So should some fire personel be allowed to retire early due to not being able to reach fitness levels required for their jobs

if that's what they signed up for yes.

Lots of folk have to look for other jobs once they aren't fit/able, but still not at pension age - and pay taxes so that Firemen can retire (very) early on a decent-enough pension.

I'm afraid it's reality.

Although most other jobs don't have such a high risk of being killed or injured.

Lots of folk have to look for other jobs once they aren't fit/able, but still not at pension age - and pay taxes so that Firemen can retire (very) early on a decent-enough pension.

I'm afraid it's reality.

its also the reality that they can go on strike to protect their interests

Although most other jobs don't have such a high risk of being killed or injured.

[img] [/img]

The top four on that list (blue bars) need a reasonable level of fitness too.
They don't get to retire early just because they get middle aged and fat.

Glad they are striking. They do a harder job than most, get shit on more than most and pay tons into their pension scheme (so deserve them).

This link suggests UK firefighters fatality rate was 2.7 per 100'000 in 2004-2007. So safer than the average in the chart above.

http://www.firetactics.com/IRMP_MODERNIZATION.htm

Lots of folk have to look for other jobs once they aren't fit/able, but still not at pension age

That's hardly relevant is it ?

I mean a lot of folk don't have a job, a lot of folk are up to their eyeballs in debt, a lot of folk don't have anywhere to live, a lot of folk are hungry.

Should we therefore conclude that it would be absolutely fine if firefighters lost their jobs, got up to their eyeballs in debt, became homeless, and went hungry ?

The top four on that list (blue bars) need a reasonable level of fitness too.
They don't get to retire early just because they get middle aged and fat.

a fat old construction worker will just build my house slower a fat old firefighter might not get me and my family out of that house when its on fire in time.

The top four occupations? There's an awful lot of overweight lorry drivers, excavator operatives, tractor drivers and number 4, just one thing to say to that Eric Pickles! Since 2006 construction industry deaths have been declining steadily (except 2008, I think).

So what are the actual proposals compared to the current system?

Will they be striking in their second jobs too? 😈

Are they not striking because theyre being asked/told to contribute four times their current employee contributions but for smaller lump sums and an older retirement age?
Still, at least they're classed as an emergency service, the ambulance service is only classed as an "essential" service! Because of this and CMD's latest "reforms" I'll probably still be working when im 68 which should be a right laugh going to a job 4 flights up, never mind having to get the pt back down..
Still, back to the OP, fair play to them- at least they seem to have a union that cares about them!
Re the chart above- where are emergency responders? It also foesnt take into acvount health problems caused or exacerbated because of their occipation; bad backs, gubbed knees etc..

Conflicted on this, not least because my brother is a firefighter. I'm almost always anti strikes based on pay and conditions- if you think you're worth more then find someone who will pay you more. However, the pension/retirement age thing here does seem to be closely linked to a genuine safety concern. If nothing else I'm glad an important issue will get some close scrutiny.

if you think you're worth more then find someone who will pay you more.

kind of tricky with that particular job

20 years ago I invested in a pension scheme paying 11% of my salary, recently increased to 12%, which equates to well over £300 a month, considerably more than most public/private pension schemes. This was on the proviso that I could retire after 30 years service in a very physical and mentally demanding job. We are now being forced to work to 60yo and face sacking therefore loss of pension if we don't meet minimum fitness standards. Wouldn't you feel a little short changed?

I'd feel motivated to stay fit.

Wouldn't you feel a little short changed?

I'd be right pissed off.

A person's health isnt always something you can control though is it? You can be as fit as a fiddle in your fifties onwards but it wont matter for shit if some wee tosser chucks a half brick at you at a job though eh?

Don't worry, by the time you reach 60 H&S will have stopped you from entering a blazing building anyway, so you won't have to stay fit 😉

If I' had known how much the public hated the fire service I would never have joined. I thought I was doing the right thing in transferring 12 years of my previous pension into the firefighters scheme, now it turns out I'm a greedy lazy bastard for thinking I should receive it when I was promised.

now it turns out I'm a greedy lazy bastard for thinking I should receive it when I was promised.

some people here hate anyone striking, this place will go nuclear when I go on strike later in the year!!!

You'd think after the last strike they'd learn a lesson, public perception changed of the fire service changed massively when the world continued to spin. After that is when the changes snowballed. It's a necessary service but it costs a lot of money. The juicy pension scheme of old was crazy but nice for those that got it.

Yes I'd be annoyed at the pension part as I am with ours but if your not fit enough to do your job then you shouldn't be doing it.

If I' had known how much the public hated the fire service I would never have joined. I thought I was doing the right thing in transferring 12 years of my previous pension into the firefighters scheme, now it turns out I'm a greedy lazy bastard for thinking I should receive it when I was promised.

Quite a lot of the public are stupid, so don't worry about it 🙂

[i]Should we therefore conclude that it would be absolutely fine if firefighters lost their jobs, got up to their eyeballs in debt, became homeless, and went hungry ? [/i]

No, but since its us the taxpayer (or is that me, the taxpayer Ernie?) that will be paying - why are we subsidising them over and above what we can get.

Well I've lost 7 years of pension due to my previous employer folding, taking their pension scheme with them and I'm not striking......

why are we subsidising them over and above what we can get.

I'm sure you could have been a firefighter if you had tried hard enough.

Well I've lost 7 years of pension due to my previous employer folding, taking their pension scheme with them and I'm not striking......

are you in a union? You should write to your MP or something, or did you just role over and take it? Just because you haven't done anything to protect your interests doesn't mean others shouldn't.

but since its us the taxpayer (or is that me, the taxpayer Ernie?)

Why are you asking me if I pay taxes ? Why wouldn't I be ?

Were you struggling and thought that insinuating that I might not be paying my taxes would be a useful, although rather desperate, distraction ?

Good luck to them ...I have never really understood why it's legal for employerd to change terms of a contract after signing it but if an employee tries to that's illegal

Should they strike Ernie? Do they have your support?

No, but since its us the taxpayer (or is that me, the taxpayer Ernie?) that will be paying - why are we subsidising them over and above what we can get.

Another way of looking at that would be why can't private sector pensions match the public sector offerings.

It might also be pertinent to add that [i]not[/i] being a firefighter means you can get [i]more[/i] than they get. You just have to make the right choices. So why not make yours and let other people make theirs.

[i]'Yes I'd be annoyed at the pension part as I am with ours but if your not fit enough to do your job then you shouldn't be doing it'[/i]

I have no worries about my own fitness, not withstanding illness or a brick to the head, but it's not just about me and **** everyone else is it?
would you want two 59yo men or women (yes that is very possible) attempting to rescue your family from a house fire?
not me pal

how come crikeys comment was ignored it's the most relevant comment in the whole thread.

they do just fine in my experience .

i have an issue with this 'early ' retirement question.. the govt says i can have a retirement pension at 68 so thats when i can retire and yet some ( mostly public sector workers) seem to think they have the right to retire and claim a full index linked pension from as early 47. and then go back to work elsewhere or even return to there old role or one similar.

if you have to be 68 to retire the govt should nt have to pay any pensions until your 68 until then pull your socks up and dont expect someone else to support your golfing holidays..

When I joined at 20 I was able to complete my 30 years service and retire at an age I could enjoy my pension, the pension age was changed to 55 and now 60, I'm still in the same scheme I joined in 2001, they've just changed goalposts again and again.

The required fitness levels for a 50+ year old male will be incredibly hard to achieve, for a female firefighter they will be impossible. Don't believe me? Look at the governments own report!

Therefore you fail your fitness you're sacked on capability, so now my pension is deferred to my 65th birthday?

Add onto that we are the second highest contributors in any public sector scheme and the contributions continue to increase, I'll be working longer for less and unlikely to retire by completing my full service.

I love my job, truly I do, I put my heart and soul into providing as professional service as I can, I have placed myself in danger to save others and I've lost colleagues who did the same. I've cut people from vehicles and given them another chance in this world and I've dealt with the ones that were sadly too far gone.

All I'm asking is the pension I signed up to and have paid into, planned my family's life around is continued not raped to support the governments coffers while they look after themselves.

Firefighters to strike in september, over working hours

Really? Its got nothing to do with hours worked.

It about being robbed of a pension that I and the government agreed to.

we dont get a gold plate pension, if you want to see gold plated look no futher than your local MP. I currently pay approx 13.2% a month £350ish for my pension how much are you paying?

The physical stress on a person inside a fire compartment @ 800c + wearing full fire kit. Now it is well documented the the body does deteriorate with older age that is a fact that not even you could argue. To ask a 60yr old person to do this is madness.

I'm 48 and reasonably fit but I'm finding it continually harder and harder to recover from this.

[url= http://www.fbu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/NPA-Review-12-Jan-2013.pdf ]Williams report that the government commissioned but ignored the findings[/url]

Summary of the expected effects of health on the ability of firefighters
to serve beyond age 55
7.8.1 A mortality rate of around 7 per thousand per annum is expected for men
firefighters aged 55-59 and 3.2 per thousand for women firefighters per annum.
7.8.2 Heart disease is expected to lead to around 5 per 1000 men retiring per annum
age 55-59, an increase of around 3 per 1000 in age group 50-54. For women it is
expected to lead to around one per 1000 retiring per annum age 55-59, an
insignificant increase from age group 50-54.
7.8.3 Stroke expected to lead to around 1 per 1000 men retiring per annum age 55-
60, an insignificant increase from age group 50-55. For women it is expected to lead
to around one per 1000 retiring per annum, an insignificant increase from age group
50-55.
7.8.4 Cancers are expected to lead to around 0.6 per 1000 men retiring per annum
age 55-59, an increase of around 0.3 per 1000 in age group 50-54. For women it is
expected to lead to around 0.3 per 1000 retiring per annum, no increase from age
group 50-55.
7.8.5 Respiratory diseases are expected to lead to around 3 per 1000 firefighters
retiring per annum age 55-59, an insignificant increase from age group 50-54.
7.8.6 Hip osteoarthritis is expected to lead to around 0.5 per 1000 firefighters retiring
per annum age 55-59, an insignificant increase from age group 50-54.
7.8.7 Knee osteoarthritis expected to lead to more ill health retirements than hip
osteoarthritis but the rate cannot be estimated from population statistics. The
available statistics suggest an increase of 25% between age group 50-54 and age
group 55-59.
7.8.8 Back problems are not expected to lead to any significant change in ill health
retirements between age groups 50-54 and 55-59.
7.8.9 Shoulder problems are not expected to lead to any significant change in ill
health retirements between age groups 50-54 and 55-59.
7.8.10 Common mental disorders are not expected to lead to any significant change in
ill health retirements between age groups 50-54 and 55-59.
7.8.11 PTSD is not expected to lead to any significant change in ill health retirements
between age groups 50-54 and 55-59.
7.8.12 Alcohol and drug abuse is not expected to lead to any significant change in ill
health retirements between age groups 50-54 and 55-59

So if you become unfit before age 60, under the new scheme you can kiss goodbye to your pension. until you reach the state retirement age you will lose £000's

What would you do put up a fight or roll over and get a shafting whilst doffing your hat to the thieving ConDems?

@ crikey, so what if I have a 2nd job? I pay taxes on this. Is there a law against 2nd jobs? Many Mps have more than 3 or 4 jobs apart for being an MP. This dispute is about pension not about wages or hrs worked

As I learned from the last strike 2003 joe public/ STW'ers just believe the government/red top spin machine, already the lies are being spouted forth. Remember when its in the tabloids it may not all be true!

Presently I have 6.5 yrs to go or 11.5yrs and an extra £21K in pension contributions to go.

When I joined at 20 I was able to complete my 30 years service and retire at an age I could enjoy my pension, the pension age was changed to 55 and now 60, I'm still in the same scheme I joined in 2001, they've just changed goalposts again and again.

The required fitness levels for a 50+ year old male will be incredibly hard to achieve, for a female firefighter they will be impossible. Don't believe me? Look at the governments own report!

Therefore you fail your fitness you're sacked on capability, so now my pension is deferred to my 65th birthday?

Add onto that we are the second highest contributors in any public sector scheme and the contributions continue to increase, I'll be working longer for less and unlikely to retire by completing my full service.

I love my job, truly I do, I put my heart and soul into providing as professional service as I can, I have placed myself in danger to save others and I've lost colleagues who did the same. I've cut people from vehicles and given them another chance in this world and I've dealt with the ones that were sadly too far gone.

All I'm asking is the pension I signed up to and have paid into, planned my family's life around is continued not raped to support the governments coffers while they look after themselves.

You forget that the people here complaining don't give a monkeys about what you've said. All they care about is how you are costing them PERSONALLY.

This country is full of turds who think this way.

This country is full of turds who think this way.

So how come the Tories failed to win the last general election then ?

Selfish turds are a dying breed.

So how come the Tories failed to win the last general election then ?

Which tories? The blue ones, the red ones, or the yellow ones?

@ crikey, so what if I have a 2nd job? I pay taxes on this. Is there a law against 2nd jobs? Many Mps have more than 3 or 4 jobs apart for being an MP. This dispute is about pension not about wages or hrs worked

I have no worries about my own fitness, not withstanding illness or a brick to the head, but it's not just about me and **** everyone else is it?
would you want two 59yo men or women (yes that is very possible) attempting to rescue your family from a house fire?
not me pal

I agree but I would because when I'm 68 I'll be expected to carry the ever growing fatter people downstairs. Add the ever increasing workload, I've attended 10 incidents since 11am, I'm not sure how I'll get on.

However the Fire Service pension of old is very good no matter how much copying and pasting you do. It had to change sadly as did ours but yes it's unfair for anyone 2/3 into their service to be shafted I agree.

Which tories? The blue ones, the red ones, or the yellow ones?

The blue ones mate. Selfish people who don't give a monkeys instinctively vote Tory.

People who vote for the same policies repackaged as New Labour do so because they have been effectively hoodwinked, or feel that they can't find an another alternative.

And yes, some thought they had with the LibDems.

Will they be striking in their second jobs too?

No they are self employed window cleaners

Right so the fact that you get a good wage

Its not about wages tho.

Good wage, yup! my take home is just over £1.5K I do have apart time job to supplement this and pay taxes on this again is this illegal? I stay in the most expensive city in Scotland and my fire service wage does not the cover the cost of living here.

It is still legal for me to withdraw my labour in a legal strike action.

This link suggests UK firefighters fatality rate was 2.7 per 100'000 in 2004-2007. So safer than the average in the chart above.

http://www.firetactics.com/IRMP_MODERNIZATION.htm
br />

Or it could be to do with the skill and competence of those in the fire sevice . . .

Fully support those in the fire service.

Remember, they go inside the burning building whilst you run out.

It is still legal for me to withdraw my labour in a legal strike action.

so just roll over and accept? righto then 🙄

what I do on my rota days off is up to me. I don't lay bricks that sounds like too much hard work 😉

I don't have an answer on how to not roll over to be honest but would I fek go on strike if I had been given your job.
Apart from my feelings on the strike best of luck with the pension battle

The problem is many people signed up to do a job for a set period and then retire earlier than others, and now the ones in power want to extend those hours, to save costs.

But if the fire men do withdraw their labour as is allowed in law(strike)then there is a good probability people wil die,or homes or buisnesses will burn to the ground, and that will feed a media frenzy and possibly calls for the privatisation of the fire services,lots of money to be made from atending rtc, lift breakdowns and fires,etc, etc,but then who pays these costs, yep we do through added insurance costs, but we get lots of logod fire engines, and part time firemen,with management possibly picking which sort of fire or emergency they attend., eg house fire, insurance cover, bonfire or grass fire , no insutrance cobver, until it starts burning a house or factory down.

Or it could be to do with the skill and competence of those in the fire sevice . . .

Fully support those in the fire service.

Remember, they go inside the burning building whilst you run out.

The competence of the Fire service was never questioned. That doesn't alter the fact that it is not an especially dangerous occupation.

As for the burning building - I have gone into one when the fire service hadn't arrived yet.

They've had it good for far too long!

Lost my sympathy I'm afraid... They should seriously take a look at what they have compared to others and then shut the hell up moaning.

I pulled on to a fire station car park the other day ... Jeez it was packed with builders, window cleaner, first aid training vans!!

Second jobs!!

And before anyone asks how I know they all belonged to firefighters...!?

They had all been polished!!

But if the fire men do withdraw their labour as is allowed in law(strike)then there is a good probability people wil die

So what was the death toll in previous disputes then ?

And how does that compare to deaths caused every time governments carry out cuts in essential services ?

pulled on to a fire station car park the other day ... Jeez it was packed with builders, window cleaner, first aid training vans!!

charity van wash, training day for the self employed to learn first aid,our local fire station used to be a base for training courses.

If the firefighters are pushed into striking they have my support

Project...

Oh yeah right of course..!

Funny how they were in the non visitor parking area.

Jeez it was packed with builders, window cleaner, first aid training vans!!

They actually had 'window cleaner' written on the side of the van ? These firefighters are daft, aren't they ?

Of course I believe you.

the pension I signed up for was shafted including my right to retire early, increased contributions etc

the good news for me was that my Unions GMB, Unison and a third I don't remember all recommended that their members bend over and accept the proposals

firefighters do an important job as do many others but they are not going to get much sympathy these days

One thought is that if fitness is so important then firefighters should be on contracts similar to the forces where there is an expectation that you do your time and then move to another career

Whats the forces pension like?

Theres no doubt that there is a lot of downtime in their job and because they work long shifts they get a lot of time off.. but to be fair- most of the nhs work similar shifts. Whats wrong with having a second job?
Strikings a tough one though.. times have changed and if they go out the public will probably turn on them- no doubt being fuelled by the redtops and the tory pr machine. In saying that I can see a general strike happeni g in the next year or two.. so many folk getting shafted, eventually they wont be able to swallow it. I for one do not look forward to that day.
I have a lot of sympathy for them though, especially the ones that are only a few years (or were) from retirement. Heard one minister state that the pension scheme will still be much more generous than a private sector pension.. not a valid comparison at all and just another attempt to turn folk against them.
Edit- what ernie said up there..

Having done a very small time poxy offshore course where I had to put out a controlled fire, drag a hose around and pull out a body, bearing in mind I was shown around the very basic building before hand I came out with a whole new respect for the Fire Service. There Emergency's are real, they dont get to know where the rooms are or furniture is in the building to have to climb over and around whislt in a boiling hot room filled with smoke trying to remeber there way back out

If the Fire Service have to deal with me,family or friends I would rather they turned up with out the worry of being ****ed over for their payed into and earnt pension and were just able to consentrate on the job

I agree with matt22 above, when a fireman rescues you or your loved one from a certain death you will be happy to pay them whatever they want..
Lets have a good argument about mp's wages shall we?

And before anyone asks how I know they all belonged to firefighters...!?
They had all been polished!!

Hahaha!

They've had it good for far too long!

Lost my sympathy I'm afraid... They should seriously take a look at what they have compared to others and then shut the hell up moaning.

I pulled on to a fire station car park the other day ... Jeez it was packed with builders, window cleaner, first aid training vans!!

Second jobs!!

And before anyone asks how I know they all belonged to firefighters...!?

They had all been polished!!

Probably all retainers ? Part timers who had come from their full time paid jobs to man the appliance ?

some people here hate anyone striking, this place will go nuclear when I go on strike later in the year!!!

A firefighter strike will be nothing more than a well timed reminder that not only "rich tories" are greedy.

You would think that they were the only ones who had to change their working conditions and pension arrangements.
I have never seen such a backward-looking, change-fearing and insular bunch of 'professionals' in my life. Actually - tell a lie - those muppets in the tubedrivers union with the thug at the helm.
Firemen have protected a cushy number for a long time. The last time they went on strike saw the Armed Forces doing just about as good a job with less resources, less hassle and a far better attitude to change and flexibility. The firefighters will be their own undoing.

I say scrap all pension in public sector in order to be fair to all.

If anyone wants to have a pension then just contribute to his/her own private pension fund or saving. Eat less, starve a bit and enjoy less.

The state really needs to tax less ...

🙄

You would think that they were the only ones who had to change their working conditions and pension arrangements.

Wait, don't tell me...........we're all in this together - right ?

Bankers, who through their own personal greed, incompetence, and live for today cavalier attitude, caused the worse economic mess for eighty years, are bearing the brunt of the sacrifices which are being made today ?

.

The firefighters will be their own undoing.

A bit like those "muppets in the tubedrivers union" you mentioned ?

TooTall - Member

You would think that they were the only ones who had to change their working conditions and pension arrangements.

Nope. Where does the mentality come from, that if one person has been shat on it's OK to shit on everyone else? Someone else was unable to defend themselves, or caved in, therefore everyone else should? Hell with that. The saddest thing about the race to the bottom is how enthusiastic people are about achieving first place.

Whats the forces pension like?

Getting worse - less for longer served.

It isn't about a race to the bottom. It is about looking at a larger older population and realising that the good old days cannot perpetuate. I don't think MPs earn anything close to what they pay, but the public sector has managed to cling on to fairly gold plated pensions for far longer than most others.

I come from a family that has never had the ability to strike in any job. Somehow we all have done OK so far.

It isn't about a race to the bottom.

But your justification was that everyone else is having their conditions cut so the fire service should too.

That's pretty much the textbook definition of a race to to bottom in the current context.

Try again.

I come from a family that has never had the ability to strike in any job.

Well, that's unfortunate for you. But I'm not sure what bearing it has on the current topic

Where does the mentality come from, that if one person has been shat on it's OK to shit on everyone else?

IMO it comes from people who want to validate their own successes based on the situation of other people. Maybe it's a self esteem thing. I find the "it's my taxes" argument a bit weak too, since the private sector generally has an impact on your income too.

for those that think we have enough time for second jobs..... thats probably true, theres a 3 or 4 day break where we can potentially do other stuff, rather than just a weekend break.
personally, i [i]need[/i] a second job, we're spending more than we earn to the tune of £300 per month, and thats without tv packages, phone contracts etc!! im even down to one bike now, and about to move into a smaller place in an attempt to stop the money haemorrhaging (sp). as has been mentioned already, the moneys not great.

but..... i dont think i could physically do another job. our brigade have implemented a new shift system where i do either 96 or 120 hrs at a time, covering all shouts in that spell. believe me, when i get back i need those 3 or 4 days off!
the talk is that other brigades will be following suit soon as its a great money saver for them. 2 watches doing the work of 4, for a bit extra pay.

sorry, t'was off on a bit of a tangent to the pension subject but just the same as someone in a 'regular job' working their weekend. yes its possible, but would you want to/be capable of doing? wheres the quality of life? :-/

our brigade have implemented a new shift system where i do either 96 or 120 hrs at a time, covering all shouts in that spell

What's the shift pattern it sounds awful? What's your average number of call outs?

we do a 4/4, 4/4, 5/3 rotating shift pattern, the 5th day to travel to other stations in the county to provide resilience cover. we would also be expected to cover overnight at those stations. we stay the whole 4 or 5 days at a time, positive working hours are 7.30am to 6.30pm. we then stay in a 'pod' which is a converted house joined onto the station. we're on alerters for the night cover and have to be out the door within 5 mins at night.

ironically, most of our callouts are at night as our station is in 'scrotesville', so a lot of arson callouts, sometimes as many as 6 in the night. sometimes we get quiet nights tho, theres no real pattern to it.
not many shouts in the day really, but we do a lot of training, we're boat rescue too, so always looking for different launch points, rescue techniques etc.

Sounds terrible but how did this go through, we abandoned on call at night about 8 years ago because it was breaking working time regulations.

firemen, tube drivers , posties.. all union dominated tradionally male white workforce that has failed to move with the times. millions are accepting longer working hours / less pay/ no pay rises/ less generous pension schemes/ later retirement.

why? not because the tories says so but because the buffons Blair and Brown blew every penny the country had and will have for the foreseeable future.