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Thank you both, that's interesting. So to continue the cynical/skulduggery theme - the gov introduces a policy that on the face of it has a sensible objective (fitness levels) but in reality is set at a level to deliver a hidden objective (reduce numbers). There are a limited number of alternative jobs within the service so alternatives have to be found which is not easy at that age or in the current climate. Ok, I get that bit I think. So the other side, how does any of this mean thatthe public will be put at risk as Matt Wrack seems to be claiming? He seems to be deliberately painting an image of an unfit, old person attempting to save people from a fire which seems to be quite a stretch of the imagination.?
Factor in wages that are typically higher than private sector (on average), shorter working hours, more holiday, "flexi" time, more sickness absence (paramedics on 16 days sick a year at the last count), an absence of effective performance management so no-one ever gets fired for poor performance... and the cries of "we're not valued" frankly ring a bit hollow when you compare this to fate of the many poor sods who are struggling though on low wages in the private sector, trying to bring up families on limited incomes and resigned to having to struggle through retirement in the knowledge that the biggest contribution to pension was the contribution they made as a tax payer to someone else of the same age who retired 15 years before them.
Someones been selling the lie effectively. Don't believe everything you read about the public sector/private sector perceived divide.
In a word -PRIVATISATION. The fire service is unappealing as a money making venture due to the large pension burden. If you get rid of, or significantly reduce that pension burden then you have a more attractive service for privatisation. For the public a privatised fire service would IMO mean a worse service with reduced levels of fire cover. Everyone's insurance premiums would increase accordingly and if you are unlucky enough not to be able to afford insurance then you face a hefty bill from G4FS or similar. It may even take the fire service full circle to the days of insurance fire brigades where you had to prove that you were insured before they'd put your fire out.
It may even take the fire service full circle to the days of insurance fire brigades where you had to prove that you were insured before they'd put your fire out.
Increased business for Tattoo parlours as people make sure their policies are not in the burning house!!
More than that OTR, the current pension structure would be illegal for a private company!
robdixon - Membermore sickness absence (paramedics on 16 days sick a year at the last count)
Be pretty astonishing if it wasn't high, wouldn't it? Stressful, physical job that puts you in contact with ill people all the time, where illness will have a high impact on your ability to do the job- ticks all the boxes for elevated levels of sickness.
i do the fitness testing for our watch, so can explain the fitness level calculator for our brigade a bit better. we use the chester step method, and as has been correctly pointed out, the VO pass level is 42. it all seems a bit hit and miss. im 48 and can pass it easily as i keep myself fit. yet there have been lads in their twenties, who also exercise regularly that sail a little close to the wind, and would have no hope later in their lives.
what also needs pointing out is that even if you maintain your current level of fitness, the calculator is such that it penalises you with each passing year. the software takes into account your age and the higher it is, the worse it makes your score. so in effect, you have to [i]increase[/i] your fitness levels each year to 'stand still'.
i take on board about the matt wrack comments that who wants an unfit 60 year old trying to pull you out of a building. yes, as has been pointed out, that wouldnt happen, as that unfit 60 year old would have been sacked on capability grounds and not lasted long enough to still be in that position. so yeah, mebbes bit of rhetoric there. altho it doesnt seem fair that if you cant [i]improve[/i] your fitness levels each year then youre sacked.
and no, there arent any 'office jobs' left any more for moves within the service. firefighters will have nowhere to go to carry on working within the service. i would imagine at that age they may be pleased to have the option! 😀
Thanks for the details guys - always an eye opener what you can learn here (STW) especially as the main news sites seem to struggle on this issue.
Have just read most of this, seems like some bitter people on here! If the firemen have been promised a contract shouldn't that be adhered to? If they haven't been promised then I guess the government would be within it's rights to amend it.
As for people saying this country is broke - load of crap, it's just poorly distributed - although Vodaphone are redistributing £54 billion (sorry not sure how many 0's that is) shame it's only to shareholders. No tax being paid on that deal either although that is normal for Vodaphone. And there are many other large companies avoiding paying the taxes that would enable this country to get back on track financially, they just sem to pay government ministers or high ranking civil servants.
Unfortunately with our current political system this won't change until Joe Public cannot take any more inequality and either there is a massive political reform or we have a revolution.
nacho - those "shareholders" are mostly the pension funds that hold the investments from people who are typically getting 3% employer contribution in the private sector. And you've missed the fact that returns to pension schemes started to be taxed under gordon brown - it's the reason so many final salary schemes closed. Any any income paid out when pensions vest is subject to income tax. So that means Vodafone's £54Bn will be taxed at least twice, possibly 3 times when you take into account that many pension funds declare operating profits which are taxed via corporation tax.
Robdixon - OK potentially a bad example but are you are telling me that you think big businesses pay their fair share of taxes?
I'm not saying there is an easy solution, especially when you look at it on an international scale but goverments (all of them) have better solutions available to them than breaking promises to FF's (and others)
Sorry I do seem to be moving away from the OP's original post, FWIW with my limited knowledge I support them IF the gov't are reneging on previous promises made. The FF's also have their own house to sort out, I have family in the force and know of the old "buddy" system where managers were promoted shortly before retirement purely to increase their pensions although I believe this has now been stopped.
Unfortunately with our current political system this won't change until Joe Public cannot take any more inequality and either there is a massive political reform or we have a revolution.
Joe Public are so apathetic they can't be arsed to stop shopping at Vodafone, Amazon, Starbucks et al, so I can't see a revolution ever happening.
Robdixon - OK potentially a bad example but are you are telling me that you think big businesses pay their fair share of taxes?
Companies don't pay taxes. People pay taxes. If 'companies' paid more taxes what would really happen would be shareholders (pension funds for example) would get lower returns, prices for goods would go up and employees would be paid less.
Have just read most of this, seems like some bitter people on here! If the firemen have been promised a contract shouldn't that be adhered to?
But every other occupation that has had their pension age and contributions increased has also had a contract changed. Apart from the armed forces is every occupation not going to have a pension age of at least 60 after the current reforms. More like 68 for many. Parliament can pass laws to do anything it wants. Well anything that isn't blocked by European law, but that's another argument.
I sympathise with the firefighters but I don't see them beating the govt on this one.
Factor in wages that are typically higher than private sector (on average), shorter working hours, more holiday, "flexi" time, more sickness absence (paramedics on 16 days sick a year at the last count), an absence of effective performance management so no-one ever gets fired for poor performance... and the cries of "we're not valued" frankly ring a bit hollow when you compare this to fate of the many poor sods who are struggling though on low wages in the private sector, trying to bring up families on limited incomes and resigned to having to struggle through retirement in the knowledge that the biggest contribution to pension was the contribution they made as a tax payer to someone else of the same age who retired 15 years before them.
Really higher average wages? How much would a skilled manager get for looking after a department, 15 staff and the customers?
Really not sacked for poor performance? Well I can recall staff being sacked for poor performance and others for poor sickness.
the biggest contribution to pension was the contribution they made as a tax payer to someone else of the same age who retired 15 years before them.[
Well that just proves you made it up.
I might be being thick, but how does a high VO2 Max help when you're carrying someone out of a building wearing restrictive breathing apparatus?
It seems like an irrelevant measure regardless of anything else, like performance measuring nuclear research scientists on how quickly they finish this week's Puzzler.
Yes you are. BA isn't in any way 'restrictive'
VO2 is a measure of your ability to work aerobically. Lifting, moving, that sort of thing. It also benefits certain performance athletes 😉
Drac
and bear in mind all the lowly paid private sector jobs have sweet fa pension
gusamc, from your link:
What point were you trying to make with that link?The compositions of the public and private sectors are different. Consequently differences in gross weekly earnings do not reveal differences in rates of pay for comparable jobs. For example, many of the lowest paid occupations, such as bar and restaurant staff, hairdressers, elementary sales occupations and cashiers, exist primarily in the private sector, while there are a larger proportion of graduate-level and professional occupations in the public sector.
In fact I gave an example of this back on page 4. (NHS hospitals subbing out portering, cleaning and catering jobs to ISS et al and in a stroke increasing the average wage of their employees without actually paying them a penny more).
The VO2max test is perhaps the stupidest way of engineering people needlessly out of their jobs that I've ever known.
VO2max is largely influenced by genetic factors and takes significant training to achieve even marginal increases in some people. Why not redefine the test to be along the lines of "carry this dummy down a flight of stairs" and have a simple pass fail.
New admiration for those in the fire service, had no idea your fitness test was so punitive.
The VO2 is a proposed new (and stupid) test. Not the current test. Google suggests a more reasonable test is in use currently. Involves ladder climb, dragging a 55kg casualty, equipment assembly and carry, etc.
http://www.fireservice.co.uk/recruitment/physical
Brassneck, not that thick at all really as the plan is to test this on a treadmill. Personally I can't run for toffee and get breathless relatively quickly. However put me in a boxing ring, ask me to do circuits or quick loops on a mountain bike and I can do this a lot easier. VO2 max is the volume of oxygen taken up in the blood in parts per million over a given effort level. Should it not be tested after a BA hot wear in a sterile environment? This would seem more relevant, especially if it is going to determine whether a firefighter ultimately loses his/her job!
Has anyone mentioned the fact the the new scheme the government are proposing in 2015 (that they are demanding we sign up to now or it will be retracted) has no defined contributions? So they can't even tell you how much you will be paying? I certainly wouldn't sign up for a loan or mortgage in this way and am damn well not gonna do this with my pension!! What's stopping them coming back in 5-10 years time for another bite?
irc, they're the physical tests to pass your initial application process. we don't have to do that again once we're in.
I became a retained FF last year. We now go through pretty much the same selection process as wholetime under national standards. As above, the test linked above is the practical assessment undertaken as part of the selection process.
You then need to pass a physical assessment which includes a treadmill, shuttle run or Chester Step Test to assess V02 max - these are also the methods for ongoing physical assessment in most brigades. As a few other people have mentioned, none of these are entirely infallible. I came within a whisker of failing the Chester Step Test despite being pretty fit due to relatively high heart rate at the start of the test - the doc put this down to "white coat syndrome" and signed me off on it as everything else was fine.
As a retained FF at a pretty quiet rural station I'm called out 6-8 times a month - a lot of minor calls but others will be more involved. A hot BA wear or big RTC job can be very intense and draining... a wholetime crew at a busy station could easily be dealing with the same number of shouts and more in a single shift and have my utmost respect for doing so. I love the job but its certainly not something I plan doing into my 60s...
as a member of the public i have a couple of general perceptions of what a member of the fire and rescue service might be able to achieve..
climb a ladder, carry a load, pull open a buckled car door, be able t do some first aid, drive a big red truck, and know where the fire hydryants are...
if you cant do that beacuse you weigh 20 stone or your taxi stops you getting enough excercise then i dont ecpect you to get your pension early as though you had some medical condition that prevents any work.
General perceptions.... And that's the fire services general failure, they don't market what they do very well
Probably because some of what they do and see us so horrendous you will never know or be able to comprehend it.
To be honest I think that 30 year's of attending incidents where children have squashed or fattened to a pulp, picking up body parts strewn along a road, entering buildings and pulling out bodies, attending accidents in work places where they have to extract body parts from machinery. 30 years is enough, many go on to get Jo s anyway so still contribute to the economy. Just retire from the fire job
General perceptions.... And that's the fire services general failure, they don't market what they do very well
You gotta be kidding
The FS ...PR machine is second to none !!
Oh and all those traumatic jobs you attend...you ain't there on your own fella !
You do deserve your pension and to be paid well but stop with the claptrap !
Thanks for the link but julianwilson has answered the fault with it. You need to post comparative wages.
Oh and all those traumatic jobs you attend...you ain't there on your own fella !
[i]An Ambulance transported them to hospital.[/i]
what area of the country do you want me to post a comparison for - can I suggest that we use a low cost one ?
Compare say a paramedic in the public sector with one in the private sector.
Or a Consultant Neurologist.
Or a Child Protection Social Worker.
Comparisons have to be like for like to be useful which is why the ONS produced the pdf below to explain the difference in the link you posted.
[url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/public-and-private-sector-earnings/2012/estimating-differences-in-public-and-private-sector-pay.html ]here[/url]
Compare say a paramedic in the public sector with one in the private sector.
Offshore Medic
Industry: Nursing and Auxiliary Work
Summary: Offshore medics work on fixed or mobile oil rigs and support vessels. They look after the health, safety and welfare of the crew. They often have other duties related to administration or health and safety at work.
Average salary: The figures below are only a guide. Actual pay rates may vary, depending on: where you work the size of the company or organisation you work for the demand for the job.A typical starting salary can be £25,000 to £30,000, rising to between £38,000 and 40,000 with experience. Salary includes allowance for working offshore plus a bonus scheme and pension. Recent vacancies for temporary contracts have ranged between £250 and £350 per day.
Our paramedics are Band 5 so £21,176-£27,625 as a comparison.
A FF Trainee Firefighter starts at £21,583 - a fully competent Ff £28,766. Such as much.
No shift allowances are paid for working weekend/nights.
imho to do a fair compare you need:
- area (as private sector salaries vary considerably)
- FULL package details (hours, pension, perks, otime + rates, weekly hours worked, holiday, flexitime, etc etc etc etc etc)
* don't compare employee, with self employed etc etc
can you tell me which are private vs public here
http://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/paramedic
Compare say a paramedic in the public sector with one in the private sector.
Or a Consultant Neurologist.
Or a Child Protection Social Worker.
Comparisons have to be like for like to be useful which is why the ONS produced the pdf below to explain the difference in the link you posted.
its often said that private sector teachers get paid less than state, anyone got any evidence for this?
Yeah the lack shift allowance is what made a big difference. Agenda for change was a good thing for Ambulance staff it boosted our wages right up, before Agenda for change a Paramedic wage was £21k per year.
Bruneep
A double Couple of questions the fully qualified FFs
Are they graduates ?
Registered with an external governing body ?
Do they work autonomously ? ie lone working ?
Bruneep[b]Couple of questions[/b] the fully qualified FFs
Are they graduates ?
Registered with an external governing body ?
Do they work autonomously ? ie lone working ?
That's 4 🙄
So the private sector wins- yaaay! Before you talk about pensions the offshorr guys can sometimes claim tax back, get bonuses and other financial incentives that more than make up for not having a "gold plated" pension.
Agree with the PR comments though. The fireys are always very keen to get pts details from us. Have been at jobs where someone walks out to the ambulance without any help and the next day the story in the paper was that they pulled someone out and gave first aid prior to the ambulance arrived.
Dont get me wrong, I wish the ambulance service/s were as proactive but they just aren't very good at promoting themselves..
There fixed it 😆
can you tell me which are private vs public here
http://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/paramedic
They all look to be private sector serving the NHS for over the phone diagnosis and triage.
Are they graduates ?Registered with an external governing body ?
Do they work autonomously ? ie lone working ?
I answer yes to all of them but not a FF. 😀
Think this comparison and division is damaging to all and unfair to many. I couldn't do my wife's job, she will readily admit she cant do what I do, I could never be a soldier, my dad couldn't hack being a salesmen.
Yet most of us are needed to make our world go round.
So.....
Are they graduates ? [b]Yes some are[/b]
Registered with an external governing body ? [b]Yes they get a SQA/NVQ [/b]
Do they work autonomously ? ie lone working ? [b]some of the Fire Safety/Com ed boys n girls do. we are not allowed to take a fire appliance on yer tod[/b]
What point scoring are you trying to prove here?
None mate
I think you've answered them just fine cheers
SQA NVQ isn't a governing body is it? He's talking about HCPC for us they over see what we should be doing.
He's not point scoring the reason we got a big pay boost was that we all work autonomously and we are a recognised protected title meaning we all have a minimum standard of training .
Graduate will become standard currently the trend is undergraduate level but I'll suspect that'll change to BHSc.
db - one offers a NHS pension - so that suggests to me it's public
question for you, how much of a DC pension pot do you need to get a £10,000 a year pension (at age 60, rpi linked, with a spouse element/5yr gtee)
another question - if you had a pot of money to retire on, say £X and you wanted to know how much to spend per year can you tell me the equation you'd use to make sure you were ok ?
Bracky
I'm not a firefighter!
He's talking about HCPC for us they over see what we should be doing.
So what you should be doing and actually do are different? 😉
So what you should be doing and actually do are different?
Not me but those that have and been found get struck off the register.
db - one offers a NHS pension - so that suggests to me it's public
It might suggest it but it doesn't make it so, if you open up the advert it says:
[i]
Leading company requires Clinical Advisors to provide support to the new 111 service based in Peterborough. This is a 24 hours a day 365 days a year call handling service, that will enable call handler to triage and match the patient with the service in their local area that can deliver the care they need.[/i]
As a tip if it's NHS then it will have a payband in most instances eg. Paramedic Band 5, not a salary.
Note this is not true for all NHS jobs but most of them, and it would be for clinical posts such as these.
I also think it's very dangerous to draw conclusions based on assumptions.
No idea on the NHS pension, mind - probably agreed between the private provider and the Trust.
No idea with the other stuff tbh.
Too early in privatisation of the publc sector to say what will happen to the difference in wages for [b]like for like[/b] posts. (examples posted here are clutching at straws IMHO)
Give it a few years and you will be able to look at organisations sold out to private enterprise which were previously NHS or LA and see if private side wages have changed. In nursing and midwifery this is unlikely as there aren't enough of them and at some point if companies who have taken over NHS services reduce wages or replace leaving staff with less senior ones, market forces may well prevail and staff will stay in or migrate back to the NHS where they are paid what they were always paid, with maybe some adjustment for more sparsely populated areas where the density of posts is lower and folk are less inclined to have to move house/town/kids schools unless they really suffer.
I may be putting the cat amongst the pigeons with regards to education in wondering how you can adjust for smaller class sizes and use of tutors (as opposed to B.Edded or PGCE'd teachers) in private education and academies to make like for like comparisons with you typical state secondary or primary teacher who may or may not be supported by TA's or SEN staff.
At the moment google confirms that permanent [b]like for like[/b] nursing jobs are paid the same in private sector as NHS (agency/temp/locum wages again are an unrealistsic comparison), and actually slightly more plus perks for nursing managers in places that have been private since way before the Health And Social Care Act (eg Priory group, Huntercombe group, St Andrew's).
Anyone know what the wage differences for officers and governors/managers are like in privately run prisons versus state ones?
julian, db
can you stop talking about wages/salary and start working in 'package' terms - do you really not understand the difference or are you just unwilling to do an actual fair comparison ?
"At the moment google confirms that permanent like for like nursing jobs are paid the same in private sector as NHS"
Right for each job type, please supply the following (and yes this incomplete but it's the best I can do at short notice";
- hours per week
- flexihours available?
- overtime - rate and possibility of getting
- number of days holiday
- pension (is it final salary/DB or DC, what % does employer contribute, how much does employee contribute), does it have a spouse element ?
- death in service benefit ?
- perks - subsidised canteen, free uniform, free parkin etc etc etc
- sick pay details
- do you have to do shift
- antisocial hours payments
- etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
so *assumming** from your basic statement "At the moment google confirms that permanent like for like nursing jobs are paid the same in private sector as NHS" I would say that the public sector job is better as the salaries are the same BUT a final salary pension (even a reduced one) will be more generous/better than the DC one..... but to be fair that is an assumption
gusamc - Memberjulian, db
New one on me: David Bowie? Douche Bag? Don't bother?
gusamc, the examples I can give are the best we have at the moment and many degrees (did you see what I did there? 😉 ) more useful than your "everyone in private versus everyone in public sector" link earlier. FWIW it is also hugely easier to measure pay and conditions when they are not modified by company cars, bonuses, Christmas bonuses, staff parties/pissups, gym membership, electronic devices, staff discounts on whatever it is you sell, share options, sponsored/funded training/secondments/higher education and so on... Nice to see you taking such an interest in the details now. 😉
What the private sector is arguably better at than the NHS is putting a price on a job without the constraints of a nationally agreed pay scale with only 9* pay bands to choose from.(actually its a tiny bit more complicated, call it 12) But such is the market that with it being so close to the implementation of the health and social care act (and the privatisation of more and more previously nhs-run services) that there are still relatively few posts that exist that are directly comparable to an NHS couterpart. Those that have been [s]privatised[/s] tendered out recently (locally I am thinking Childrens community services in Devon which was Devon Partnership NHS trust and is now Virgin Healthcare) are still subject to TUPE and no doubt the employer not wishing to rock the boat too soon. No good putting in a low bid at tender if half your staff leave before you get going.
I started typing but then deleted a whole load of answers to your list up there as there are still so many variables and it was turning into even more of an "I struggle with long sentences" post. [edit: I am sure this is old news but stw has autocorrected 'i struggle with long sentences' from where i typed a more well known and overused acronym. 😆 ]
Suffice to say that at the moment (and you need to consider here that there are fewer nurses nationally than posts for them to work in), nurses don't return to similar/near identical posts in the NHS from private hospitals for the take home pay, NHS-wide t&c's or the pension any more than they leave the NHS to 'go private' because they are envious of the paid-for staff parties, excellent in-service training and sponsorship for training/education or free gym memberships. (your big list omitted those. Oh and I am well envious of the first two. My next post-reg but not masters level course will be of huge help to my service, but will still cost me £1800 and all my own time an 8 months course)
If you are really bored and wish to see the balance of what we do know versus the variables from one NHS trust to the next and one private healthcare provider to the next then I will see if it is quiet enough at 4am on my night shift tonight (which by the way I will be getting paid the same per hour for as I do on a saturday daytime) to for me to conjour up some links to various employers t&cs and pension schemes and oblige you with a better answer.
If i hadn't worked in the field for 14 years I would be just wondering about these things (like i did for prisons and schools on the last page) not offering them as examples.
[url=
kemp against London fire brigade cuts[/url]
Video showing how quick and how intense a front room fire can easily be, all this bravado about walking into fires before we turn up - you were lucky, very bloody lucky
Cant argue with that video...frightening
seen the effects of a fire in a kitchen and it destroyed the kitchen and living room of my neighbours flat and almost killed him, luckily i kicked his door in and dragged him out before the fire service arived and they are based a quarter of a mile away.
Oh and national strikes are now planned for september 25 for 4 hours.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24129141
[i]Anyone know what the wage differences for officers and governors/managers are like in privately run prisons versus state ones?[/i]
Who cares about the prison service? Not many on here that's for sure, the majority don't even have a clue about it & what it entails.
*waits expectantly for the 1st & very predictable Mr McKay quip*
(Dunno what the pay scales/packages are for private vs public sectors)
Who cares about the prison service?
I do. I expect a regime based not on lenience and laxity but on discipline, hard work and blind, unquestioning obedience. Feet will not touch the floor. Lives will be made a misery.
[img] 
?v=1288382543[/img]
Any questions?
Oh and national strikes are now planned for september 25 for 4 hours
I take it you didn't read it?
England and Wales only, not national.
I take it you didn't read it?England and Wales only, not national
Since all this devolution,own parliment stuff started ,scotland hasnt been sen as part of the uk plc by many scots, or us welsh.
They obviously got bought out, by their promised new governmnet, or basicly dont rock the boat and be nice and quiet, and hopefully we will get the right to our own governmnet.