school governor and one of the things that wound me up was that the other governors all thought that employing the TAs on 10 month contracts that finished at the end of the school year and restarted in September was a brilliant wheeze and allowed much needed flexibility, while I thought it was a diabolical way to treat excellent staff who were made to feel perpetually under threat. If she is on a permanent contract and has been so for many years then don't sign anything and get union/legal advice. Also need to check if this reduction in salary will affect any pension arrangements particularly if in some form of public service final salary scheme.

No change to responsibilities... her concern is that if she accepts the demotion is it effectively starting a new job? So if redundancy is offered in future is she last in? She's that sick of the way its being handled she's be happier looking for something new😥 thanks guys... not academy tj

Ask them (in writing) what will happen if she says no?

They might scree up and give her evidence for unfair dismissal.

What grates with me (similar happened with my wife, they knocked 8 TA's down to 2 hour contracts in a poor performing school), is that they'll happily utilise the higher level of skill but not pay for it. My wife has QTS and was constantly asked to fill in for teaching staff who were absent and she refused as she was they weren't willing to pay the extra for it and there was no "foot in the door" for future roles. When the 8 TA's were told about the cuts to hours, 4 left within a week and the others found new jobs within a month. My wife now works in a private nursery and loves it. Still working with kids, paid the same and less pressure.

Not heard of this with teaching assistants but happens to teachers quite regularly in the reorganization of departments. If depts are combined one dept head becomes surplus and goes back to being a main grade teacher. 3 year conserved salary is usual in this case. I teach in Scotland though so often different.

How does the banding work? If it's mainly experience / time in job based then surely she's got a complaint on those grounds as that hasn't changed. If she was to go elsewhere would she walk in at band 6 or would she need to work up again?

Whatever the circs as others have said, it's a shitty way to act for **** all saving. Get the union right on it.

This is happening more and more, we have had two people at work who have been through similar (private sector).

I joined a union about a year ago and now advise others to do the same.

unfortunately joining a union AFTER you get an employment issue does not mean that the union will represent you. YOu are relying on goodwill from the local rep.

However from the details you give she has a strong case. Certainly without a reduction in responsibilities they should not be downgrading her

She needs proper advice tho.

Slightly playing devils advocate (but I have also seen it happen)

What is in your partners job description that isn’t in the Band 3’s or what can she demonstrate she does above and beyond what they do ?

Over the years all jobs appear to get banded/grades down and you get the odd person who has retained their old grade from when they started many years ago.

To me it sounds like they are following’reasonable’ process. You partner is going to have to justify what else she is doing above others on a similar role

TJ +1.
That sounds unfair to me but probably 21st century school-budget balancing, I'm afraid.
3 years to get another job imo. good luck.

Assuming points on the pay scale difference between band 3&6 would be experience. The written contract would be the same.

@FunkyDunc @onehundredthidiot Main difference between grade 3 and 6 is the responsibility to teach classes in the brief absence of the teacher, (one or two lessons not all day, grade 7 can do that).

There's other stuff too, but that's the main one. It's not just an age/experience thing.

. I teach in Scotland though so often different.

I have seen the same happen with teachers in England, 3 years to get a new job or as in one case I saw retire!

I expects its legal and given cost constraints on schools its understandable.

No change to responsibilities…

This is crux of it;

a) Is she currently being paid at grade 6 but carrying out a grade 3 role
or
b) will be carrying out a grade 3 role but with a grade 6 responsibilities.

the only way to deal with this is look at the job descriptions of the two grades and see if the new role she has been offered contains any of the Grade 6 rather than grade 3 activity.

a lot of schools have TA's on high grades who don't really carry out any of the higher grade responsibilities - they've been given rises over the years but not actually taken on additional responsibilities, so they are paid more than those doing the same job, basically.

At the primary school I'm a governor at, the Head and most senior teacher voluntarily took a pay cut to retain TA's when numbers on roll fell. Very unusual. Does sound like 3 years to seek an alternative.

this

Does sound like 3 years to seek an alternative.

and refuse point blank to do anything over and above the grade 3 role in that time

Does sound like 3 years to seek an alternative.

and refuse point blank to do anything over and above the grade 3 role in that time

Both points are exactly what I was going to say. I'm a strong advocate of "fight bastard with bastard," two can play silly buggers.

and refuse point blank to do anything over and above the grade 3 role in that time

But this really is a case of 'won't somebody think of the children'!

I am sure it would be difficult for anyone in that role just to take the money and stop caring about the children and it feels to me like the school are taking advantage of that.

But this really is a case of ‘won’t somebody think of the children’!

I am sure it would be difficult for anyone in that role just to take the money and stop caring about the children and it feels to me like the school are taking advantage of that.

There comes a point when you just have to stand up for what you believe in, and let the people making the decisions sort out their responsibilities in an alternative manner. See also nurses and firefighter strikes.

I am sure it would be difficult for anyone in that role just to take the money and stop caring about the children and it feels to me like the school are taking advantage of that.

That pretty much sums it up.

@whytetrash Ask the head if she and others are taking pay cuts, you know, for the sake of the children. If not then I'd be working to grade 3 requirements only, take the extra money and look for something else at my leisure.

Thanks guys... she regularly covers classes, covers first aid,trips away(with night time checks on diabetic pupil)lesson planning etc... her teacher is a right lazy sod from the sounds of it... cheers for the advice

Shes just joined union but unsure if theres a waiting period before they can advise…

Off topic but unions are only as strong as the members in them. Waiting until something happens before joining and seeking advice is not dissimilar to taking out insurance after an event and trying to claim.

I am sure it would be difficult for anyone in that role just to take the money and stop caring about the children and it feels to me like the school are taking advantage of that.

This is how UK state education functions

AA has it.

Thanks guys… she regularly covers classes, covers first aid,trips away(with night time checks on diabetic pupil)lesson planning etc… her teacher is a right lazy sod from the sounds of it… cheers for the advice

That's good, you're wife is utilised fully at her pay grade. Time to tell the head she can't have her cake and eat it...

I am sure it would be difficult for anyone in that role just to take the money and stop caring about the children and it feels to me like the school are taking advantage of that.

But it's not the TA stopping "caring about the children," it's the school.

If the TA was a "real" grade 3, one would assume that they were not yet qualified / experienced enough to perform the duties required of a grade 6 TA, n'est-ce pas? Therefore the school / teachers putting them in that situation would be the ones potentially putting the kids at risk and the TA would be negligent if they agreed to do so.

They're asking someone to perform a senior role for junior pay and frankly **** that for a game of soldiers. Reckon they'd get many takers for a replacement under that scheme if she left?

I've just put some figures around this.

The difference between grade 3 and grade 6 is about a grand per annum (gross). So in real money, assuming she works pro rata (ie, she doesn't get paid during school holidays) that means a drop in pay of about £50/month in three years' time. As cost-saving exercises go, it's not a very good one.

The whole thing is just offensive. I rather think my response would be "sure, go ahead, but what makes you think I'll still be here in 3 years if you do?" They should be happy with that, they'll get to save 100% then.

they’ll get to save 100%

or they just get to employ someone as a Grade 3 who's happy doing the job they're asked for at the wage being offered?

Bear in mind it also potentially screws up her CV for the next job if you take the three years as a very long notice period - she will be a grade 3 so really should put that down as her role for however long she keeps at it. Might affect how people look at your CV - what happened to drop from previous grade? Can she only got for grade 3 jobs now, etc.

Not a biggie, and obviously you could just say she was still G6 (though any reference letter from school might be interesting if they put the actual grade on...).

She will still be on grade 6 until the end of the 3 year transition period, and any contract or letter explaining pay scales will state this.

This happened to me 3 1/2 years ago when my TLR payment was cut in a "reorganization". As it happened, I wasn't too put out by it as I now can share the load of managing various courses but at the time was rather peed off!

Very strange, as a cost saving seems not worth the hassle. I wonder if other TAs have asked for a pay/grade rise because they also are covering classes etc.

Apologies hadn't realised that grades for TAs worked like that.
As above education works.on the principle that if you don't do it you know kids will suffer.were running short staffed and two of us are above contact time but the heid Yin's say it'll resolve in a few weeks time, can you not just do the extra? But without any easing elsewhere. Love a budget cut.

My wife was a teacher. Got made redundant on mat leave no less. Got an employment lawyer to help draft a letter and consult. Realised they had messed up the consultation so got a settlement . Different to your circumstance but worth a chat with a lawyer. PM me if you want deets of who we used.

This will need to take place through a restructure or job evaluation. This could be for the whole school or a limited part of it, admin, non-teachers, teachers etc. The documentation needs to be in place to highlight the rationale and the structure in place now vs how it will be. There will be an opportunity to interrogate it during the consultation phase. However it will be a consultation and will not necessarily be an opportunity to change things. But that can happen.

WCOLT has a point about procedure. There is a legally set out process with timeframes to be adhered to. You can be made redundant if on maternity/paternity leave. There is no default protection but the process of consolation must be fair and include all. To flip it, if there were protection then all employees who were not on maternity/paternity would be discriminated against.

3 years protection is pretty standard for teaching staff but not non-teaching. Two or even sometimes 1 year protection is more of the norm for TAs, so 3 years is pretty good and would suggest that this is particular to the local authority even if the school happens to be an academy. Most academies and MATs follow the standard local authority/national terms and conditions of employment. Burgundy, green and blue books are how they were referred to in the past and relate to the national agreements. The Burgundy book for example is teaching staff. Staff may have transferred under TUPE and therefore have legacy protection if the employer has changed - Local Authority to Academy for example. Regardless 3 years is good. A lot can change in that time.

My advice is to make sure that your GF is fully aware of the terms and conditions of her employment and how that would change moving forward. I would recommend being in a union. You never know when you might need them. Depending on how far down the timeline things have gone some unions may be reluctant to represent if not already a member. However some will. There are a number of options for TAs.

Thanks again folks, some really helpful stuff on here. I suppose the main issue, other than the kick in the teeth a demotion is after 20 plus years of faultless service 🙄 is that I guess no schools will be looking for a band 6 TA? So how realistic is finding a comparable job in this timeframe? She's also a right softie and wouldn't let the kids down so could well see her just carrying on as is and just being taken advantage of.....if she refuses to accept to down grade will they have to offer redundancy as they are effectively making the role redundant? she's that disillusioned with the way the senior staff are treating the TAs she is considering other options 😥 thanks again for the much appreciated contributions

No matter how good a worker you are, how loyal, how productive, if you work for arseholes, you get treated like shit.

Time for a new job.

Depending on the professional advice of course but:

Ask them what will happen if she refuses? Ask them about reduction in responsibilities, ask them why she has been singled out

Threaten them with a tribunal