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Well said wiggles. If I was growing up now my mum may have been someone reliant on a foodbank to support my brother and myself. I don't think that stripping someone of any shred of dignity first should be a prerequisite to using a foodbank.
Benefits can bring people down to nothing very quickly. A guy I work with (who does an excellent job) is still bitter about being sanctioned when on benefits for refusing to go for a job that cost so much in travel that taking it would put him in debt. If people like him are sanctioned the system is set up to screw people over rather than support them into work. He wasn't out of work long but there weren't many jobs around - we're up in Yorkshire and I remain to be convinced that the economy is growing.
As a fund raiser for the Surrey Care Trust (google is your friend) even during the labour boom (sic) and having a wife who has worked at a Guildford food bank for many years, I must say that there is some staggeringly misinformed BS on display here. Surprising from some if not others. But talking BS is easy, much better to actually do something about it. Sorry mini rant on late train home, but subject close to our hearts.
Plenty of ways to contribute
http://www.surreycaretrust.co.uk/wp/
Oh and the MTB is really rather good here too.
Well said wiggles. If I was growing up now my mum may have been someone reliant on a foodbank to support my brother and myself. I don't think that stripping someone of any shred of dignity first should be a prerequisite to using a foodbank.
Exactly, obviously in a perfect world food banks wouldn't need to exist, but the world we live in is far from perfect...
Too many selfish people who just think about what is best for them and not what happens to others, I don't wish I paid less tax, in fact I would happily pay more if I trusted to government to actually help people who need foodbanks rather than bailing out banks...
The goverment/mainstream press (same thing really) make it so easy for people to think that we have such a problem with people taking all our hard earned tax payers money and these people should be demonised for getting £60 a week to live on so they can sneakily sell the NHS through the back door to their tax dodging mates for a "donation" to their party.
The goverment/mainstream press (same thing really) make it so easy for people to think that we have such a problem with people taking all our hard earned tax payers money ....
It's worse than that.........food banks don't rely on taxpayers they rely on Christian charities and donations from kindhearted people. Oh it makes me so ANGRY.
Yeah, essentially people get annoyed at people getting money on benefits when actually the people who get them don't even get enough to get buy without relying on charity in a lot of cases. So you could argue that foodbanks actually save tax payers money as they are an excuse for the government to give people less money, just like tax credits give companies an excuse to pay shite wages as the government will subsidise them.
Prove me wrong if you disagree, explain to me about a couple of people you know who fell on hard times and the consequences etc
Wouldn't that just be an exchange of meaningless anecdotes?
We could bring back the workhouse .Bed and board in exchange for work but also give health help and education .
Wouldn't that just be an exchange of meaningless anecdotes?
Not really. For example I'd like to read what happened to wiggle above, circumstances, situation, measures taken etc. But its a lot to give out information wise about someone on a forum.
I can only base my feelings on people I've seen playing the system for years and years.
THM, Surrey Care Trust have been on my shortlist of places to do voluntary work with. Would you mind if I picked your brain about how they work before I contact them? Cheers
weeksy - MemberI've been there seen it a million times, brought up in tough parts of Liverpool until I was 26.
weeksy - MemberI can only base my feelings on people I've seen playing the system for years and years.
Food banks have been an issue in "tough parts of Liverpool" for years and years ? When did you first notice them ?
Or are you deliberately attempting to move away from the subject so you can demonise everyone who's fallen on hard times or are less fortunate than yourself ?
Reading this thread remlnds of the 80's Thatcher devided the country and the sons of Thatcher are doing it again its less extreame than the nazi's but the same basic tactic find a group or sud division of society to blame and viola!
Some interesting attitudes.
On a train in Kazakhstan a few months back I was trying to explain that in the UK wider families (non-immediate) do not often share their wealth. The local woman I was talking to was absolutely baffled by this. Seems that families in this part of the world always spread their money around - i.e. if you have a rich uncle he will support your parents, you and your siblings.
Conversely I have an uncle in the Rich List and you'd be lucky to get a tin of beans out of him if you fell on your arse.
Seems from some of the comments that there is a lack of trust. Why doesn't a scheme exist online or elsewhere (correct me if one does) whereby rich/willing & also struggling families register and 'marry up' i.e. help each other out directly? If I had a few quid I would happily sponsor a struggling family on the basis of regular visits.
If I had a few quid I would happily sponsor a struggling family on the basis of regular visits.
🙂 what, like they do with pandas and rare tigers. For only £8 a month you could feed the Surry family and recieve a magazine with regular updates. Sign up now and received a soft cuddly " poor person" toy.
On a train in Kazakhstan a few months back I was trying to explain that in the UK wider families (non-immediate) do not often share their wealth
Does Kazakhatan have a welfare system?
Not knocking your point I just wonder if there is no other option.
For only £8 a month you could feed the Surry family and recieve a magazine with regular updates. Sign up now and received a soft cuddly " poor person" toy.
You jest but if you donate to Shelter or The Trussle Trust you get exactly that from both of them, updates on impoverished people in the UK whose lives are made just a little bit better by help from charities.
Kazakhstan is a caring sharing society
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Reading this thread remlnds of the 80's Thatcher devided the country and the sons of Thatcher are doing it again its less extreame than the nazi's but the same basic tactic find a group or sud division of society to blame and viola!
Bit early for the hard stuff.......... 🙄
You jest but if you donate to Shelter or The Trussle Trust you get exactly that from both of them
I give to Shelter already but beyond a generic newsletter with the odd 'case study' I have no idea who the funds go to.
For only £8 a month you could feed the Surry family and recieve a magazine with regular updates.
See above.
Does Kazakhatan have a welfare system?
Not a very good one. Income tax is flat at 10%. VAT is 12%. This plus a history of famines has probably helped people take wealth redistribution into their own hands. I was pretty inspired by it anyway.
I give to Shelter already but beyond a generic newsletter with the odd 'case study' I have no idea who the funds go to.
Annual accounts [url= http://england.shelter.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/924416/2013-14_Shelter_Annual_Report_and_Accounts.pdf ]here[/url].
Poor people should only eat spaghetti and soup
Poor people should only eat spaghetti and soup
Quite shocking. I give it 2 years and IDS will be doing the same here, just after he insists all people on benefits can only go out in public with shaved heads wearing sack cloths as clothes.
spacemonkey - Member
THM, Surrey Care Trust have been on my shortlist of places to do voluntary work with. Would you mind if I picked your brain about how they work before I contact them? Cheers
I only really "know" ? the fund raising side of things and even then my main contact has recently moved in. So I can't really help on the "how they work bit" - other than everyone I met was charming and dedicated and like most funds short of shreddies.
I must admit that first fund raising started as a challenged because people don't naturally associate Surrey with hardship. But that is far from the case.
Not a very good one. Income tax is flat at 10%. VAT is 12%. This plus a history of famines has probably helped people take wealth redistribution into their own hands. I was pretty inspired by it anyway.
I can certainly think of one family in Kazakhstan that's taken the initiative in redistributing wealth around their family:
http://www.eurasianet.org/node/71431
http://studies.aljazeera.net/en/reports/2013/07/201371774242221773.htm
On a train in Kazakhstan a few months back I was trying to explain that in the UK wider families (non-immediate) do not often share their wealth. The local woman I was talking to was absolutely baffled by this. Seems that families in this part of the world always spread their money around - i.e. if you have a rich uncle he will support your parents, you and your siblings.Conversely I have an uncle in the Rich List and you'd be lucky to get a tin of beans out of him if you fell on your arse.
Seems from some of the comments that there is a lack of trust. Why doesn't a scheme exist online or elsewhere (correct me if one does) whereby rich/willing & also struggling families register and 'marry up' i.e. help each other out directly? If I had a few quid I would happily sponsor a struggling family on the basis of regular visits.
Nice idea....trouble is in the UK wealth is seen as 'bad' and you will be taxed on any gifts you try to make to relatives, taxed on capital gains, taxed on your death with inheritance etc etc....is it any wonder people cling on to every last penny and look for ways out of giving it to the government?!
For a more generous society we'd have to change our attitude to wealth....that isnt going to happen any time soon as the general gist from outspoken STW posters seems to be that more tax is good...and all this does is encourage people to hold onto their money.
I can certainly think of one family in Kazakhstan that's taken the initiative in redistributing wealth around their family
And with help from our very own champion of democracy and social justice and hero of the Labour Party hard-right :
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/24/tony-blair-advice-kazakh-president-protesters ]Tony Blair advises Kazakh president on publicity after killing of protesters[/url]
[i][b]"Tony Blair's role advising countries with poor human rights records has come under scrutiny again after he gave Kazakhstan's president advice on how to avoid his image being tarnished by the killing of 15 civilian protesters by police".[/i][/b]
Although to be fair to Tony Blair he doesn't necessarily support Kazakhstan's despot family, the unrepentant self-serving war criminal is only helping them because it gives him the opportunity to increase his own huge personal wealth :
[b][i]"The former Labour leader's consultancy, Tony Blair Associates, set up in the capital, Astana, in October 2011, signing a multi- million pound deal to advise Kazakhstan's leadership on good governance, just months after Nazarbeyev was controversially re-elected with 96% of the vote and weeks before the massacre".[/i][/b]
It's far from perfect that people are using food banks...
You're a politician aren't you?
Reading this thread remlnds of the 80's Thatcher devided the country and the sons of Thatcher are doing it again its less extreame than the nazi's but the same basic tactic find a group or sud division of society to blame and viola!
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deviant - MemberFor a more generous society we'd have to change our attitude to wealth....that isnt going to happen any time soon as the general gist from outspoken STW posters seems to be that more tax is good...and all this does is encourage people to hold onto their money.
I see, people like Tony Blair "hold onto their money" because of UK tax laws which need to be changed. Less taxation of wealthy people and they will suddenly become generous.
Well Tony Blair seems to be able to somehow struggle alright under the present conditions :
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11328929/Tony-Blair-cuts-his-tax-bill-despite-another-bumper-year.html ]Tony Blair cuts his tax bill despite another bumper year[/url]
Did it take a special effort to post nonsense like that deviant or did you just tap out the first thing that came into your head ?
Blair in Astana signing big contracts with corrupt regimes on the back of his international fame.
I guess Lance Armstrong beat him to that by two years.
I see, people like Tony Blair "hold onto their money" because of UK tax laws which need to be changed. Less taxation of wealthy people and they will suddenly become generous.Did it take a special effort to post nonsense like that deviant or did you just tap out the first thing that came into your head ?
The problem with trying to debate ideas with some people on STW is that they cant accept another point of view, they just cant comprehend any other view than their own....it seems to be an impossibility for them...and then the stroppy replies start.
When talking about lower tax, less punitive taxes, abolishing inheritance tax etc some on here cant help themselves but jump to conclusions about 'the rich'....any talk of relaxing tax laws seems to be immediately reduced to 6th form nonsense about giving tax breaks to millionaires....while some laws in that direction would benefit the top wealthy few it would also (IMO) create a shift in societal attitudes to money.
Case in point is my parents, my friends parents, most older people coming up to retirement i work with etc etc....these people arent rich, i'm from a family who have traditionally worked in the forces or medical backgrounds and who have been paid average wages all their lives. Most have gone on to put some savings away and own their homes....and all are making plans to avoid inheritance tax.
Why?....the easy option is to start slinging mud and label them all selfish (as i'm sure some of the keyboard warriors on here will do!)....or you could actually look for the reason or reasons that make ordinary working people seek financial advice on how to avoid tax....the uncomfortable answers you'll get however wont please some on STW so its much easier to blame 'the rich' for everything....almost everyone i've just spoken about feels they are over taxed for their average earnings and all without question feel that after spending 30yrs+ trying to clear a mortgage that it is a kick in the teeth to have the government help themselves to it in the event of their death.
Change the attitude that exists among working class people (not just the Blairs or 'the rich'!) and you'll get a fairer society where people are more open to charity, generosity, community projects....dare i say it but people might even be open to higher taxation for genuinely high earners...a senior Nurse or experienced Police Constable falling into the 40% tax bracket are not high earners....this is where the resentment comes from!
All my opinion of course, no stats to back it up...just the chatter that has been going on around my colleagues, my friends, my family etc in the lead up to the election....we're a very ordinary bunch which is why its so funny watching people work themselves into a lather about the election result and refusing to take the blinkers off....class war stopped years ago, the nasty men in top hats living on country estates make up a miniscule proportion of the country....when the general attitude from working age people who earn (on average) 20-40k is more aligned with the the model of small government and low taxation then you'd have to be daft to ignore this or very immature to reduce these arguments to being about 'the rich' all the time....sure some very wealthy people would benefit from a lower tax model but so would many many more working class people....and thats where your change in societal attitudes to money would come from in my opinion.
I've not come across estates of ordinary working class people (who ever they are)worth more than £650,000.00. I don't have a problem with IHT at all. With limited exception, for which their are reliefs and exemptions, it only catches those who I would perceive as rich.
I've not come across estates of ordinary working class people (who ever they are)worth more than £650,000.00.
You'd be hard not to be worth that much if you own a house in the SE.
Inheritance tax threshold is £325,000, loads of people in the South East fall foul of that despite never having been a 'high earner' at any point in their lives.
https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/overview
My little 'two up-two down' terrace in the South East went for £220,000....you could blame the bonkers property market (and you'd be right) but it doesnt detract from the fact that working class people on ordinary salaries feel over taxed and are actively looking for ways around it.
Therefore when someone on here talks about paying more tax it leaves a huge chunk of people cold....contrary to popular STW musings its not just 'the rich' that vote Tory, loads of people like me vote Tory because (one of) the alternative options banded around on here is one of more tax for everyone....no thanks.
£650,000 when aggregated between husband and wife.
Some people are less clever, they are usually poor ones.I bet the people using food banks still have TV, phone and internet though.
If you really do struggle as said above ditch the tv phone car and internet.I spent several years on income support and survived without any of these luxuries.
Maybe you would have got a job quicker if you would have had a phone and an internet connection, they're useful tools when looking for work.
Pretty sure a phone is a requirement these days, I don't think you would be allowed to claim benefit without one.
As for cars, don't see how anyone who's been on benefits for any length of time could afford to run one, insurance alone would make it an unfeasible expense.
Regards DD (Unemployed, no car or internet)
Happy or do I need to get rid of my phone, perhaps I should give up my flat and go and live in a doorway?
Happy or do I need to get rid of my phone, perhaps I should give up my flat and go and live in a doorway?
Do they not have a local poor house you could re-locate to? I think a diet of stale bread and gruel would be of great benefit.
I've worked in the voluntary sector for a good few years now, and met all kinds of people.
Met lots of people who were just like us - normal, healthy people with jobs/careers, families. But through accidents or severe mental/physical illness end up on the bottom of society.
A lot of us never imagine it could happen to someone 'like us'.
It could.
That's why a good, fair safety net is important to everyone, not just as an abstract concept. We don't have that anymore.
So examples of people not playing the system don't make any impact with the 'benefits claimants are scroungers and deserve to have everything taken from them' mindset.
And there are loads of people troubled by the idea of giving HMRC a percentage of the hard earned house price (did I say earned? I meant highly inflated by insane house price inflation, of which they only put in a tiny percentage*).
So, to solve this country's woes, we need house building. So much house building that the supply increase halts the upward pressure on house prices. So much building that kids can afford to rent and then buy houses. So much that people don't see their modest house inflate from tens of thousands of pounds in value to attracting inheritance tax. So much that if you're not well paid you can live cheaply without the government needing to top up your income (and if you're unemployed, housing benefit isn't the horrifying Daily Wail issue it's become).
House prices completely skew our economy, people spending so much of their income on homes ties up money that could be spent on stuff and activities in the non-house price economy and boost retail, manufacturing and services.
*this happened to me - in four years my London 64k house quadrupled in value - did I earn this? No! Should I share my good fortune in some way - yes. Have I tried? Well yes, but that's another story.
IHT used to be £325k as you couldn't double up, my ex MILs right to buy council house in Oxford was worth more than that. When speaking about people like Tony Blair rules like IHT are simply too easily avoided, IHT generally only catches only the unprepared which is one of the daft things about it. Blair does most of his speaking abroad so it's easy to be paid the fee into an offshore company and then keep the money offshore or buy assets with it. Tax is only due on paying the money into the UK and if Blair is smart he'll only take the money when he's resident offshore sometime in the future
class war stopped years ago,
It never ended.
House prices completely skew our economy, people spending so much of their income on homes ties up money that could be spent on stuff and activities in the non-house price economy and boost retail, manufacturing and services.
Yep, a huge amount of debt which has no productive use, and no value created from it. Part of the reason the 2007/2008 crash was so slow to recover from.
Yep, a huge amount of debt which has no productive use, and no value created from it. Part of the reason the 2007/2008 crash was so slow to recover from.
Exactly - and a nation divided into people who have taken on massive debts and feel impoverished (and quite probably are - running just to keep up with the mortgage payments, childcare and travel to work costs etc) and those who feel that they have wealth in the form of a house (but probably spent nowhere near the amount of money on it than what it's now 'worth') which they are keen to hang onto. Both looking down on the people who do not 'own' a house and have little potential for intergenerational wealth (even with the government asking for a slice).
Jambalaya, did your ex MIL actually spend £325k + on the council house she bought?
@Clover, no nothing like that. Was bought and then loan paid off. Her husband used to work for the council and she was a mother / school cleaner.
Food banks in Surrey! - what is the world coming to?
To be fair, by the time you've paid out for a new carbon santa cruz Bronson, a VW T5, a go pro4 black edition and all the rest of the kit, who has money left for food?